Redfall - Arkane, Summer 2022

[Sixkiller]

3 hours ago, therearerules said:

There's a complete lack of immersive simness in Redfall. It feels like a parody at the start, when it says "there are multiple ways to complete missions- either go through the front door or through a skylight".

 

I had a big LOL moment when a popup told me this after i completed that mission, amongst other pop-ups that were appearing far too late.  It was like the pop up hints were the only thing loading slower than the textures.

[Stanley]

15 hours ago, rgraves said:

 

But this is why they can't win - if he dropped out of that interview, and started taking a back seat, people would just complain about that - "oh he was everywhere when things were going OK and now he's gone silent he doesn't care or listen and just wants our money like the big corp exec he really is".

 

The idea that interview was 'typical' of anything you'd see from either a Nintendo or Sony person blows my mind - we've never seen anything as candid from them (and they've been through some stinkers of their own before) and we should be applauding Spencer for doing it (he certainly didn't have to) and wanting more people to do the same.

 

It's not worked out, but I don't think anyone beleives that was what they wanted to happen - this was certainly not the plan, nobody is sat there right now saying 'job well done folks'. Devs spent years of their lives on this and it's collapsed around them in days - with an uneasy sense of glee from some quarters.

But what are they trying to win, exactly? 
 

I found that interview incredibly whiney and tbh, insulting. The very idea that releasing good games isn’t enough. Just, there are no words. 
 

That Sony or Nintendo are never this candid speaks volumes. They don’t need to be, they let the games do the talking, and when that doesn’t happen as in say, Metroid Prime 4’s delay, they make an announcement and move on. 
 

This is yet another case of the tail wagging the dog with Xbox Game Studios, with little regard for their fans, you know, the ones who are “most financially engaged”. 

[HarryBizzle]

If you listened to that and thought that what he was saying is that good games aren’t enough, you either didn’t listen to it all or there’s something wrong with your comprehension. He speaks at length about how they want to make excellent games. 

[Stanley]

That’s literally what he said - if we make great games people aren’t going to going out and sell their PS5’s. I went back and listened to bits and bobs of it - but there’s nothing wrong with my comprehension. 
 

This is the head of Xbox Games Studios, CEO of Microsoft Gaming, telling you that good games aren’t enough. 

[footle]

4 minutes ago, Stanley said:

That’s literally what he said - if we make great games people aren’t going to going out and sell their PS5’s. I went back and listened to bits and bobs of it - but there’s nothing wrong with my comprehension. 
 

This is the head of Xbox Games Studios, CEO of Microsoft Gaming, telling you that good games aren’t enough. 

which bit is wrong there?

[HarryBizzle]

9 minutes ago, Stanley said:

That’s literally what he said - if we make great games people aren’t going to going out and sell their PS5’s. I went back and listened to bits and bobs of it - but there’s nothing wrong with my comprehension. 
 

This is the head of Xbox Games Studios, CEO of Microsoft Gaming, telling you that good games aren’t enough. 

No it’s not, Stanley. Go back and listen to it again, except don’t jump around. He speaks at length about them being committed to the industry and to making great games regardless of whether they are first or third in the industry. If you hadn’t skipped that but then the bit you did actually listen to would make sense in that context. 
 

He also acknowledges they haven’t delivered, that it’s all on him, that they could have done more to support Arkane, and that nothing he says matters means anything until we’re actually playing and happy with the games. Dunno what your definition of whiney is, but that doesn’t fit with mine. 
 

I don’t know why you would even offer a view on what he’s said if you can’t be bothered to listen to it all. 

[jonny_rat]

Maybe I have poor taste (I do) but I'm with Christian from EG on this: there's something weirdly charming amongst all the mess. Without getting into the weeds in what is or isn't an immersive sim, it's nabbed a few bits from the Arkane immersive sim template and it's okay! I like that for all the bits where the room design is weird, or empty, or undercooked, the town is a nice place to explore, and it feels laid out like an actual place. I've seen some nice character moments, even done a couple of missions I enjoyed. I like activating multiple missions in the same area and working through them. There's absolutely loads that doesn't work: like, almost too much to get into. The first hour is such a problem - much more so than the bugs or 30fps. It's not just that it isn't a fun hour (it isn't) - there's so many roadbumps and points of friction that need more work.

 

Also: when did they start making this? Was it.. just after stranger things became popular, perhaps? Either way it's got some minor Stephen King vibes and I like it. The voice acting on my guy Dev though: yikes

[Stanley]

26 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

No it’s not, Stanley. Go back and listen to it again, except don’t jump around. He speaks at length about them being committed to the industry and to making great games regardless of whether they are first or third in the industry. If you hadn’t skipped that but then the bit you did actually listen to would make sense in that context. 
 

He also acknowledges they haven’t delivered, that it’s all on him, that they could have done more to support Arkane, and that nothing he says matters means anything until we’re actually playing and happy with the games. Dunno what your definition of whiney is, but that doesn’t fit with mine. 
 

I don’t know why you would even offer a view on what he’s said if you can’t be bothered to listen to it all. 

I quoted him pretty much verbatim, and I won’t get caught up in this whole “our vision doing our own thing” PR talk. The facts are that they have under delivered, and regardless of their strategy or goals with Xcloud, Game Pass etc. the reason they are not doing well is because they do not release compelling software and haven’t for a long time. 
 

He mentioned losing the worst generation you could lose, and how that created problems for their brand this generation. 
 

The problem is that they just kept doing the same thing they did last generation, by not releasing software as good as Sony or Nintendo, not digital libraries. 
 

As for failing that generation. 

 

Here’s some whataboutery for you.

 

What about Switch? 
 

When it came to failing that generation I don’t think anyone could claim to have failed quite as spectacularly as Nintendo with the Wii U, yet here we are a week away from perhaps the most hyped game ever, with expectations through the roof that no one could hope to deliver on, and yet they probably will. 

[HarryBizzle]

The point is that they are doing well. Just not as well as their competitors.  They do not need to sell more consoles that Nintendo or Sony to have a successful platform. 

[Stanley]

46 minutes ago, footle said:

which bit is wrong there?

Well he’s right in the sense that they might not sell their PS5’s, why would they? But wrong if he thinks they wouldn’t sell more Xbox’s. It’s not an either/or decision.

[Stanley]

4 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

The point is that they are doing well. Just not as well as their competitors.  They do not need to sell more consoles that Nintendo or Sony to have a successful platform. 

Personally I would call your first AAA release in 18 months receiving 4/10’s doing well. 

[HarryBizzle]

30 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Well he’s right in the sense that they might not sell their PS5’s, why would they? But wrong if he thinks they wouldn’t sell more Xbox’s. It’s not an either/or decision.

I think the idea that he isn’t aware of this is fanciful at best. It wasn’t the point he was trying to make, but you seem hell bent on misinterpreting it so we might as well move on. 

[Stanley]

3 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

I think the idea that he isn’t aware of this is fanciful at best. It wasn’t the point he was trying to make, but you seem hell bent on misinterpreting it so we might as well move on. 

I haven’t misinterpreted anything. I mean look, he’s right, good games aren’t enough. You need games that can go toe to toe with Animal Crossing or Horizon etc. you need that little bit extra. And that’s what I want to hear from the studio head of Xbox at this point, not some halfhearted commitment to try and help studios etc etc. 

 

I don’t want to be down on Phil, he a great guy. But after a decade or more of trying, perhaps he’s just not the right guy, sadly.

[jonny_rat]

What role do you think publishers play in getting great games produced if not in helping their studios?

[Stanley]

1 minute ago, jonny_rat said:

What role do you think publishers play in getting great games produced if not in helping their studios?

No idea, not the first clue about games development. I would have thought it goes without saying tbh, although apparently they admittedly dropped the ball with Redfall. 

[Clipper]

In that interview spencer mentions what they do and where it went wrong with redfall.

 

He says arkane were struggling with UE(5?) and that is why 60fps was delayed. He said that they have brought in help from “experts” from coalition(big on UE5 apparently) and rare but he/MS should have been more proactive in offering that help. 
 

as people say MS have the teams and when they were too hands on it ruined them - now they try to be more hands off and spencer is talking about enabling cross team help more often instead of it being too late.

[MidWalian]

Redfall is developed in a later version of UE4. Prey was CryEngine although the Typhon Hunter DLC was UE4.

 

Moving engines can be bumpy and UE4 is problematic when it comes to open world games and texture loading etc.

 

I do think many issues in Redfall can be sorted but will it really get that Sea of thieves type commitment to turn it around? Time will tell. I'll check it out again at Halloween.

[HarryBizzle]

34 minutes ago, MidWalian said:

Redfall is developed in a later version of UE4. Prey was CryEngine although the Typhon Hunter DLC was UE4.

 

Moving engines can be bumpy and UE4 is problematic when it comes to open world games and texture loading etc.

 

I do think many issues in Redfall can be sorted but will it really get that Sea of thieves type commitment to turn it around? Time will tell. I'll check it out again at Halloween.

I think he was fairly clear when he was talking about when to delay (polish vs vision) that they are committed to polishing it but it essentially needs rebuilding from the ground up to be made into the game people wanted which they’re not going to be doing. He’s probably right, there. 

[Alex W.]

18 hours ago, Harsin said:

That’s my thought as well. All the stuff I like about games like Prey and Dishonoured - methodically making my way around, checking every drawer, piecing together what happened through environmental details, poring over text and audio messages - are really not a fit for co-op.

 

17 hours ago, therearerules said:

You can definitely make a co-op game with different approaches though - one of you can hack your way in, another stealth, another shapeshift, another blink etc etc. But here it's all just pull a switch or find a key. It's really important to understand this has none of the Arkane multiple approaches mechanics.

I played all of System Shock 2 in co-op, and thanks to that sufficiently non-linear world it’s excellent. A lot of splitting up, scavenging and sharing resources, exchanging information verbally that you’ve found in logs - “uh, listen to this” - it’s like an interactive version of the first act of a sci-fi horror movie.

 

A modern “immersive sim” like the Bioshock games with locked-room pseudo-cut-scenes and set-pieces, a strict linear world and boss fights would be a complete non-starter but I could see it working in something as open as most of Dishonored.

[MidWalian]

Towards the end of the clip he talks about continuing to "work the game" and cites Sea of thieves and Grounded as an example.

 

[Alex W.]

Does that sort of service game upgrading work for an immersive sim?

 

Come to think of it, those key parts of a service game, that being this elite force taking on a constantly renewable series of enemies in perpetuity is perhaps antithetical to the immersive sim fantasy of being this small but ingenious wrench in the works that creates dramatic permanent change.

 

Or in other words, I’ve not played Redfall but it all looks very much like Destiny x Immersive Sim which seems like it fundamentally doesn’t work?

[HarryBizzle]

Grounded launched in Early Access and Sea of Thieves had better content dropped into it’s framework. 
 

This game would need loads of new missions, bits of the world redesigned to accommodate more varied gameplay, the powers being reworked and might still end up being pretty average. 
 

Really unfortunate. Dishonored always did a good job of making you were in contiguous bits of a city because of how open the levels felt and how cohesive the world was. The fact that this is just a big barren map doesn’t seem fixable. 

[jonny_rat]

1 hour ago, Alex W. said:

Does that sort of service game upgrading work for an immersive sim?

 

Come to think of it, those key parts of a service game, that being this elite force taking on a constantly renewable series of enemies in perpetuity is perhaps antithetical to the immersive sim fantasy of being this small but ingenious wrench in the works that creates dramatic permanent change.

 

Or in other words, I’ve not played Redfall but it all looks very much like Destiny x Immersive Sim which seems like it fundamentally doesn’t work?

I think it's closer to L4D with a mission structure, more loot, an open world-y design, and some stuff pilfered from their immersive sim games. Making it more like a service game seems like it'd be tricky, though if it was successful they could add other areas, classes, enemy types etc. It's hard to see how a season pass would fit into this right now for example, unless it was extra story mission branches like Sea of Thieves or something.

[Opinionated Ham Scarecrow]

I'm quite enjoying this *shrug*

[macosx]

I thought from the trailers it looked like it was going to be like L4D @jonny_rat, ie solid coop action, here you have to traipse for a few minutes to find the action.

[Clipper]

yeah I have a couple of missions under my belt and its quite fun. Jank/performance/popping textures/AI problems etc but despite that I like the concept and gameplay loop. The hub gives me a shortish bitesized mission and I go and do it. I liked the downed helicopter sites as it let me approach as I wanted and i caught a supply drop on the way and sniped the cultists from above so there are alternative ways to do things. More than one vampire at once gives me the heeby jeebies So far it works for my gaming time and the controls are nice and simple so I won't forget them.

 

Actually reminds me of State of Decay (without the base building which I didn't like anyway)

[jonny_rat]

59 minutes ago, macosx said:

I thought from the trailers it looked like it was going to be like L4D @jonny_rat, ie solid coop action, here you have to traipse for a few minutes to find the action.

Yeah, it's sorely missing something like the Director thing that L4D had to keep the pace up. The spaces between missions are much more sedate (read: empty) here. Although you sometimes come across battles between two opposing sides, which I always approve of in hand.

[TehStu]

6 hours ago, Clipper said:

as people say MS have the teams and when they were too hands on it ruined them - now they try to be more hands off and spencer is talking about enabling cross team help more often instead of it being too late.

This is the bit MS can't win, and everything is appraised through the 90s lens. I suppose what little goodwill they clawed back toward the end of the XB1 has been lost, for many. They've never really had reserves of it in the consumer space.

 

I mean, Google could take a shit on people's lap and it wouldn't be too bad.

[Clipper]

2 minutes ago, TehStu said:

This is the bit MS can't win, and everything is appraised through the 90s lens. I suppose what little goodwill they clawed back toward the end of the XB1 has been lost, for many. They've never really had reserves of it in the consumer space.

 

I mean, Google could take a shit on people's lap and it wouldn't be too bad.

yeah Sony shuttered Evolution and Sony Liverpool/Psygnosis (to name two really good devs whose games I loved and so really hated them closing) but they rarely get the same ire for "mismanaging" those studios as MS get for closing, say, Lionhead (again shutting the creators of Fable is a disgrace and Lionhead got shafted).

 

deserved ire in all cases dammit!

 

 

[TehStu]

Man, I forgot Lionhead. Good grief. I'd be up for more Magic Carpet.