Redfall - Arkane, Summer 2022

[LaveDisco]

Couple of thoughts

 

on the video:

 

1) now they’ve found themselves here, I’m convinced they decided that admitting to the reviews and problems is the best approach because a) it maintains credibility with the nerds (when no one else will care) and b) it let’s them push the “MS is struggling to be competitive without activision angle.” “Even with the biggest hit ever we won’t ever get a single PlayStation customer to leave them. Woe is us.”  That’s intentional PR that is. 
 

2) streamed this tonight because no way am I wasting the download and based on 30 mins or so, it’s… fine. 6/10 - but not a disaster. 
 

3) The streaming works so much better than a year ago. Fast, responsive. Really impressed. 

[AI]

1 hour ago, Stanley said:

He seems able to recognise exactly what Xbox needs, but he’s unable to achieve it. 

 

1. Game Pass Ultimate 3 years access on Xbox/PC for £1. Bargain!

2. Develop and publish at least one exclusive AAA game on a quarterly release schedule to grow subscriber numbers exponentially. Nothing stops this train!

3. ...Hello?

4. Spend $Billions for ZeniMax and Activision to access their games and franchises instead as your internal studios have forgotten how to make games for some reason.

5. CMA! *sad trombone*

6. Redfall! *sad trombone*

7. ???

8. Profit!

[macosx]

I when playing I compared this to the original Dying light (mainly due to the UV safehouses); which if you swap the zombies for vampires is quite similar. In DL though the game is absolutely swarming with enemies and a real sense of tension and a sense of place and the passage of time to night creates real fear with much stronger enemies.

 

Redfall just feels so diluted as a concept thoughif it had some much better Ai and more enemies and felt more like vampire survival rather than a pedestrian slog through an empty gameworld it would be better; but as Spencer intimated it’s the core artistic slant of the game that has failed and is unfixable rather than technical issues.

I just can’t see the core gameplay concept where they pinned their design on; bar shrugging and saying ‘vampires’. There’s just no usual Arkane clever concepts at all, it’s just generic bland shooting.

[Exit Chamber]

I've finally realised what this reminds me of for some reason, Defiance, the MMO sci-fi shooter with the sketchy TV show that was made at the same time. It was absolutely bang-average but I also found it weirdly compelling and played probably more of it than I should have.

[Sixkiller]

11 hours ago, HarryBizzle said:

It’s not standard exec speak to say how negative you’re feeling and to say stuff like “we lost the worst generation to lose.”

 

 

Interestingly, he also basically acknowledges that the problems with Redfall aren’t really fixable with a bit more polish and it’s the game just not living up to what they wanted it to be. 

 

 

Didn't he also say something like "I'm already vastly overpaid for the job I do" at one point in the interview?  And whilst you could argue that was humour, he made it very clear he was not in the mood for any humour.  Very odd thing to say. 

 

His whole vibe was that of a football manager who's just admitting that his players are shite and that he can't turn it around quickly because the previous manager fucked up so much.  Big Ragnick/Conte vibes.  Wouldn't be shocked if he's not there this time next year.

[HarryBizzle]

14 minutes ago, Sixkiller said:

 

 

Didn't he also say something like "I'm already vastly overpaid for the job I do" at one point in the interview?  And whilst you could argue that was humour, he made it very clear he was not in the mood for any humour.  Very odd thing to say. 

 

His whole vibe was that of a football manager who's just admitting that his players are shite and that he can't turn it around quickly because the previous manager fucked up so much.  Big Ragnick/Conte vibes.  Wouldn't be shocked if he's not there this time next year.

He also said right now this is all on me but I suppose if I get a few more strikes against me it might be someone else sitting here.  

[Harsin]

There's clearly something deeply wrong with Microsoft's internal game quality evaluations that they really need to fix. The fact that their internal reviewers told them this was going to be good (to the extent they decided to make it their first £70 game) is worrying. Lest we forget, that initial utterly disastrous Halo Infinite reveal would have gone through multiple levels of internal committees and checks and balances and based on that they decided that it was ready to show off as the flagship game they planned to help them sell their new console.

[Sixkiller]

9 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

He also said right now this is all on me but I suppose if I get a few more strikes against me it might be someone else sitting here.  

 

😂 even more 'manager on his way out' vibes in that!

 

Give it to Allardyce until the end of the generation.

[jonny_rat]

5 minutes ago, Harsin said:

There's clearly something deeply wrong with Microsoft's internal game quality evaluations that they really need to fix. The fact that their internal reviewers told them this was going to be good (to the extent they decided to make it their first £70 game) is worrying. Lest we forget, that initial utterly disastrous Halo Infinite reveal would have gone through multiple levels of internal committees and checks and balances and based on that they decided that it was ready to show off as the flagship game they planned to help them sell their new console.

This was the fascinating bit to me (my job is in games user research): we do usually encourage studios to move from mock reviews to independently-sourced player feedback. (In their defence, I reckon the mock reviews he's talking about here aren't really done by an internal team: they usually have ex journalists on hand to do these who work as external contractors.) But it's hard, because you often get someone at the top who likes mock reviews: it's the way they have always done things, and they don't want to change that. And then this happens, because they're either just not a very reliable predictor of real life impact, or something has gone wrong with the relationship between reviewer and studio (e.g., they've developed a friendly relationship and are less likely to give negative feedback, or they have 'overbriefed' them, telling them to only play it co-op, or something like that).

 

I'm a bit surprised by it, because I know Microsoft and Zenimax have lots of playtesting expertise and facilities that they make available to their studios; that's not something that needs fixing. It feels strange and a bit telling then that someone at the top chooses to mention the mock reviews - the lowest-quality indicator of real world performance - over all the other sources of evidence that they should have had available to them.

 

I love that interview with Spencer by the way. It's amazing, and I don't even really like him that much! You don't get many insights like that, certainly not in one place.

[Pob]

I reckon it might be a combination of the thing someone mentioned earlier - that most games are unplayable messes until right up the end of development - with faith in Arkane to create a great game when left to their own devices. Phil Spencer always comes across very authentically - perhaps he's more of a fan than a hard-nosed businessman and want to believe in Arkane's ability to turn out another critical darling.

 

Presumably with these internal reviews you have to try to see the end vision and hope that the developer can get there.

[Uncle Mike]

I thought that Spencer interview was quite revealing, and you have to give credit for having done it so close to a load of bad news, but it's got some revealing parts in there that I think weren't entirely genuine.

 

The long bit about "I'd never tell a studio that they can only make the thing that they're good at", for example, which seemed to be responding to an imagined complaint that Arkane should only make "Arkane" games that I don't really think has been customer feedback at all. The complaint has been that they probably shouldn't have made a crappy trend-chasing GaaS effort that clearly couldn't be polished (by his own admission) into a decent shape even if you gave it another year.

 

And then you had a bunch of "we've already lost, because we didn't do well with Xbox One, and even if we made good games now it doesn't matter because we suck" that seemed to be hoping that the CMA were watching.

 

He's obviously garrulous and audience-winning, but it seems contrived to an extent.

[metallicfrodo]

12 hours ago, PeteJ said:

Hmm, somehow I'm six hours in. 

 

So the vampire nests offer a hint of something better. There's some creative flare in their mini-remix of Redfall but then ultimately it falls flat due to the limited enemy count and variation, and terribly bland combat. Also, the whole whole concept is poorly explained and executed. Hmm, I did say a hint of something better. Note, I've only done one.

 

Unfortuantely they don't or at least not obviously yet. When I did the first one I thought it might be interesting, but having done two more they have all been very similar, to the extent that you start in the same greenhouse type place and they run past that swimming pool with the body in it. There seem to be modifiers on them but they didn't add much, and they are basically just straight corridors with some type of building at the end (in fact that first one with the theatre and having to start the film, assuming that was the one you got was by far the most interesting.

 

Having said that, and I feel like I'm becoming an apologist for this game, I am still enjoying it. I've done some more interesting missions and there are some mechanics that it brings in later around threat level that could be cool. I've also met a few new vampire types and there has been some reasonably well done story/world building in the missions.

 

It is pretty easy on the default setting though, and certainly with the Raven character I am playing as the cloak ability makes it simple to just run away if you are in a situation where you might be over run. I personallly don't mind this though as it makes it a reasonably relaxed experience. Although with the vampire horror theme they are going for that probably isn't great. The UV certainly makes the base vampires no problem even when a load rush you.

 

I've mentioned it before but I really am getting The Division vibs from it, the guns and the kind of perks that you get on them and some of bonuses you get from the blood vials feel like they have been ripped straight from that. The AI even feels liked the shielded shotgunners that just used to walk towards you regardless of how you were shooting at them. As has been pointed out though, it's so empty for a lot of the time, then you come across a little cluster of people and then nothing for ages.

 

The upgrades on the abilities do seem to be worth something now, it's just that it takes a while for that to happen.

 

I'm also assuming that once I finish off the mission I am on that more areas are going to open up. So for all I know these areas will be more densly populated with enemies or with more interesting things to do, but from the reception it's got from reviewers who I assume have seen all of that it doesn't appear that is the case.

 

They have also made the baffling decision to have the main character chatter occasionally, which means that you very soon start hearing the same quote over and over again. I don't know why you'd do this in a game you are expecting people to play for 10s of hours, you are never going to have enough dialogue to make that happen. Also a lot of the enemies are annoyed that I killed their friend, despite it suggesting that to get into the cult they had to kill a friend or neighbour.

 

It does get one thing right in that the battles between the different groups actually seem to work, in that people are killed (in Destiny it never feels like the fights just go on indefinitely). However it does highlight the weird AI when you see them attack and then everyone might just stand there looking at each other for a few moments and they they attack again.

[HarryBizzle]

1 hour ago, Uncle Mike said:

The long bit about "I'd never tell a studio that they can only make the thing that they're good at", for example, which seemed to be responding to an imagined complaint that Arkane should only make "Arkane" games that I don't really think has been customer feedback at all. The complaint has been that they probably shouldn't have made a crappy trend-chasing GaaS effort that clearly couldn't be polished (by his own admission) into a decent shape even if you gave it another year.

 

And then you had a bunch of "we've already lost, because we didn't do well with Xbox One, and even if we made good games now it doesn't matter because we suck" that seemed to be hoping that the CMA were watching.

 

I think on the former point, this is a game that was in development long before the Bethesda deal, so I don't think it's fair to level that on him.

For the latter, I don't think he was trying to say woe is me, I think it was more that the idea that all MS need to do to "win" the console wars is knock out bangers, when that's not even the game they're playing. He's absolutely right that making a load of 10/10 games is not going to have them beating Sony. The idea that the CMA might be watching an interview with Kind Funny Games and that it might influence their decision making is far fetched to say the least.

 

I have to say I'm a bit surprised at just how unhappy people seem to be with MS. I'm sad that we got a crap game from Arkane but I get so many bangers via Game Pass that I struggle to see how people can be unhappy as a whole, or think that Game Pass isn't good value.

[Uncle Mike]

5 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

He's absolutely right that making a load of 10/10 games is not going to have them beating Sony.

 

Is he? Maybe not beating straightaway, but making inroads? If making good games isn't the way, what is? Having a compelling subs model clearly goes a certain way, but if making good games isn't part of the strategy, why are they buying Zenimax and Activision?

[Harsin]

Making good games is surely the bare minimum you should be expecting of any games publisher.

[SozzlyJoe]

Christian Donlan likes it, for the most Christian Donlan of reasons (he admits the gameplay is kinda bad)

Quote

Years back there was another games writer I used to meet at events now and then who told me once that, every year or so, he re-read Ray Bradbury's The October Country just to get that smoky, clapboard, spooky feeling, that sweet bucolic melancholy that was out of reach most of the time living in London and being nowhere near pine trees and owning an iPhone. I can see Redfall becoming something like this for me - an annual vacation, in the buzzing depths of summer, whisking me to a distant place where it is always almost Halloween.

https://www.eurogamer.net/redfall-review-a-bit-of-a-mess-but-not-without-its-pleasures

[Clipper]

I have played the first mission and I quite liked it. The vibe and atmosphere felt bizarrely a bit "alan wake" which I loved - that sort of bizarro it is almost like the real world but not quite - like a section of the world cut off and has different weird rules. So a bit Alan Wake in atmosphere and a bit Left4Dead in gameplay feel - compact missions.

 

Graphically it is not a stunner and it plays to me like a mid tier game not a £70 blockbuster (which suits me fine). I'll be carrying on with it as it is fun so far.

[Girth Certificate]

Boakolic Melancholy, more like

[fattakin]

I wonder why they didnt just stick an 'early access' on it like Grounded and let it soft release? Would have lowered expectations

 

[Stanley]

48 minutes ago, Harsin said:

Making good games is surely the bare minimum you should be expecting of any games publisher.

Yeah it’s an odd thing to say really. Had we seen more of the games by now that they trailed at the start of this gen, and they turned out great, then I certainly don’t think it wouldn’t achieve anything. 
 

You only have to look at the sales figures for Sony first party, and the difference in perception that makes. 

[HarryBizzle]

1 hour ago, Uncle Mike said:

 

Is he? Maybe not beating straightaway, but making inroads? If making good games isn't the way, what is? Having a compelling subs model clearly goes a certain way, but if making good games isn't part of the strategy, why are they buying Zenimax and Activision?

He’s very clear that they want to make good games. His comments are more about how they remain committed to the industry despite being third place and how “out-consoling” Sony isn’t a focus for them. 

[Yiggy]

3 minutes ago, Stanley said:

You only have to look at the sales figures for Sony first party, and the difference in perception that makes. 

What complicates things more is that the performance of gamepass games is pretty well hidden. The publicity that a ‘number 1’ like God of War gives and the buzz it creates shouldn’t be underestimated. Games fizzle out quite quickly on gamepass. Only example of a recent AAA game with a longish tail that challenged this was maybe the last Forza Horizon? 
 

MS have already said they’ve flatlined with Gamepass subs so what’s the measure of success? Does it change to keeping the subscribers you’ve got rather than attracting new ones? I reckon a constant stream of 7/10 games is likely to do that at least. But I for one would consider switching to PS5 if the v2 hardware looks a bit better. 

[rgraves]

14 hours ago, Stanley said:

I’ve always found him pretty candid and likeable, charismatic even. But it should be the games getting all the attention, and I’d rather he took a back seat from now on

 

But this is why they can't win - if he dropped out of that interview, and started taking a back seat, people would just complain about that - "oh he was everywhere when things were going OK and now he's gone silent he doesn't care or listen and just wants our money like the big corp exec he really is".

 

The idea that interview was 'typical' of anything you'd see from either a Nintendo or Sony person blows my mind - we've never seen anything as candid from them (and they've been through some stinkers of their own before) and we should be applauding Spencer for doing it (he certainly didn't have to) and wanting more people to do the same.

 

It's not worked out, but I don't think anyone beleives that was what they wanted to happen - this was certainly not the plan, nobody is sat there right now saying 'job well done folks'. Devs spent years of their lives on this and it's collapsed around them in days - with an uneasy sense of glee from some quarters.

[Opinionated Ham Scarecrow]

6 hours ago, Exit Chamber said:

I've finally realised what this reminds me of for some reason, Defiance, the MMO sci-fi shooter with the sketchy TV show that was made at the same time. It was absolutely bang-average but I also found it weirdly compelling and played probably more of it than I should have.

I loved that game! You are right in that it was bang average, but there was something compelling about it, and I even played it again fairly recently before the servers shut the doors finally. Maybe I will give this a go after all.

[RubberJohnny]

This actually had the same devs as Defiance (Roundhouse, who used to be Human Head)

[Kevvy Metal]

43 minutes ago, fattakin said:

I wonder why they didnt just stick an 'early access' on it like Grounded and let it soft release? Would have lowered expectations

 

 

They would have needed to have an actual clear understanding of the state of the game before launch, because according to Uncle Phil, they thought they had a "80+ metacritic" winner on their hands! 

[therearerules]

1 hour ago, SozzlyJoe said:

Christian Donlan likes it, for the most Christian Donlan of reasons (he admits the gameplay is kinda bad)

https://www.eurogamer.net/redfall-review-a-bit-of-a-mess-but-not-without-its-pleasures

 

He's got much lower expectations of immersive Sims than I do

 

Quote

Levels will give you a wide range of ways to approach them. (If you can get to work through a door or through a vent: welcome! You're in an immersive sim!)

 

There's a complete lack of immersive simness in Redfall. It feels like a parody at the start, when it says "there are multiple ways to complete missions- either go through the front door or through a skylight".

 

There's one way to complete missions-shoot the baddies.

[Exit Chamber]

9 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

This actually had the same devs as Defiance (Roundhouse, who used to be Human Head)

 

No way! Well I guess that explains that.

[Majora]

I don't understand all this mocking of the, ahem, mock reviews. Why wouldn't you take notice of what the mock reviews are telling you? Mock reviews aren't some crazy thing Microsoft have just invented out of nowhere.

 

I don't quite get this quote though

 

Quote

On the review scores, we do mock reviews and Redfall got double digits from our mock reviews so the reviews it actually got are much lower. We never thought it'd review in the low 60s.

 

It got 'double digits'. What does that mean exactly? I would assume that means they are marked out of 15 for a double digit score to sound even vaguely impressive?!

 

It does raise the question of where the bar is for a mock review internally though. I mean, an 11 out of 15 wouldn't exactly be a barnstormer but at what point do you cut your losses and just say, eh you know what this a 70s kind of game and if we delay it a year it's probably still going to be a high 70s kind of game. Maybe we just accept it is what it is, it'll never be a 90+ or even an 85+ because it's fundamentally kind of flawed and just move on?

[Kevvy Metal]

15 hours ago, MidWalian said:

Texture pop-in hell.

 

 

 

Was just about to share this. 

The texture loading pop-in issues are absolutely insane. It's so bad!