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Euro 2020 - Congrats Italy


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1 hour ago, John0 said:

Sorry for the downer but I was out in society for the England game and kind didn't prepare myself for what that might be like when the opponents are Germany. Think I've heard enough renditions of "10 German Bombers" to last me a lifetime and there was a few "1 World Cup and 2 World Wars" thrown in as well of course. Along with the utterly classless booing of the German anthem it really made it hard to fully enjoy what was an amazing result. I kind of naively thought maybe we'd outgrown this stuff, but it was yet another reminder of what a nasty, bitter little nation we are in some ways.

 

Over the moon for Southgate and the whole team though! Especially Sterling who gets so much undeserved shit. Gonna watch those highlights a few times today :wub:

 

How much of this is actually drunken boorishness, though, and how much of it is just leaning into a friendly rivalry, with mates having fun singing stupid songs? Whenever I've been in a pub watching England play Germany (most notably in 2001 for the glorious 5-1 victory), the people I've been with have been leaning into the ridiculousness of it all, not being racist or 'nasty and bitter' in the slightest. I'm sure there are those who do that, but I don't think it's quite as described.

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1 hour ago, Stoppy2000 said:

Also to even suggest Rashford as a possible replacement completely undermines your pick on form argument - Rashford has had a pretty bad season (mainly due to injury I think).

 

 

Well, Rashford got 21 goals and 15 assists last season, playing, as you say, with two quite bad injuries for most of the season, so I don't know if you can describe that as "pretty bad" but he's a winger, not a striker.  He was definitely "pretty bad" whenever he played right up front.

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5 minutes ago, feltmonkey said:

 

Dropping Kane to play Saka or Grealish at centre forward would be stupid.  Of course Kane isn't immune to being dropped - I never suggested that.  But your tactical switch of dropping a specialist in that position to play someone who can't play there is a touch unwise.  That's what your original post suggested, so I reacted to that.  Rashford or Calvert-Lewin is a better idea, except that Rashford is not very good as an out and out striker either, and Calvert-Lewin is nowhere near as good a player as Kane.  

 

Kane isn't a "decent player" he's world class.  He's probably the only genuinely world class player we have.  He's not looked himself at all this tournament, but he's still Harry Kane, the most prolific striker in the toughest league in the world, the guy who has scored 35 goals in 58 England appearances.  He is being picked "on merit" because football didn't start two weeks ago when we played Croatia.  If a key player is out of form, the manager has a very difficult decision to make.  Do you drop a player because he misfires in three games?  Or do you trust that he is good enough to turn his form around, and recognise that it would be much more difficult to win this tournament without Kane?  The phrase "form is temporary, class is permenant" is relevant here.  

 

You dismiss the idea that he's not getting any service, and say that he should be running around closing defenders down so that the fans can see that he's trying.  Service is everything to a striker.  You can have the best striker in the world (and arguably we do*) but if you're not getting him the ball he's not going to score.  We haven't played the kind of passes he thrives on.  We haven't been getting into good wide positions and playing the ball across (like we did last night for both goals, and suddenly Kane came alive and scored) we haven't been playing balls through to him, and we haven't even been creating those spaces for him to shoot from range.  Of course, it's not just the job of the players around him to create chances for him - Kane has to make the runs.  I've seen him doing this, but his movement looks weirdly sluggish, there's not his usual sharpness.  He looks really slow.  This is why I wonder if he's injured.  He always plays through injuries, and England aren't going to publicise an injury to their best player and give opponents something to lift them.  If he's playing injured, and England have decided that's the best thing to do, you want the opposition to fear him as much as they would fear a fully fit Harry Kane.  He's also playing a different role to what he sometimes does, he's not dropping deep, he's staying up top and occupying defenders more.  

 

Running around and closing down defenders is not a default tactic, either.  There will be triggers for the team to press.  Often you will allow their centre backs to have the ball because they're not going to hurt you with it.  This gives you extra players to press in midfield when the ball is passed forward, and you can win it back easier.  Kane might be under instructions not to press at maximum intensity.  This plays into the theory that he's not fully fit, of course.  Anyway, that tweet doesn't ring true regardless.  It's a baseless attack designed to appeal to the ignorant.

 

I agree that it was crazy to not have Calvert-Lewin on the bench last night.  I've been frustrated by Kane as well in this tournament - I'm sure I've expressed that several times in this thread.  But lets leave some room for nuance and thought rather than raging.  That's the thing that Southgate has brought to this England team - calm, measured consideration.  It seems to work a lot better than randomly building up some chosen players as heroes and vilifying others on a whim.  If Southgate listened to the loudest fans (and to be fair me) Sterling wouldn't have been starting in the tournament and he's scored most of our goals.

 

*

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I know people are going to tell me that I'm only saying this because he scored yesterday.  "Oh typical England fan, as soon as one of our players does anything they're the best in the world."  Yeah, yeah.  Well, I believed Kane was one of the best players in the world before the tournament, I've been saying it for years.  He's an incredible player.  He's also been shit in this tournament.  I can see that.  It's possible for both things to be true, like it often was for Rooney.

 

 

Can I just say as a very casual football watcher whose ability to read the game is even worse than your average ITV co-commentator, I really appreciate posts like this. It might all be complete bollocks of course ;) but it sounds completely plausible to me! And it really helps to put the performance into context and perspective.

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Seems like some of you leaning into your right as a grown adult to be an unfunny twat about a distraught child are also quite keen to dismiss the wider excesses of the moronic English fanbase. Funny that.

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It’s hard to criticise Kane too much yesterday. His job is to put the ball in the back of the net and he did just that. People seem to be looking for a return of Rooney running around like a headless chicken in an England shirt, all endeavour no discipline or nous. Players play to their roles, understand the game plan and execute it. When we watched the ‘golden generation’ flapping about we used to lament that we didn’t have calm and tactically astute team like the Germans or Italians did. Now we do it’s all ‘where’s our Roy of the Rovers’?

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1 minute ago, ChewMagma said:

Seems like some of you leaning into your right as a grown adult to be an unfunny twat about a distraught child are also quite keen to dismiss the wider excesses of the moronic English fanbase. Funny that.

 

Or alternatively we'd rather bask in the glow of a once in half-century victory over Germany than wallow in guilt and self-loathing over how unpleasant some of our fans are.

 

It's actually rather condescending to other nations to think that our people are somehow uniquely appalling and evil in a way that people in other nations aren't.

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Anyway, Kane was awful for at least an hour last night. Yet, created the space that led to the first and scored the second. 

 

What also happens when he plays is he gets double marked. Plenty of times last night around the area he had two defenders stuck to him like glue.

And that creates gaps for Sterling and Saka to run into. I just don't see the opposition being as worried about DCL.

 

He's quite clearly not playing with even half the instinct or movement we see when he's at his peak. But he is still SO important to our system, I'm gonna need a lengthy essay to convince me England as a team would play better without him.

 

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When you look at the things he's measurably done in games Kane hasn't looked great - but there is a need to look beyond that too.

 

Do you think any of the opponents have gone pre match 'he's shit lads leave him alone in the box', do you think his presence in an attack doesn't draw defenders leaving space for Sterling, Saka, Grealish to move into and exploit. Do you think at set pieces he isn't a massive nuisance attracting the attention of opponents (especially now he's not taking the corners).

 

Our lack of persistent attacking intent has lead the team to not have lots of shots, he's starved of service, but he's doing a lot of other things.

 

Only an idiot would think it wouldn't be a massive boost to Ukraine in the next game if he wasn't on the starting team sheet and on the bench in favour of Calvert Lewin or a midfielder who doesn't even play in that role. Can't see Southgate going all Pep and deploying a false 9 for the first time in the tournament in the biggest game to date.

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17 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

Have a day off.

 

Ok fair enough, I get it, I'll let it go, the attitude in here just surprises me a bit. For what it is worth, I'm immensely enjoying the success of this England team, I had a tear in my eye listening to Southgate yesterday, I'm still buzzing today.

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I'm not sure I'm getting my point over - or people are just ignoring it to concentrate on other bits out of context:

 

I've said *multiple times* that I believe Kane is a good (very good) player, and I'm not suggesting we drop him for Saturday. Absolutely not, not in question at all for me. All the 'he's won golden boots' stuff could be said for Henderson as well - he's not had a bad few seasons with regards to awards and trophies, but they mean nothing when you look at how Rice and, particularly, Philipps have seized their opportunity. Bravo to them. That's the right message - you need to perform to stay in this England team.

 

What I am saying, and that I think mutiple people are agreeing with, is that he's clearly not quite right. He's not performing at the level we know he can. Now, this could be service, or it could be injury/fitness - but either way it's incredibly unlikely that we're going to be able to carry a player performing at 50-60% through a whole tournament to a win. At some point, he's either going to need to start performing better (fingers crossed now he has his goal) or Southgate is going to have to address it (by either adjusting tactics to try and provide better service, or changing personnel).

 

I'm not saying Grealish or Saka are direct replacements for Kane (because they're not obviously) - I'm saying they are playing in top form and Southgate has to be thinking about ways to maximise that for the team - get the people in form on the pitch as much as possible (and no before some wag goes and suggests it, that doesn't mean I want to play them all because clearly is about finding the right balance and combination).

 

BLOT: Not having DCL even on the bench was a really odd move that left us with a lack of viable alternative options up-front. Didn't matter in this one thankfully, but might not be a bad thing to see as a learning for Saturday just in case. That is, unless DCL in injured or something that I just don't know about?

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The thing about this "two world wars and one world cup" song that confuses me is that it elevates winning a world cup to the level of importance of armed conflict, but then ignores that Germany have won four.

 

I need to know the points distribution here.

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5 minutes ago, Fry Crayola said:

The thing about this "two world wars and one world cup" song that confuses me is that it elevates winning a world cup to the level of importance of armed conflict, but then ignores that Germany have won four.

 

I need to know the points distribution here.

 

The song was probably created in the 80s when the infamous and all important combined World War & World Cup metric was 3-2 in England's favour.

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1 hour ago, ChewMagma said:

Seems like some of you leaning into your right as a grown adult to be an unfunny twat about a distraught child are also quite keen to dismiss the wider excesses of the moronic English fanbase. Funny that.

 

IT'S COMING HOME.

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1 hour ago, ChewMagma said:

Seems like some of you leaning into your right as a grown adult to be an unfunny twat about a distraught child are also quite keen to dismiss the wider excesses of the moronic English fanbase. Funny that.

I absolutely abhor the booing of national anthems and the taking of the knee. It, up until I read Southgate's article in the player's tribunal, was utterly souring my support of the national team. I hate everything this country has stood for politically for the last 11 years and find it genuinely difficult to say I am proud to be English. Over the last couple of days I've seen memes about the war and the way our dogshit right wing press has dealt with our victory over Germany and it's only reinforced that dislike of the country I've grown up in. 

 

I think it's quite funny to laugh at the little German girl crying. 

 

She's not crying because someone died or anything like that, she's crying because her football team lost. Like we all did when we were kids and like some of us have now that we're adults. And that's because our team won and her team lost. There's really nothing more to it than that for me. Tribalism in football can be absolutely terrible but it's also a key part of why the game is brilliant. Getting behind a team, supporting through thick and thin, cheering when they win and crying when they lose. And yeah a part of that is giving and taking stick at the right moments. We're not all awful brexiteers or racists. It's just quite funny seeing an opposition supporter cry, no matter what their age is.

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12 minutes ago, BitterToad said:

I absolutely abhor the booing of national anthems and the taking of the knee. It, up until I read Southgate's article in the player's tribunal, was utterly souring my support of the national team. I hate everything this country has stood for politically for the last 11 years and find it genuinely difficult to say I am proud to be English. Over the last couple of days I've seen memes about the war and the way our dogshit right wing press has dealt with our victory over Germany and it's only reinforced that dislike of the country I've grown up in. 

 

I think it's quite funny to laugh at the little German girl crying. 

 

She's not crying because someone died or anything like that, she's crying because her football team lost. Like we all did when we were kids and like some of us have now that we're adults. And that's because our team won and her team lost. There's really nothing more to it than that for me. Tribalism in football can be absolutely terrible but it's also a key part of why the game is brilliant. Getting behind a team, supporting through thick and thin, cheering when they win and crying when they lose. And yeah a part of that is giving and taking stick at the right moments. We're not all awful brexiteers or racists. It's just quite funny seeing an opposition supporter cry, no matter what their age is.

 

I dislike humour when it punches down, but agree to disagree I guess, this aspect of tribal football culture is something I don't chime with and why I follow other sports. As I said, I don't want to harp on about it anymore and nothing you say will convince me it is fine, sorry, but in fairness maybe my own language was a little too judgmental on people itt.

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51 minutes ago, John0 said:

 

The song was probably created in the 80s when the infamous and all important combined World War & World Cup metric was 3-2 in England's favour.

 

Ah, so it's like continuing to sing "one nil to the Eng-er-lund" long after the opposition have rallied back to take the lead.

 

Would seem about the level of intelligence of the people singing the song, I'd say.

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