Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness - May 2022

[JPL]

Well, it took 3 phases to get to Endgame, so I can imagine the climax of this lot will be at the end of phase 6.

[Alex W.]

The previous phases each had a clear arc to them though. Phase 1: there are superheroes and they will form a team to stop a magic rock. Phase 2 riffed on the possibilities created by that team and phase 3 on its collapse, with more magic rocks drawing it all together.

 

If we’re starting off another big three-phase arc I’m not sure what launching off point we’re getting, story wise, with phase 4. They seem to have just told half of the directors that they’ve got have a multiverse and otherwise everyone’s doing their own thing. Which is fine, I’m ok with a post-phases Marvel.

[Benny]

Apparently one of the statues

 

Spoiler

In the Illuminati foyer was actually of Xena: Warrior Princess. I did think it looked remarkably similar.

 

[monkeydog]

1 hour ago, Benny said:

Apparently one of the statues

 

  Reveal hidden contents

In the Illuminati foyer was actually of Xena: Warrior Princess. I did think it looked remarkably similar.

 

 

[Popo]

4 hours ago, Benny said:

Apparently one of the statues

 

  Hide contents

In the Illuminati foyer was actually of Xena: Warrior Princess. I did think it looked remarkably similar.

 

Yet another Ancient Greek artefact the British Museum is housing. 

 

Spoiler

The Illuminati HQ was filmed in the British Museum (wifi).

 

[Alex W.]

Spoiler

Which was kind of weird given that the actual building also exists in Moon Knight. Like when you have a character and their actual actor in the same continuity 

 

[Pete]

Thought this was surprisingly uninventive and not very interesting, with only a short scene delivering on the promise that a multi-verse plot should. The heart of the story - Wanda dealing with her shit - has already happened in Wandavision so it didn't really have much impact. 

[Nick R]

1 hour ago, Alex W. said:

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Which was kind of weird given that the actual building also exists in Moon Knight. Like when you have a character and their actual actor in the same continuity 

 

 

Plus Black Panther used "The Museum of Great Britain" for its scene confronting the British Empire's theft of artifacts. (Filmed at The High Museum of Art in Atlanta.)

 

And Eternals had the Natural History Museum.

[Chewylegs]

I watched this for the first time in Saturday and really didn't think much of it.  Enjoyable in parts, awful in others, and a lot like a standard horror film rather than a multi universe I was expecting.

 

For some reason I've felt compelled to watch it again, which I just did.  Second time round it's much more enjoyable.  I think on second viewing you know the nonsense that is coming up which for me seemed to help the whole thing hang together better.  Yes there is some blindingly shit dialogue, some serious hand-holding which is annoying, the reason for Wanda's actions are flimsy and the multiverse is used in a pretty boring way, but it works on a repeat viewing.  The Evil Dead bits work, the horror works, my lack of awareness of America Chavez isn't such a problem either.  The cameos are fun, although Captain Marvel is fucking atrocious and I have no idea why Captain Carter needed to stand up and chuck a shield at Strange when she was perfectly fine sitting down for her introduction!

 

It's no where near perfect and I much prefer the first Dr Strange, but it's certainly not as bad as I first thought.

[Jimmyzilla]

On 09/05/2022 at 16:03, Eighthours said:

The only part of the arc that didn't ring true to me was how Vision was nowhere. So who's the father? The kids are the ones from Wandavision, so it must be Vision. Was he killed fighting Thanos in the other universes too? I understand that Vision would be another element in an already packed movie and his inclusion would pose its own problems (eg. he would want to protect 'his' Wanda), so I can see why he wasn't there, but it's surprising that he wasn't mentioned in dialogue, whether from the alternate Wanda or our Wanda, who appears to have completely got over her massive grief at his death with no subsequent mention of it.

 

That being said, I did really enjoy the film. It didn't quite develop into the out and out classic that the stellar first 30 minutes suggested it would be, but it's another strong entry in Phase 4 following No Way Home. There doesn't seem to be any big team-up brewing, but maybe there are nointentionally  Avengers plans for this phase. Maybe that'll be left until after Fantastic Four, when Dr Doom should be far enough removed in terms of 'time-since-Endgame' from the potentially similar Thanos.

Rewatching this and Vision's absence is really noticeable...especially after the ending of WandaVision.  

 

Coming into this I heard that there were reviews slating it because of the prerequisite knowledge of other shows but it's just cherry picking and if this is the way forward with MCU I can't help but be disappointed...

[yakumo]

 

[Professor Puzzles]

This whole multiversal calamity could have been easily avoided if the baddie had just

 

Spoiler

taken out a subscription to Guardian Soulmates or Bumble perhaps or, failing that, visited a sperm bank or an adoption agency. Kids are all over the bloody place these days and pretty easy to come by if you put in a little work, though it probably wouldn't have made for a very exciting film. 

 

[Hamus]

Spoiler

That was just weird. I didn't realise going in Wanda was the baddy. Again.

 

It was nonsense. They let her off before to kill again because she wants her boys? Come on, she's painted as an unhinged woman "IM A MOTHER!". I felt it in poor taste.

 

Then it slowly morphed into an evil dead film which I should have realised with the early cameo, especially when he couldn't control his hand.

 

The writing, pacing, explanations of everything seemed way off.

 

I guess it's the second Marvel film in with another Tim from the office, but he wasn't as good either.

 

Put in a spoiler just in case, although I feel it wasn't huge - who knows?

 

Overall I didn't gel with it.

[SeanR]

Oh…

[Festoon]

56 minutes ago, Hamus said:

That was just weird. I didn't realise going in Wanda was the baddy. Again.

 

It was nonsense. They let her off before to kill again because she wants her boys? Come on, she's painted as an unhinged woman "IM A MOTHER!". I felt it in poor taste.

 

Then it slowly morphed into an evil dead film which I should have realised with the early cameo, especially when he couldn't control his hand.

 

The writing, pacing, explanations of everything seemed way off.

 

I guess it's the second Marvel film in with another Tim from the office, but he wasn't as good either.

 

Women be crazy for kids, y'see.

[Sidewaysbob]

10 hours ago, Hamus said:

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That was just weird. I didn't realise going in Wanda was the baddy. Again.

 

It was nonsense. They let her off before to kill again because she wants her boys? Come on, she's painted as an unhinged woman "IM A MOTHER!". I felt it in poor taste.

 

Then it slowly morphed into an evil dead film which I should have realised with the early cameo, especially when he couldn't control his hand.

 

The writing, pacing, explanations of everything seemed way off.

 

I guess it's the second Marvel film in with another Tim from the office, but he wasn't as good either.

 

Put in a spoiler just in case, although I feel it wasn't huge - who knows?

 

Overall I didn't gel with it.

 

Are you married and do you have kids ?

 

If you are and you do, ask your partner what they would do if the kids were suddenly taken away and you where then told to just get over it, they never existed anyway. My son went to London yesterday with his mates and my wife got agitated when he didn't reply to her messages asking him how he was getting on. 

 

I had no problem with the idea she might want to break time to find "her" children.

[Hamus]

2 hours ago, Sidewaysbob said:

 

Are you married and do you have kids ?

 

If you are and you do, ask your partner what they would do if the kids were suddenly taken away and you where then told to just get over it, they never existed anyway. My son went to London yesterday with his mates and my wife got agitated when he didn't reply to her messages asking him how he was getting on. 

 

I had no problem with the idea she might want to break time to find "her" children.

 

I have a daughter who I have spent more time with than my other half, due to my work commitments being less and probably more patience! For well over a year I was the only one who put her to bed. 

I have watched her grow and protected her since she was tiny, taking months off when she was very small, then as she grew spending 2-3 days a week with her. Even during the pandemic when there was no where to go.

Like many parents I can now recite certain books back without having to read them, which I used to do in the dark when she wouldn't sleep and would only have a specific story read out loud.

I know what sacrifice and love is, and I am very lucky we are very close.

 

In Wanda Vision she suddenly "Had" a couple of kids - birthing them in seconds. She never bonded with them, them grew up in a few hours, and suddenly she is going around killing people and trying to break the universe to get to them?

 

I've taken my daughter to hospital, had her puke on me multiple times, and also done all the things like tell her off for snatching toys and got her to apologise, put up with tantrums, etc, etc, etc.

 

Which means Wanda's reaction is stupid. She has no bond to these kids, aside from something that is imaginary and selfish. As such she is actually bloody insane. Marvel have painted her as an entirely insane woman, which is just shit for her character and shit for female Marvel characters.

[Stig]

How do you know she had no bond to them? Just because we saw them grow up in a matter of hours doesn't mean whatever magic produced them didn't also alter her mind in relation to them. Her love for them might easily be as strong as yours is for your daughter. 

Re the Insane part. (Spoilers for Wandas story in the MCU)

Spoiler

She was already going that way when she took over a whole town and held people hostage, just because it played off like a comedy at times and because Monica tried to justify it doesn't mean that she wasn't already on that path. Losing her perfect family life caused her to snap. It's pretty much take from the House of M where roughly the same thing happens and it drives her insane.

 

Oh and let's not forget the fact she comes from a life of being experimented on after her parents were killed by war, then losing her twin brother, then having to kill the man she loved, and it meaning nothing. She killed him, saw him come back to life to just be killed again, that's fucked up. Tbh, she'd done pretty well holding it together before Westview.

 

All that past trauma added ontop of her having to destroy the life she's always wanted, plus using the Darkhold might just make someone tip over the edge don't you think?

 

I don't understand how people still think she was at peace at the end of Wandavision too when the post credit clearly shows she wasn't 

 

 

[Hamus]

1 hour ago, Stigweard said:

How do you know she had no bond to them? Just because we saw them grow up in a matter of hours doesn't mean whatever magic produced them didn't also alter her mind in relation to them. Her love for them might easily be as strong as yours is for your daughter. 

Re the Insane part. (Spoilers for Wandas story in the MCU)

  Hide contents

She was already going that way when she took over a whole town and held people hostage, just because it played off like a comedy at times and because Monica tried to justify it doesn't mean that she wasn't already on that path. Losing her perfect family life caused her to snap. It's pretty much take from the House of M where roughly the same thing happens and it drives her insane.

 

Oh and let's not forget the fact she comes from a life of being experimented on after her parents were killed by war, then losing her twin brother, then having to kill the man she loved, and it meaning nothing. She killed him, saw him come back to life to just be killed again, that's fucked up. Tbh, she'd done pretty well holding it together before Westview.

 

All that past trauma added ontop of her having to destroy the life she's always wanted, plus using the Darkhold might just make someone tip over the edge don't you think?

 

I don't understand how people still think she was at peace at the end of Wandavision too when the post credit clearly shows she wasn't 

 

 

 

1. Because of what we've been seen. You're saying "The Magic in her mind made her do it". How do we know? You are assuming. I am looking at the evidence.

 

2.

Spoiler

I think I outlined she's absolutely gone off the edge. She is murdering people and perhaps collapsing universes to try and hang out with her kids.

 

She was tortured, messed up, etc, and so it's all a great line to keep on doing it, and that's all fine?

 

If you actually enjoyed or accepted seeing a character go totally nuts "Because of my boys" like some flying Peggy Mitchell, then all good.

 

They wouldn't have done this to Hemsworth or Downey. The latter discovered the guy who killed his mom and eventually he had to let it go. Along with Cap who knew. Because he's the smart superhero guy, who finally gets a grand send off.

 

I expect Wanda will remain buried, her arc has just been one of misery without any kind of payoff for way too long.

 

[Stig]

So if we go by your evidence and logic you're saying that someone that loses a child only after a few days can't experience extreme trauma, which is ridiculous.

 

She may not have experienced the highs and lows of several years of parenthood, but once those babies were born, like all of us do, she'll have loved them and wanted to protect them. After all the shit shes been through, she finally got what she wanted and had to give it up. It was the final straw that broke her.

 

The Darkhold showed her a way to get that back and corrupted her in doing so. The whole film pretty much spells that out, "don't fuck with the Darkhold"

[Benny]

People deal with grief in various ways, but becoming a murderous psychopath is a bit of an edge case.

 

The "But what if they get sick" bit was especially batshit

 

The film is generally a pretty terrible take if you're looking for sensitive explorations of grief and trauma. Better than the equivalent in Picard though.

[Benny]

But yeah, if it wasn't for the whole

 

Spoiler

"oh no I read the murderbook and now want to do murders" get out clause

 

it would have been a harder sell and have come across worse.

[monkeydog]

The making of is up on Disney plus. I've watched the first minute. It's amazing.

[Stig]

3 hours ago, Benny said:

People deal with grief in various ways, but becoming a murderous psychopath is a bit of an edge case.

 

The "But what if they get sick" bit was especially batshit

 

The film is generally a pretty terrible take if you're looking for sensitive explorations of grief and trauma. Better than the equivalent in Picard though.

 

3 hours ago, Benny said:

But yeah, if it wasn't for the whole

 

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"oh no I read the murderbook and now want to do murders" get out clause

 

it would have been a harder sell and have come across worse.

 

As I've said, I think its a cumulation of everything she's been through and it was just the final thing that broke her. Look at how she dealt with losing Vision. Holding a whole town hostage isn't really the way to deal with grief either. She's done crazy uncontrollable things throughout the lot of her MCU arc.

[Sabreman]

My main issue with the post credits scene in WV is that it basically throws everything in the preceding 20-odd minutes of resolution out the window in favour of a cool stinger. After the clarity of what she's done, the pain and suffering she's caused the townsfolk, the melancholy walk back home and the heartbreaking goodbyes to the kids and Vision (lest we forget, because the writers of Strange 2 certainly did), she just goes "Nah, fuck it. Evil book time!". The movie doesn't earn her descent into homicidal glee, and the She's Gone Mad card is boring and lazy.

[Nick R]

1 hour ago, Sabreman said:

My main issue with the post credits scene in WV is that it basically throws everything in the preceding 20-odd minutes of resolution out the window in favour of a cool stinger. After the clarity of what she's done, the pain and suffering she's caused the townsfolk, the melancholy walk back home and the heartbreaking goodbyes to the kids and Vision (lest we forget, because the writers of Strange 2 certainly did), she just goes "Nah, fuck it. Evil book time!". The movie doesn't earn her descent into homicidal glee, and the She's Gone Mad card is boring and lazy.

 

What I was expecting, based on the post-credits of WandaVision and the film's trailers, was that Multiverse of Madness would do something along these lines:

 

Spoiler

Initially, she teams up with Strange. But she has an ulterior motive of only using him and America to find the universe where her kids are real (and calling for help?), which is only revealed some way into the movie.

 

When they encounter that universe with her kids (whether intentionally or accidentally), she wants to bring them home with her, Strange says it's too dangerous, and that's where the conflict between them comes from.

 

 

What I definitely was not expecting was what the movie ultimately did: having Wanda and Strange in conflict from their very first scene, with her immediately escalating to a ruthless villain!

 

I don't want to be one of those "my idea was better!" sort of fans... but IMO the version I was expecting might have felt like a smoother transition from the end of WandaVision. (For one thing, it doesn't involve her being externally corrupted in any way.) Her wanting to team up with a fellow magic user to find the universe where her kids are real is a natural extension from where we left her at the end of WV, and would have the audience initially on her side; whereas her beginning the film with the aim of killing an innocent character does not.

 

 

Incidentally, the very first premise that came to mind for me, immediately after SDCC 2019's announcement of the title and the fact that Wanda would be appearing in it, was the broad concept that the film would be about her and Strange getting stuck/lost in a different universe, and the whole movie would be about them trying to find their way home via lots of different weird Ditko-y dimensions. (That was when Scott Derrickson was still attached, and talking about using Nightmare as the villain.)

[Alex W.]

That's the plot synopsis that Disney circulated back before he quit over "creative differences", yeah.

[Hamus]

I thought it was going to be a buddy movie as they japed across the time lines stopping really evil bad things together.

 

Instead we got 'bitch be crazy for reasons' and 'come at me bro'.

 

Also the Minotaur looked cool and should have featured more.

 

3.4 out of 12

[SeanR]

Fucking hell.

 

Disney+ has the big bad on the banner…

[Festoon]

12 minutes ago, SeanR said:

Fucking hell.

 

Disney+ has the big bad on the banner…

 

Nobody would know.