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The Tuvix Debate


Harsin
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Killing Tuvix  

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Where is the option to ensure Tuvok survived by sacrificing Neelix? That I would vote for emphatically!

 

Second I would accept Monkeydog's proposal and have janeway avoid the conundrum by activating the self destruct and ending the series before it could do any more damage to humanity

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9 hours ago, Alex W. said:

It'd be like if they decided that part way through season 4 they'd really tackle the fact that the Warp Drive violates relativity. Just don't go there!

Remember when they did an episode of TNG where warp drive was destroying the very fabric of reality in areas with lots of warp travel so some space environmentalists wanted halt warp use over 4.5, and Starfleet sent Picard to say "fuck you nerds lol" to them or whatever, and it was never mentioned again?

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17 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

Remember when they did an episode of TNG where warp drive was destroying the very fabric of reality in areas with lots of warp travel so some space environmentalists wanted halt warp use over 4.5, and Starfleet sent Picard to say "fuck you nerds lol" to them or whatever, and it was never mentioned again?

It was a thing for a while. It’s even the reason for Voyager’s flappy nacelles. The result of some new way to overcome the problem. Further work on new technology let them forget the flappy nacelles and everything was back to normal. 

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The poll should have been an open public one so I could see who was sick.

 

Given the number of people on here who think Janeway was wrong, I'd just like to say that I would be horrified to serve alongside most of you self-righteous pearl-clutchers. Utterly horrified.

 

I notice no one is answering the following question:

If you woke up tomorrow, and were told that you'd been fused with the topic creator here, but everyone in this topic rallied to have you separated, even though it meant killing the new being, would you have survivor's guilt?

 

I guarantee even the staunchest critic of Janeway would admit: "Thanks for saving me - even though I was not present to ask for it, I'm glad you did it."

 

Also for those who have kids, what if your child was fused? You'd kill the new being to save them.

 

Anyway, I did a meme!

tuvix.jpg

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22 hours ago, Alex W. said:


It’s a bit varied but by the most consistent picture is that the transporter is all about capturing and storing a “pattern” which is both the mass-energy of the object being transported, and a body of information that permits you to put everything back together. It is too large and complex to be stored for later retrieval and can only exist for a limited period of time in a “pattern buffer” before it degrades. This is in contrast to the replicator and holodeck which use the same basic matter-generation hardware but with simple, stored patterns.
 

The pattern can be analysed to gain information on the objects being transported, from the presence of infectious diseases in an organism to the discharge state of a firearm. It can even be edited.

 

How conscious you are as a “pattern” is something that’s dabbled with but never conclusively elaborated.

 

Edit - Star Trek writers clearly felt that because it was “your” energy being transported and used to construct your duplicate, it was still you, and you would experience continuity of consciousness throughout the process. But of course energy is perfectly fungible; there is no “Jean-Luc Picard’s energy” in the pattern buffer, the pattern buffer itself has just been put in to a high energy state.

 

There's a TNG episode in season 1 where Picard dies but they're able to resurrect him by replicating a new one from the transporter's pattern buffer. The writers belatedly realised what a plot-destroying resolution this was so agreed never to use it again. Tom Riker was an unlikely accident.

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23 hours ago, Alex W. said:

Well then you’re back to the thing where the transporter takes a scan of someone, makes a copy, then annihilates the original to get the energy back. There is no moral transporter use if you are concerned about the subjective continuity of consciousness of the original.

 

I think if it is done all within the transporter as manipulating energy you can hand wave it, as soon as you need to create a physical copy to destroy you are back in the horns of the dilemma. 

 

We're already serious violating conservation of energy here in any case, so I'm not sure how much we want to get into the mechanics rather than the broad ideas though :)

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23 hours ago, Alex W. said:

Well then you’re back to the thing where the transporter takes a scan of someone, makes a copy, then annihilates the original to get the energy back.

 

Am I misremembering, or is there a TNG episode where someone is terrified of transporters for this reason, and it ends with them trying to transport him and he resists it & dies? I have a vague image of him pushing against the edges of the transporter beams and someone shouting "No, don't resist it!" just before he gets obliterated.

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Oh also Janeway and the rest of the crews are monsters, obviously. Tuvok and Neelix knowingly took up posts which came with the prospect of accidental death; Tuvix was executed for no crime other than being alive.

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6 minutes ago, PK said:

 

Am I misremembering, or is there a TNG episode where someone is terrified of transporters for this reason, and it ends with them trying to transport him and he resists it & dies? I have a vague image of him pushing against the edges of the transporter beams and someone shouting "No, don't resist it!" just before he gets obliterated.

 

Sort of but I think you might be mixing it up with the Reg Barclay episode Realm of Fear and one where a highly trained retired soldier pushes through the beam to break out in The Hunted.

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Just having a quick nose at Momery Alpha. Man alive are transporters a health and safety nightmare. Bones is 100% in the right, you wouldn't get me using one.

 

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Transporter_accident

 

Death x 5

Reverse Aging x 2

Foreign Object Contamination x 1

Transporter Psychosis x 1

Phasing x 1

Splits and Splices (which Tuvix falls under) x 3

Unintended destination (including accidental time travel) x 3

 

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17 minutes ago, Lorfarius said:

 

Sort of but I think you might be mixing it up with the Reg Barclay episode Realm of Fear and one where a highly trained retired soldier pushes through the beam to break out in The Hunted.

 

Thanks! Yes, this is the image I was half-remembering:

 

image.png.45c08156e82b436b1865093c44b47ee8.png

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1 hour ago, Harsin said:

There's that poor Vulcan in the first film who gets seriously fucked up by the transporter. I remember that bit traumatisng me almost as much as the computer woman in Superman 3 when I was a child.

Jesus

 

 

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I don’t understand why it's a moral dilemma, two people existed and had their own lives then through a freak accident they're combined into one person and a new consciousness emerges and that single consciousness suddenly has more importance than the two previous ones because it exists in the present and the two 'died' doing their duty? I don't agree they died, it was a freak accident that could be reversed. It's unfortunate for the new consciousness but the others existed first. I know by saying I've never really watched more than a dozen minutes of Star Trek I'm opening myself up to being dismissed but i have to say that because the above might contain inaccuracies. I watched Tuvix earlier today without knowing the separate personalities and wasn't impressed by Tuvix's immediate kind of arrogant assertiveness when he realised the decision isn't up to him nor his attempts at manipulating and guilt tripping the crew, he lacked grace and class. Tuvok and Neelix were here first, that's how it goes, that's all i think about it. 

 

Also I think the baby analogy is stupid. 

 

It's similar to the film Stowaway where some people think the stowaway should put up more of a fight, i listened to a podcast where one of them was angry about it and couldn't let it go like; i'm sorry would you just go along with that?? There is no moral dilemma in the film because the captain tries to convince her bosses to sacrifice her life but they're on a mission and she has skills that the stowaway doesn't. 

 

Neither are crimes to me. 

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The importance of the mission stuff above all else angle doesn’t really hold up, because you now have one individual who has the knowledge and skills of two and is taking up half the resources. Doesn’t help that one of the individuals removed from sucking up precious resources was a space pedo who’s only discernible contribution to the crew was cooking the tea… on a ship that has fucking replicators. 

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15 minutes ago, Harsin said:

The importance of the mission stuff above all else angle doesn’t really hold up, because you now have one individual who has the knowledge and skills of two and is taking up half the resources. Doesn’t help that one of the individuals removed from sucking up precious resources was a space pedo who’s only discernible contribution to the crew was cooking the tea… on a ship that has fucking replicators. 

 

I only mean in regards to Stowaway where there's only 3 on board and only meant to be 3. The situation in Star Trek is different. Does the Star Trek fleet agonize over resources?

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And Tuvix was better than Neelix at cooking the tea, and it's implied he's also a better tactical officer than Tuvok thanks to allowing himself to act on a "hunch".

 

In response to that, Chakotay reckons there's an old saying, "the whole is never greater than the sum of its parts"... which is the opposite of the actual saying, right? This episode is full of dumb stuff like that.

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What about reframing it to someone who suffers some brain trauma, and ends up a completely different (not disabled) person, his wife doesn't recognise him, blah blah. But now, we have a treatment to bring the "old" personality back. Do you?

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