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The Tuvix Debate


Harsin
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Killing Tuvix  

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15 minutes ago, Harsin said:

Also, good job I didn’t want to watch Stowaway Spoliery McGoo.

 

It's not a spoiler, there's more to the film, and also not that much. The trailer shows a lot more, i know that's what Mark Kermode uses when he reviews films. I avoid trailers because i don't want to know any more than the setup. All I've said is there's a stowaway with 3 crew already on board, and very early, like 15 minutes in a conversation occurs between the captain and her bosses where you don't even hear their side, and it clears up the 'why can't she sacrifice herself' angle. And that he's accepting, as established straight away, but they're all still on a mission and you don't know how it plays out or if they can all survive. I wasn't trying to suggest they're like; oh a stowaway out the airlock you go. Maybe i should stop typing.

 

A lot who dislike it expected a different film so it's probably best to know it's not something it's not even trying to be. There's no big twists and turns but lots of nice character moments. I think it's worth watching.

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15 hours ago, Harsin said:

The importance of the mission stuff above all else angle doesn’t really hold up, because you now have one individual who has the knowledge and skills of two and is taking up half the resources. Doesn’t help that one of the individuals removed from sucking up precious resources was a space pedo who’s only discernible contribution to the crew was cooking the tea… on a ship that has fucking replicators. 

Yeah but even if you go for the utilitarian kind of approach it still isnt clear-cut.

 

One person only has one pair of hands, can only be in one place at once, only represents half as many available man-hours before needing to sleep or whatever. Could be a workload capacity issue.

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16 hours ago, Harsin said:

The importance of the mission stuff above all else angle doesn’t really hold up, because you now have one individual who has the knowledge and skills of two and is taking up half the resources. Doesn’t help that one of the individuals removed from sucking up precious resources was a space pedo who’s only discernible contribution to the crew was cooking the tea… on a ship that has fucking replicators. 

That are restricted in use due to trying to conserve energy due to plot reasons.

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It seems to me people are using their dislike of the characters based on dozens of episodes where their flaws are revealed to cloud their judgement on this because Tuvix is the new guy who appears to be decent in the short time we watch him even though the writers are always going to show the best of him to increase the drama at the end. We never got time to see his flaws in many different situations that would arise. 

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Tuvix would've ended up topping himself.

Part of Tuvok's psyche was in there somewhere and there's no way it could bear the strain of sharing a consciousness with whatever was left of Neelix - not in the long term.

What Janeway did was a mercy.

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18 hours ago, Loik V credern said:

I don’t understand why it's a moral dilemma, two people existed and had their own lives then through a freak accident they're combined into one person and a new consciousness emerges and that single consciousness suddenly has more importance than the two previous ones because it exists in the present and the two 'died' doing their duty? I don't agree they died, it was a freak accident that could be reversed. It's unfortunate for the new consciousness but the others existed first. I know by saying I've never really watched more than a dozen minutes of Star Trek I'm opening myself up to being dismissed but i have to say that because the above might contain inaccuracies. I watched Tuvix earlier today without knowing the separate personalities and wasn't impressed by Tuvix's immediate kind of arrogant assertiveness when he realised the decision isn't up to him nor his attempts at manipulating and guilt tripping the crew, he lacked grace and class. Tuvok and Neelix were here first, that's how it goes, that's all i think about it. 

 

Also I think the baby analogy is stupid.

 

I'm ineterested to hear why you think the baby analogy is "stupid". Is it because you're comfortable murdering someone you don't like to save someone you do, but are uncomfortable murdering an innocent with very limited life experience?

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Just now, revlob said:

I'm ineterested to hear why you think the baby analogy is "stupid". Is it because you're comfortable murdering someone you don't like to save someone you do, but are uncomfortable murdering an innocent with very limited life experience?

 

Because i don't see Tuvok and Neelix as dieing in an industrial accident, it was a process that created a weird abberation that then could be reversed.

 

The baby is a separate life entirely whereas Tuvix is a result of a technological mistake. It's not the same. 

 

Of course i wouldn't murder a baby to bring back two dead colleagues even if they were my favourite people in the world. 

 

Janeway didn't murder anyone, she reversed the mistake.

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Remember the one where they accidentally told the computer to create a fully self-aware virtual being, then they trapped it in a simulated reality running on a computer the size of a tricorder? I wonder if they ever checked in to see if they’d killed themselves of boredom.

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1 minute ago, Loik V credern said:

 

He still only exists because of a mistake so still no for me. 

 

Why does the mechanism for a being's creation have any bearing on its right to exist? Plenty of scope for oppression and prejudice of undesirables if we start judging which are legitimate and illegitimate lifeforms.

 

There are parallels with the TNG episode The Quality of Life, in which Data protects the sentient Exocomp robots at the risk of Picard's life. Their sentience can be described as an 'accident' of their design, but it is treated as no less valid than that of any other being.

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24 minutes ago, Vulgar Monkey said:

 

You could say the same of some real-life people.

 

Absolutely. If the justification for taking someone's life is that their birth was not intentional, then that doesn't really help the argument against the baby analogy. Plenty of babies are conceived by accident.

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This was definitely a case where the weekly reset button trumped the obvious morality issue. It would be a more nuanced situation if all three people involved were somehow alive at the same time, but would all die unless either Tuvix or both Tuvok and Neelix were killed first. As it stood though the latter two were already "dead" and Tuvix clearly didn't want to give up his life to bring them back. There's no moral choice in that situation other than to let Tuvix live.

 

55 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

Remember the one where they accidentally told the computer to create a fully self-aware virtual being, then they trapped it in a simulated reality running on a computer the size of a tricorder? I wonder if they ever checked in to see if they’d killed themselves of boredom.

 

Moriarty? He would definitely have been killed in Generations. Nobody bothered to check though. :D

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Voyager did some real clunkers of morality episodes.

 

I vaguely remember they did one that seemed to be riffing on Operation Paperclip where pema-angry B'Ellana Torres (I think) had something or other wrong with her and the only cure was the research of some Cardassian scientist so they re-created him  in the holodeck.

 

First of all why the hell did they make an avatar of Space Josef Mengele. His research would just exist as a PDF on the ship's computer, if you must have a holo-avatar involved just upload it to anyone else, the obvious choice being your existing Doctor, or Leonardo DaVinci or literally anyone else.

 

Or the one where the Doctor makes himself a happy holo-family to hang out with in his spare time, then the crew gets wind of it and decides to turn his leisure experience into a misery nightmare where his daughter suffers a fatal accident to teach him an important 'lesson' about the human condition.

 

Isn't there an Enterprise episode where they won't help a species dieing of a virus they could easily cure because they scan the planet and find out that a squirell, or something, that might evolve into a sentient species millions of years later?

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Occurs to me that Voyager was at a weird intersection of wanting to tell big stories a lot of the time, and having a strict narrative reset button. It is kind of hard to have a persuasive moral dilemma when the ship, crew, and relationships have to get back to exactly how they started by the end of the episode. At the end of the day, whatever happens, no matter how significant, has to have not mattered at all after it's resolved.

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On 28/07/2021 at 15:00, Harsin said:

Voyager did some real clunkers of morality episodes.

 

I vaguely remember they did one that seemed to be riffing on Operation Paperclip where pema-angry B'Ellana Torres (I think) had something or other wrong with her and the only cure was the research of some Cardassian scientist so they re-created him  in the holodeck.

 

First of all why the hell did they make an avatar of Space Josef Mengele. His research would just exist as a PDF on the ship's computer, if you must have a holo-avatar involved just upload it to anyone else, the obvious choice being your existing Doctor, or Leonardo DaVinci or literally anyone else.

 

Or the one where the Doctor makes himself a happy holo-family to hang out with in his spare time, then the crew gets wind of it and decides to turn his leisure experience into a misery nightmare where his daughter suffers a fatal accident to teach him an important 'lesson' about the human condition.

 

Isn't there an Enterprise episode where they won't help a species dieing of a virus they could easily cure because they scan the planet and find out that a squirell, or something, that might evolve into a sentient species millions of years later?

 

space Mengele was great, but I forget whether that episode was before or after the one where they tried and failed to write a new doctor program and it turns out all you they needed to do was say "computer, create a Beverley crusher hologram please"

 

the doctors family needed altering as he created the perfect family and was being a dick about how easy family life was and made his family brilliant at everything, so he got a harsh dose of reality.

 

but, back to tuvix, @JamesC said it perfectly, and tuvix would have been a liability, all those Vulcan traits like strength and telepathy but most importantly the raging emotions that require so much discipline to control, having Neelix take around in there would have wreaked havoc, especially during the horny times

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11 hours ago, sir podger said:

but, back to tuvix, @JamesC said it perfectly, and tuvix would have been a liability, all those Vulcan traits like strength and telepathy but most importantly the raging emotions that require so much discipline to control, having Neelix take around in there would have wreaked havoc, especially during the horny times

 

As terrifying as horny Tuvix sounds, that's still not a good reason to kill him, surely?

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The Voyager holodecks were basically a virtual brothel for the whole crew's use. I'm sure Tuvix could have reserved one whenever the pon farr kicked in. Terrifying, however, to imagine what would have been created by the combined urges of Tuvok and Neelix. Sure, what happens in the Delta Quadrant stays in the Delta Quadrant, but best to clear that search history before leaving.

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1 minute ago, BossSaru said:

The Voyager holodecks were basically a virtual brothel for the whole crew's use. I'm sure Tuvix could have reserved one whenever the pon farr kicked in. Terrifying, however, to imagine what would have been created by the combined urges of Tuvok and Neelix. Sure, what happens in the Delta Quadrant stays in the Delta Quadrant, but best to clear that search history before leaving.

 

The holodeck didn't work for junior horny vulcan dude who got a bit rapey with Torres. Also lower decks touched on this really well, Cleaning out the holodeck waste tank must be the worst job. I always wondered what happened when you took real stuff into the holodeck like say a book, and you ended the program with a holo character holding it, the book would just drop to the floor. Well, what about the *ahem* human items that must have been *left* in all the characters in space ireland?

 

I feel sorry for the poor engineers who made the holodecks, sat back, proud of their creation, their pure vision for a totally immersive entertainment system only limited by a users imagination, seeing the stats come back form the ships counsellors that crews are more relaxed and then to be called into that meeting.

 

"Guys, there was a massive oversight with the holodecks!"

"what, is it the safety protocols? we had Starfleet's finest working on those, they are impossible to circumvent without the user specifically requesting that!"

"no not the safety protocols"

"It cant be artificial life issue - we think we worked all the kinks out of that one, although gary does think that the right circumstances could cause a problem, but gary worries too much"

"Nope, Semen"

"Semen?"

"The crew are shagging the holograms"

"What? no, no no, no no no, the holodeck was designed so you could play a part in a symphony orchestra in the amphitheatre on Tantalon 5, Scuba dive the giant living reefs on the water moons of Borcheron 3, fly with the hawks on Appolonia!"

"well, it seems the most popular attraction is the alley behind the O'Neills pub in Brentwood with Mandy the barmaid, closely followed by spring break on Risa, and when they end the program, they are leaving erm.... genetic residue.. Everywhere. we need to retrofit the entire fleet's holodecks with spunkgutters"

"FML!"

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5 hours ago, BossSaru said:

The Voyager holodecks were basically a virtual brothel for the whole crew's use. I'm sure Tuvix could have reserved one whenever the pon farr kicked in. Terrifying, however, to imagine what would have been created by the combined urges of Tuvok and Neelix. Sure, what happens in the Delta Quadrant stays in the Delta Quadrant, but best to clear that search history before leaving.


im not sure the holodeck could render that many two years olds. 
 

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4 hours ago, sir podger said:

 

The holodeck didn't work for junior horny vulcan dude who got a bit rapey with Torres. Also lower decks touched on this really well, Cleaning out the holodeck waste tank must be the worst job. I always wondered what happened when you took real stuff into the holodeck like say a book, and you ended the program with a holo character holding it, the book would just drop to the floor. Well, what about the *ahem* human items that must have been *left* in all the characters in space ireland?

 

I feel sorry for the poor engineers who made the holodecks, sat back, proud of their creation, their pure vision for a totally immersive entertainment system only limited by a users imagination, seeing the stats come back form the ships counsellors that crews are more relaxed and then to be called into that meeting.

 

"Guys, there was a massive oversight with the holodecks!"

"what, is it the safety protocols? we had Starfleet's finest working on those, they are impossible to circumvent without the user specifically requesting that!"

"no not the safety protocols"

"It cant be artificial life issue - we think we worked all the kinks out of that one, although gary does think that the right circumstances could cause a problem, but gary worries too much"

"Nope, Semen"

"Semen?"

"The crew are shagging the holograms"

"What? no, no no, no no no, the holodeck was designed so you could play a part in a symphony orchestra in the amphitheatre on Tantalon 5, Scuba dive the giant living reefs on the water moons of Borcheron 3, fly with the hawks on Appolonia!"

"well, it seems the most popular attraction is the alley behind the O'Neills pub in Brentwood with Mandy the barmaid, closely followed by spring break on Risa, and when they end the program, they are leaving erm.... genetic residue.. Everywhere. we need to retrofit the entire fleet's holodecks with spunkgutters"

"FML!"

 

Probably best to assume that after each such 'session' the holodecks run an automated self-clean programme in which Groundskeeper Willie and the Janitor from Scrubs give the place a scrub-down.

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