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16 minutes ago, spork said:

Ole isn’t even getting sacked after this is he?

Why would he be? Glazers loving life. Unless he doesn’t get 4th at the end of the season (and even then.. who knows) this is it for United. Forever.

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27 minutes ago, ckny said:


Who would you replace him with at this point anyway?

Absolutely no idea. Rodgers, Ten Hag and Poch seem to be the names mentioned the most but I can’t see Rodgers wanting to leave a well run Leicester for our shit show. Ten Hag probably has no interest in leaving Ajax mid season when they are doing well in the CL. Poch will probably get booted from PSG soon so might be attainable but I’ve no idea whether he’s the right man to take us forward.

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Just saw the highlights on motd...blimey an onslaught. Ronaldo top of the United sprint chart though at least..!

 

2 hours ago, Stevie said:

We have turned into Arsenal under Wenger. Will we do better with a better manager? Yes. Will a better manager win us the league? No. 

 

Why not? Guardiola and Klopp won't be in the league in probably 3 years time. Tuchel is saying he wants to stay for years but who is allowed to do that Chelsea and hard to see Conte still at Spurs in 3 years time. Whoever any of those are getting, they're not better than who they've got. 

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16 hours ago, ckny said:


Who would you replace him with at this point anyway?

Cantona.

 

Seriously, give him a go. Couldn't be worse, might be amazing, but will absolutely be entertaining. You won't be winning anything this season, but you're not getting relegated. A free punt might just suit someone like him.

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Might as well make Ronaldo player-manager. Rooney’s not doing too bad with Derby either. Carrick’s already there, get Rio and Scholes off the BT Sport sofa and manage by committee of the Champions League 08 winning squad.

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So just seen the Roy Keane rant about Fred...

 

 

There was more. This is not a knock on Fred who improved in his 2nd/3rd season but why did the club buy him? Of all the midfielders out there why him with the attributes he's got and for £50m? Was any other top club in for him? Was he linked with top clubs for years? United don't buy midfielders often so it's odd. If he was one of a number of midfielders bought at £20m then it'd make more sense, but again that price back then in 2018 quoting the Sky piece 'It is understood the bonuses could take the deal to around £61.2m - this would make him United's third most expensive signing of all time behind Paul Pogba and Romelu Lukaku'. 

 

Mourinho said: "Fred will complement our other midfielders' qualities, which we need; his creative brain and passing vision will give us another dimension to our game.

 

"I am very happy he is joining our club and I believe our players know how important he can be in our team."

 

But he doesn't have a creative brain and passing vision does he? He's very fast, quick to intercept, moments of skill. He'll always been more of a defensive midfielder. The moments of skill he's still loose with the ball, he's not 100% in control of it. We know the club go after big names for marketing reasons without an idea how they fit in but there's equally been as many signings of relatively obscure names for big money. Did United buy him to compliment Pogba? This was before the emergence of McTominay. 

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United have stuck with Fred because he fits into the longer-term ambitions for how Ole wanted to play. It's not by accident that the signing was contested between United and Napoli, as his strengths lie as a shuttling player in a trio set up to play fast, vertical football.

 

It's fair to knock Ole for not being strong enough in his team selections since you-know-what, but his United showed incremental improvements and, had he not been completely fucked from above at the end of this transfer window, he would have had a squad that would likely have won something. He's going to end up the fall guy in a move that has seen the Glazers pull close to another hundred million out of the club, at the expense of a cohesive side on the pitch. He's trying to make it work because that's the kind of guy he is, but he's been shafted and he knows it.

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So someone replied to Michael Cox's twitter about 'Ambitious clubs don’t wait around for their manager’s position to become untenable any more. They pounce for obvious upgrades regardless of their current manager’s performance' with:

 

100% Michael. He’ll be gone in next 48

 

SO I REPLIED

 

Really? Not until 4th is mathematically impossible? Conte gets Spurs 4th by season end, United finally can't just expect that, Ole sacked for Rodgers or Pochettino, that's what will happen. Board might want to see if Ole lucks 4th again but fan anger persuades them otherwise.

 

THEN HE REPLIED

 

United are the equivalent of a gangrene limb, how long do you allow it spread before the damage is irreversible? Needs to be cut off. It will happen.

 

I REPLIED AGAIN

 

Replace with who though? Like Nov 2020 when United failed to get out of CL group and Pochettino was available but then hired in January, it's too late. No top manager will leave their club half way through a season. I know Rodgers did with Celtic...

 

HE THEN REPLIED AGAIN

 

I think there is an interim solution and a longer term one. With Poch / Brendan being the latter. Not sure who for interim, but there are much better coaches who could come in and salvage this mess short term

 

So I googled 'top out of work coaches'

 

AND REPLIED AGAIN

 

Well if United wants to give out of work managers a chance on a big club without expectation necessarily of continuing next season, would Paulo Fonseca, Diego Martinez or Lucien Favre take it? Or Chris Wilder...no but really...his Sheffield in that first PL season were great...

 

and that concluded my sunday morning interaction with a stranger on twitter. The point is...would United offer any of those the chance and would any of them take 7 months at a highly visible club where the lows are lower with the attention but the highs are potentially higher than they've ever had? Two of the managers have previously got the best out of Fred and Sancho...

 

When it comes to the phrase 'the manager isn't big enough to drop Ronaldo', is that an actual thing, or just abstract. Like would an interim manager simply not have the power or merely feel like he doesn't, just a custodian of the club for a bit and there to do his best and not impose himself. Given Ole got the job permanently based on a few months of good results, don't see why a new manager wouldn't think he could get the same time if he got 4th. 

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48 minutes ago, GamesGamesGames said:

United have stuck with Fred because he fits into the longer-term ambitions for how Ole wanted to play. It's not by accident that the signing was contested between United and Napoli, as his strengths lie as a shuttling player in a trio set up to play fast, vertical football.

 

It's fair to knock Ole for not being strong enough in his team selections since you-know-what, but his United showed incremental improvements and, had he not been completely fucked from above at the end of this transfer window, he would have had a squad that would likely have won something. He's going to end up the fall guy in a move that has seen the Glazers pull close to another hundred million out of the club, at the expense of a cohesive side on the pitch. He's trying to make it work because that's the kind of guy he is, but he's been shafted and he knows it.

 

How was Ole completely fucked at the end of the transfer window? 

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1 hour ago, Loik V credern said:

How was Ole completely fucked at the end of the transfer window? 

 

He had his recruitment sorted with Lingard going to West Ham, and Tchouaméni coming in using those funds. That was business done. Upstairs then fucked about asking too much for Lingard until West Ham shopped elsewhere, and he was told there was no Tchouaméni because there was no money.

 

Days later, money appears for Ronaldo. He's a brilliant individual but his integration into the side totally disrupts how Ole has aimed for the side to play over the past three years. The owners then exploit the share boost after the Ronaldo signing to make off with another fortune.

 

Oles's 2021/22 squad was supposed to be this, minus Lingard and Ronaldo, plus Tchouaméni and James. It would have been a far better balanced squad and equipped from top to bottom to play the way Ole would like. No individuals would be accommodated at the expense of the unit. Not a knock on Lingard or Ronaldo, who are both fine players, but this past summer was purely about getting the balance right, and it's now been unbalanced to such an extent that Ole is having to mess about with systems as if he's just stepped into the job.

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43 minutes ago, GamesGamesGames said:

He had his recruitment sorted with Lingard going to West Ham, and Tchouaméni coming in using those funds. That was business done. Upstairs then fucked about asking too much for Lingard until West Ham shopped elsewhere, and he was told there was no Tchouaméni because there was no money.

 

I don't understand how anyone can know this exactly unless you're within United? Even if a journalist said this it'd be information passed to him. It doesn't matter, i have no idea what occurs around transfers, the only rationality to holding on to Lingard would be asking for a high price but then that makes no sense to me. He's nearly 29 and won't be used.

 

43 minutes ago, GamesGamesGames said:

Days later, money appears for Ronaldo. He's a brilliant individual but his integration into the side totally disrupts how Ole has aimed for the side to play over the past three years. The owners then exploit the share boost after the Ronaldo signing to make off with another fortune.

 

Oles's 2021/22 squad was supposed to be this, minus Lingard and Ronaldo, plus Tchouaméni and James. It would have been a far better balanced squad and equipped from top to bottom to play the way Ole would like. No individuals would be accommodated at the expense of the unit. Not a knock on Lingard or Ronaldo, who are both fine players, but this past summer was purely about getting the balance right, and it's now been unbalanced to such an extent that Ole is having to mess about with systems as if he's just stepped into the job.

 

I don't understand how minus Tchouaméni but plus Ronaldo can possibly create such an inbalance that destroys the whole season. Tchouaméni is 21 year old? Why ought we to think he'd have been the missing piece of the midfield? Ndombele came from Ligue 1, hasn't done it in the league, Keita came from Bundesliga, never performed as expected. Thiago came from Bayern, everyone thought Liverpool would win the league with him, has been forgotten about now.

 

Zidane dropped Ronaldo for league games to save him for Champions League games, if Ole isn't at risk of being sacked after losing 5 nil at home to Liverpool, what pressure is forcing him to play Ronaldo? Why do we say Ronaldo would work for City but he completely breaks United?

 

I've never seen what Ole's aim how to play has been except on the counter against big teams which can't be used against average teams that sit deep. There's never been any development on that. The first goal against Atalanta is a good example of the kind the team were scoring early on when Ole came in, there's no recognised pattern to it, it's just those brief moments of inspiration top players have where it all just clicks into place. And it's probably a better quick incisive team goal than anything City will score this season. But i'd take City's approach of ordering the forwards players to sit as wide as possible, the team pushing up then threading passes in behind to those forwards or fullbacks who then cross low across the box for an easy tap in, which they do again and again and again. Against Norwich early in the season a player, i think it was Silva received the ball then was pointing at the pass that should be played in behind as he passed to the next player. He's stood in a position recognising the space in behind knowing this is the moment City play that move, when do you ever see that?

 

Are passes in behind beyond Fernandes? Are well timed runs beyond Martial or Rashford? Are those darts in the box beyond either of those two again? Henry said this years ago about Pep when he was at Barcelona, he instructed his forwards to stay wide, he ignored it in one game, scored, then was subbed off. 'Stay wide until the ball is in the final third, then you have freedom'. I like the Pogba long through ball to Rashford or Greenwood and them run in and score from an acute angle but the degree of difficulty is so high.

 

Inconsistency has marked Ole's entire period, came in.. goals galore, players happy, got a long contract then a slump. Had he not already been given a contract that end of season slump would have cost him the job i think. Next season no consistency, behind Lampard's transfer plagued Hazard-less Chelsea up until Christmas for a champions league spot, then the arrival of Fernandes in January transformed the entire team, the team won an unusual amount of penalties, he scored them all, and he carried the whole team. Then he continued to carry the team in the next season and Ole had his favourite players he ran into the ground. It's great that the team was getting the best out of one player, but no one can convince me to rely on one player is healthy. Man City don't, Chelsea don't. They're if anything improved since they lost their two forwards. I don't think there was any progress under Ole, remove Fernandes' arrival and the team wouldn't have finished 3rd in that season. There were happier players, exciting goals and games, but that's it. That isn't progress to me, just something a bit brighter than what the 3 previous managers offered. Hire one of the top managers in the world in their prime. Not years after their best years.

 

The Fred decision to not take him off against Psg when everyone knew he'd get sent off, again the other night McTominay was on a yellow and close to be getting sent of but Pogba was hooked instead. Ole doesn't have a system in place that players fit into, he has his favourites which he's confident will do what they do and win how they have in the past. Pep and Tuchel are confident to bring in whoever, however inexperienced or fringe they are into their system. Ole isn't learning, the comment about United have their own Wenger above? Wenger was deluded by the end and i think Ole is too. 

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Yeah, I've seen @GamesGamesGamespost a fair few times about the transfer that wasn't, but don't believe for a second had you got that midfielder it would fix things. It's been years since Fergus on retired and lots of different midfielders have been tried and none have worked - I mean, christ, Pogba was meant to the the missing piece of the puzzle years ago and how has that turned out?

 

I think there are problems outside of the midfield anyway. Your attacking lacks any real cohesion, your defence is looking very creaky and, yes, the midfield can rarely take control of a game. But one player doesn't suddenly change that but, even if he did, what if he got injured? Could he cope with the pressure of having to carry the team? Would he have to play every game and burn out because, as is always said in this thread, he would be the player you need?

 

City didn't even see your midfield because they bypassed them completely. As much as I enjoyed Liverpool's win, we didn't even play that well but just cut through your disorganised defence with clever movement and sharp passing. Leicester, West Ham (in the cup) etc didn't need to play the games of their lives to win, like they would've had to years ago.

 

I think there is a narrative (that definitely benefits Ole as he can always pull it out as an excuse) that this one magical midfielder is all you need to progress, but it the reality is you have a squad of talented players but you sure as hell don't have a team.

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I'm not saying it would be the missing piece @Gabe, just the next step in an evolution which wouldn't have completed its first cycle until Pogba was gone, Cavani moved on, and a top-line midfielder and striker bought in. This, along with resolving the first-choice keeper situation, would have had United in position for a 2022-23 title tilt.

 

In much the same way as a club's fortunes are never as good or bad as they're made to appear, so can the slightest change have a huge impact upon the ecology of a squad. Ronaldo's signing has set United back a few years. The owners are delighted. That's the dichotomy, and nothing can ever truly change for the club's fortunes until it ends.

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6 minutes ago, GamesGamesGames said:

I'm not saying it would be the missing piece @Gabe, just the next step in an evolution which wouldn't have completed its first cycle until Pogba was gone, Cavani moved on, and a top-line midfielder and striker bought in. This, along with resolving the first-choice keeper situation, would have had United in position for a 2022-23 title tilt.

 

In much the same way as a club's fortunes are never as good or bad as they're made to appear, so can the slightest change have a huge impact upon the ecology of a squad. Ronaldo's signing has set United back a few years. The owners are delighted. That's the dichotomy, and nothing can ever truly change for the club's fortunes until it ends.

Fair enough and, yes, the Ronaldo signing from any footballing perspective looks unhelpful for the team. 

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I cant believe you guys are saying Ronaldo being in the team is a negative. It's absolute fucking nonsense. he's dragging the corpse of the entire team through games. Not only is he a striker who most definitley knows where the goal is, his leadership alone in tying to get some passion and determination out of a team low on confidence is worth far more than you're giving credit. A strikers role is to score goals, its the rest of the team to actually control the game, not the striker. Ronaldo is no peak Tevez,  he's 37 and look what he's doing.

 

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12 minutes ago, Nicky said:

A strikers role is to score goals, its the rest of the team to actually control the game, not the striker.

 

Swap Ronaldo for Firmino, and by your reckoning Liverpool go streets ahead while United would go right down the pan. That wouldn't be the reality.

 

And no, before it even comes up, I'm not saying Firmino is better than Ronaldo. It's just that one of them fits the system like a glove, and the other disrupts it to the point it can barely function as a front-to-back unit.

 

Getting the best out of this Ronaldo in the current United setup would mean making him a wide-forward sub, and just bringing him on when a full-back has already been ran ragged for an hour. His ego wouldn't stand for it, I don't think Ole would have the nerve to do it, and the owners wouldn't want their golden goose out of the spotlight either.

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you make all this talk about systems, When we dont even have a functioning midfield. We have no system. this is the problem. The problem is squarely the coaching and management.

 

Let me pose you this hypothetical question.

 

Utd have to score 10 goals in the next 4 games. your life depends on it.

who do you have leading the attack?

Ronaldo,

Greenwood,

Rashford

As long as your pick outscores the others, regardless of them not hitting 10 goals, you live.

 

who do you pick?

 

 

this might seem pointless, but that's what's happening at the club. Ole's life depends on it. because he cant trust the rest of the fucking team. Saying Ronaldo is the problem is absolute lunacy.

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Why should that be the metric? They could score ten goals in four games and come away with no points.

 

Tell you what, if United had to get ten POINTS in four games - the stuff that actually matters - my starting eleven would be an upgrade on the side which finished second last season, playing the same system.

 

De Gea

 

Wan-Bissaka

Varane

Lindelof

Shaw

 

McTominay

Fred

 

Greenwood

Fernandes

Rashford

 

Cavani

 

 

Subs:

 

Henderson

Maguire

Dalot

van der Beek

Sancho

Martial

Ronaldo

 

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5 minutes ago, GamesGamesGames said:

Why should that be the metric? They could score ten goals in four games and come away with no points.

 

Tell you what, if United had to get ten POINTS in four games - the stuff that actually matters - my starting eleven would be an upgrade on the side which finished second last season, playing the same system.

 

De Gea

 

Wan-Bissaka

Varane

Lindelof

Shaw

 

McTominay

Fred

 

Greenwood

Fernandes

Rashford

 

Cavani

 

 

Subs:

 

Henderson

Maguire

Dalot

van der Beek

Sancho

Martial

Ronaldo

 

Except Cavani would be injured every other game.

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1 hour ago, GamesGamesGames said:

Why should that be the metric? They could score ten goals in four games and come away with no points.

 

 

 

Because that's what i said it was. We're talking about Ronaldo, stop deflecting it to other areas. If you want to read the Tabloid line of disruption and ronaldo = bad then fine, we can stop this discussion here. However we're discussing their effectiveness at their role. you died.  your main striker should never HAVE to come back and work to defend to stop conceding. if they have to, that is a failure of potentially SIX other players if you're running UTD's back 4 and 2 holding midfielders. If your main striker has to backtrack all the way to defend, then where's the outball going to? nowhere.

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1 hour ago, Nicky said:

Because that's what i said it was. We're talking about Ronaldo, stop deflecting it to other areas. If you want to read the Tabloid line of disruption and ronaldo = bad then fine, we can stop this discussion here. However we're discussing their effectiveness at their role. you died.  your main striker should never HAVE to come back and work to defend to stop conceding. if they have to, that is a failure of potentially SIX other players if you're running UTD's back 4 and 2 holding midfielders. If your main striker has to backtrack all the way to defend, then where's the outball going to? nowhere.

 

Quoting this one for posterity. You're an idiot and I'm putting you on ignore.

 

Trying to think of the last top side that had a forward who contributed nothing defensively. Probably United 08, in which noted workhorses Rooney, Tevez and Hargreaves made it work for Ronaldo in an era where top sides didn't press from the front. Even the closest things to old-fashioned number nines (Lewandowski, Haaland, Silva, Immobile) work like bastards defensively nowadays. Which doesn't just mean dropping back, you utter dolt.

 

Still, to answer your question. Ten goals in four games you say?

 

Henderson

 

Lingard

Matic

McTominay

Telles

 

Pogba

Mata

 

Rashford

Fernandes

Greenwood

 

Cavani

 

Now don't go complaining this team is wide open and would get hammered. Of course it would, but we're playing by your rules now.

 

The game has changed. Try watching it sometime. Toodle pip.

 

 

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