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Metroid: Dread - October 8th


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17 minutes ago, scottcr said:

 

And how can you tell that?  From what I've seen it takes good ideas from Samus Returns and Other M, counter attacks, melee, free aim - and makes them faster and smoother.  It includes the relentless chasing that made the last level of Zero Mission so tense.  No one surely expects the galaxies most bad-ass bounty hunter to only be able to shoot 45 degrees up or down and not be able to punch things?  Surely? 

 

This last particular issue was already solved back in Prime. Hell, it was solved back in Ocarina of Time. It didn't involve standing still.

 

[Edit] Besides, I've already mentioned that I like the combat in Other M. Doesn't mean it has no issues.

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3 minutes ago, JPL said:

I know this wasn’t aimed at me, but personally I thought the art style was awful. Not something you’d usually associate with a Nintendo game. Especially when I’d just seen Replaced.

 

I haven’t watched the gameplay video yet, but from an aesthetic point of view it looks really rough.

 

It reminds me of Shadow Complex tbh. Which isn't bad but... Not something I'd associate with weird, biomechanical, alien worlds. Axiom Verge managed to balance this perfectly imo. (Whether you like the pixel aesthetics or not is something else.)

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18 minutes ago, Cyhwuhx said:

 

Heh, already mentioned some earlier in the thread, but summarized:

  • More obscured exploration path instead of A-B-C waypoint progression (not even Metroid II was as obvious); give players the idea that they're figuring out the path, rather than just handing it to them. (Truth to be told, just about every modern game could take this to heart; I will never forgive Uncharted 2 for presenting me a puzzle only to immediately show me ITS SOLUTION next).

 

In Samus Returns I've definitely been in areas that felt 'secret' to me, they weren't highlighted as rooms in the map - that have ended up being places you needed to go to.  I like that kind of stuff.  

 

18 minutes ago, Cyhwuhx said:
  • Less hand-holding: this ties in with the the above point, but just showing which blocks need a certain blast or highlighting secrets is shite. Hide that, or make the player do something to discover this (X-Ray and PowerBombs traditionally did this). All these signposts take down the labyrinthian nature of Metroid and turn it into a Uncharted climbing rountine (exaggerated, but at the same time, if I look at a situation and only have to do the thing instead of figuring out the thing beforehand it's just work (yes, I really dislike Uncharted's exploration design)).

 

Depends.  I *hate* getting lost.  It's completely zero fun.  I almost gave up in Axiom Verge because of this.  Axiom Verge has a pretty logical flow through generally and then there was one bit where I had to freeze a pool or sometihng.  I literaly bounced around that map for hours doing all sorts of stuff.  I gave up on the game for a while.  Came back to it later and still couldn't find it.  Ended up using a guide.  Life is too short for that shite now.  Once I did it, the rest of the game flowed nice and straight forwardly again.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Cyhwuhx said:
  • Less 'scenes': locking players in an environment/room in which there's only a single solution to get out and no way to go back. This is fine as a tutorial to teach a new ability, but utterly boring when you already have them. This is my main issue with the E.M.M.I.s. We've seen this type of gameplay in multiple Metroids now. It's not new. And it made some Metroid evolution fights in Samus Returns incredibly boring, as you were just 'waiting' for the weak point to show up instead of doing something about it.

 

All we've seen is effectively the tutorial area...

 

 

18 minutes ago, Cyhwuhx said:
  • Internal consistency: if players can use an ability (walljump), don't just outright disable said ability (walljumps) in areas where devs would like players to do "the other thing". This one in particular made me lose faith in MercurySteam as a party that "gets Metroid". (Other M did this as well and fuck, I'm still angry about it.)

 

Fair enough - but at least wall jumping here looks easy. The Super Metroid Wall Jump is the worst wall jump in the history of all gaming wall jumps.

 

18 minutes ago, Cyhwuhx said:
  • Exploration/Combat flow: this is the one thing Dread seems to be tackling; getting rid of the start-stop nature of countering. I really hope it's less obtrusive with aiming as well, but that looks less so.

Those are the main design issues which don't overtly spill over into hardcore territory. YMMV of course, but I could go on a rant which basically boils down to me wanting to put devs in front of a very death-by-PowerPoint presentation called "Zero Mission and why you should steal every last bit of it".

 

I like free aiming now, and I think it's a given in modern games - I do wish they'd not bother with it for the grapple though.  Just let me jump close to it and grapple and let Samus work out the rest, aiming while jumping is a pain in the arse.

 

I played Zero Mission to completion just a couple of weeks ago, then started playing Metroid Corruption (I'm at Sky Town) and I'm also about 50% through Samus Returns...

 

and I really enjoy them all and they all feel Metroidy to me.

 

Having said all this, my least favourite Metriod of the ones I've played are Fusion and Super Metroid, so my brain is probably broken.

 

 

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@Cyhwuhx Thanks for typing that. I sense you're broadly looking for gameplay design which is inherently geared towards asking X commitment/interest/engagement of a player. And I feel that today's games from big publishers, have to avoid that at all costs, unfortunately. That type of design seems to only be viable now from smaller devs who can manage that kind of tight consistency, align it with a passion/love for details and fund themselves with the gamer group they are targeting, IF their title is a hit of course.

 

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Here's what the Metroid Amiibo do:

Quote

 

The pack's Samus amiibo will add an extra energy tank to your health, increasing its overall capacity by 100 HP. These permanent power-ups are often hard to find in Metroid games, but you'll get one easily here.

 

The EMMI robot amiibo, meanwhile, will grant an extra missile tank - again, another typically hard to find upgrade. This will boost Samus' missile capacity by 10.

 

Once tapped into your game for the first time, daily additional scans of both amiibo will let you replenish dollops of health and missiles respectively - so keep them to hand while playing.

 

 

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2021-06-17-metroid-dreads-usd30-amiibo-boost-your-health-and-ammo-reserves

 

If any other company tried this, they'd be slaughtered.

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8 minutes ago, Eighthours said:

Here's what the Metroid Amiibo do:

 

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2021-06-17-metroid-dreads-usd30-amiibo-boost-your-health-and-ammo-reserves

 

If any other company tried this, they'd be slaughtered.

 

It's so easy to order a reprogrammable NFC chip online and download the IDs for any ammibo you want, which is what I ended up doing for BotW as I wanted all the exclusive items from the other Zelda games.

 

But yes I agree it's shit.

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One tank ain’t all that. If you’re an inexperienced player and you need the boost nobody should grudge you, and if you’re a high tier player you’re not going to use it. It’s not like they’re giving our Quad Damage for CoD or something.

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They were slaughtered for the fast travel in Skyward Sword HD being locked behind an amiibo. 

 

These ones aren't so bad as the getting upgrades early and a couple of health/ammo cheats is a common DLC thing these days and can mostly be ignored by folk who want to play the game as designed. 

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2 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

One tank ain’t all that. If you’re an inexperienced player and you need the boost nobody should grudge you, and if you’re a high tier player you’re not going to use it. It’s not like they’re giving our Quad Damage for CoD or something.


If you’re an inexperienced player you’re probably not gonna be invested enough to buy the Amiibo. 

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48 minutes ago, gizmo1990 said:

@Cyhwuhx Thanks for typing that. I sense you're broadly looking for gameplay design which is inherently geared towards asking X commitment/interest/engagement of a player. And I feel that today's games from big publishers, have to avoid that at all costs, unfortunately. That type of design seems to only be viable now from smaller devs who can manage that kind of tight consistency, align it with a passion/love for details and fund themselves with the gamer group they are targeting, IF their title is a hit of course.

 

Yeah, and I get that. I see that happening with games at work on a daily basis. And that's what makes me even more annoyed when I see an interview with Sakamoto praising MercurySteam for "getting Metroid". You've created this entire genre and now you refuse to play ball following your own rules. OK fine, but then rip off the band-aid entirely. Don't go half-way like with Other M and Samus Returns, commit to a new vision then. Pull a God of War.

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14 minutes ago, Eighthours said:

Here's what the Metroid Amiibo do:

 

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2021-06-17-metroid-dreads-usd30-amiibo-boost-your-health-and-ammo-reserves

 

If any other company tried this, they'd be slaughtered.

 

While I don't think this will imbalance the game, it'll make it weird for actual speedrunners/completionists. What is the final e.tank and m.silo tally? What is 100%?

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21 minutes ago, Cyhwuhx said:

 

Yeah, and I get that. I see that happening with games at work on a daily basis. And that's what makes me even more annoyed when I see an interview with Sakamoto praising MercurySteam for "getting Metroid". You've created this entire genre and now you refuse to play ball following your own rules. OK fine, but then rip off the band-aid entirely. Don't go half-way like with Other M and Samus Returns, commit to a new vision then. Pull a God of War.

 

I think that's what we're going to see with MP4.  I think (hope) they do a BOTW with MP4 and completely overhaul the entire 'metroid' thing.  I'm fed up with them being called 'metroidvanias' anyway...  I want big open spaces, no colour coded doors - immediately seeing stuff you can't get from the moment you step out the ship... and a full 'alien world' to explore.  

 

probably asking a bit much tbh.

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1 hour ago, scottcr said:

 

In Samus Returns I've definitely been in areas that felt 'secret' to me, they weren't highlighted as rooms in the map - that have ended up being places you needed to go to.  I like that kind of stuff. 

 

Yeah, that's the problem to me, they are en route. Not en passant.

 

Quote

Depends.  I *hate* getting lost.  It's completely zero fun.  I almost gave up in Axiom Verge because of this.  Axiom Verge has a pretty logical flow through generally and then there was one bit where I had to freeze a pool or sometihng.  I literaly bounced around that map for hours doing all sorts of stuff.  I gave up on the game for a while.  Came back to it later and still couldn't find it.  Ended up using a guide.  Life is too short for that shite now.  Once I did it, the rest of the game flowed nice and straight forwardly again.

 

Why play games that are labyrinths then? Also this one Axiom Verge example seems weird. There are plenty of obscure solutions in AV and even some very weird sequence connections having you travel to the opposite end of the map for that one thing, but the freezing/hacking thing of your gun is literally the main gimmick of the game. As I see it the issue there is twofold: 1. and this is way more important: it should've used a more contrasting colour palette for the second state 2. and this is very minor: you should have taken a risk instead of playing it safe while waiting for the game to tell you it's OK.

 

Quote

All we've seen is effectively the tutorial area...

 

Yes. That teaches you how to play the game. Funny that. I really don't care if advanced stuff like Shinesparking, Mono-walljumping or Horizontal Bomb Jumping is a thing. These differ with each Metroid and Samus Returns did have its own (underused) twist on that. But the core principles that are being used throughout the game were on display and these games don't suddenly morph into something completely different halfway. Doubly so when you're trying to present a vertical slice to an audience in a gameplay presentation meant to sell it.

 

Quote

Fair enough - but at least wall jumping here looks easy. The Super Metroid Wall Jump is the worst wall jump in the history of all gaming wall jumps.

 

It does. It was the first iteration. This is besides the point. If you can do a walljump, don't turn the walljump off without reason. Samus Returns had those peanut butter surfaces to denote where you couldn't use the walljump, but they also had walls that didn't have the stuff and didn't allow walljumps. That's just plain bad.

 

Quote

I like free aiming now, and I think it's a given in modern games - I do wish they'd not bother with it for the grapple though.  Just let me jump close to it and grapple and let Samus work out the rest, aiming while jumping is a pain in the arse.

 

I played Zero Mission to completion just a couple of weeks ago, then started playing Metroid Corruption (I'm at Sky Town) and I'm also about 50% through Samus Returns...

 

and I really enjoy them all and they all feel Metroidy to me.

 

Having said all this, my least favourite Metriod of the ones I've played are Fusion and Super Metroid, so my brain is probably broken.

 

It isn't. Until Other M came along, Fusion was the odd one out. Back when it was released it felt more like a Metal Slug/Contra-like run 'n gun that didn't allow for any exploration. In comparison to Other M though, it's a beacon of the Metroid template.

 

And Super Metroid was the first to actually solidify the concepts, with a lot of high-concepts/glitches being established as actual abilities in both Fusion and Zero Mission. Super Metroid isn't the best Metroid, but it's certainly ranks among the most original in atmosphere, soundtrack and sheer breadth of gameplay mechanics. Nothing else in the 16-bit era had done such a thing to that extend. Jesus, they went even as far as completely rearranging the default controls. Who on earth uses X-A as their main buttons on a SNES platformer?

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1 hour ago, Cyhwuhx said:

 

Yeah, and I get that. I see that happening with games at work on a daily basis. And that's what makes me even more annoyed when I see an interview with Sakamoto praising MercurySteam for "getting Metroid". You've created this entire genre and now you refuse to play ball following your own rules. OK fine, but then rip off the band-aid entirely. Don't go half-way like with Other M and Samus Returns, commit to a new vision then. Pull a God of War.

 

Aye totally, but you know as well as I do that he has to say that, sadly. The leash of Nintendo is strong, but it's the same for all big/mid companies now really. The only way he'd be able to do that is if he goes it alone at some point. And even then, the variables for success are immense considering the other key players who would have contributed to the success of Super/Fusion/Zero etc.

 

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Have to say. I’m not a huge fan of the look of the game tbh. The movement and gameplay looked very satisfying and responsive though. 
 

The art style seemed to miss something for my tastes. It does seem almost a little too clean and sterile as an art direction so far. I never really like the clean 3D but 2D aesthetic in games though. I’m fussy about 2D also as SoR4 didn’t float my boat in terms of the art style used. 

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39 minutes ago, rgraves said:

How on earth can you tell what kind of secret areas the game may or may not have, and how complex they may/may not be to access, based on the opening tutorial section they have shown so far?

 

I guess that comes with the territory of playing too much of these games. I see a bit of gameplay and my brain generates the entire vibe of the game based on that minimal input like some kind of Facebook algorithm. I hope to god I am wrong, but usually I am way too close. (I could for example dive into how non-grid based designs are worse for this type of game compared to grid-based, but again, that would bring out the PowerPoint and piss off a lot of Zelda-fans in the process.)

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22 minutes ago, rgraves said:

It has stuff like this, of course it'll be fabulous:

 

 

 

See, this type of cutscene showboating.... I don't like it. In Super it would be the player herself getting caught by Draygon and connecting to a power source via the grapple beam to toast it to oblivion. Now it's just another thing to look at instead of to experience. But yes, I am getting old, thank you for asking.

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I feel sorry for you really - you've just decided you're not going to like it and are extrapolating all sorts of negative stuff from the small snippet we have.

 

If it comes out and it's shit fair enough, but I just can't get into the mindset of being so negative on such little info.

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18 minutes ago, Cyhwuhx said:

Trust me, I'll be the first to shout it from the rooftops if this turns out to be the next Holy Grail.

 

it's not going to be though - I expect it to be a really really good game and the best 2D metroid we've had since 2004.  I doubt it'll be better than Zero Mission.  That's my favourite.

 

and it'll be better than Hollow Knight that's for sure.

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25 minutes ago, Cyhwuhx said:

Trust me, I'll be the first to shout it from the rooftops if this turns out to be the next Holy Grail.

 

I think the likelihood of it being  that (in your eyes) is slim to none. For the reasons outlined above, but you know that already. ;)

 

What it has every chance of being though is better than Samus returns, a fantastic arcade adventure in the Metroid universe and drawing more people into its charms. Which can hopefully only be a good thing in showing Nintendo that it is an ip worth investing in.

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37 minutes ago, scottcr said:

 

it's not going to be though - I expect it to be a really really good game and the best 2D metroid we've had since 2004.  I doubt it'll be better than Zero Mission.  That's my favourite.

 

and it'll be better than Hollow Knight that's for sure.

 

giphy.gif

 

(One can hope though. :ph34r:)

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