Jump to content
IGNORED

Euro 2020 - Congrats Italy


disperse and recoagulate
 Share

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

If you Saka, or Grealish - how do you take being left out for him again and again when you're delivering performances at a completely different level.

 

They play in different positions! If we drop Kane for Grealish in the next game it’s going to be even worse than the Sterling Kane Saka/Foden front three!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry for the downer but I was out in society for the England game and didn't prepare myself for what that might be like when the opponents are Germany. Think I've heard enough renditions of "10 German Bombers" to last me a lifetime and there was a few "1 World Cup and 2 World Wars" thrown in as well of course. Along with the utterly classless booing of the German anthem it really made it hard to fully enjoy what was an amazing result. I kind of naively thought maybe we'd outgrown this stuff, but it was yet another reminder of what a nasty, bitter little nation we are in some ways.

 

Over the moon for Southgate and the whole team though! Especially Sterling who gets so much undeserved shit. Gonna watch those highlights a few times today :wub:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, ChewMagma said:

I genuinely think that when that girl popped up on telly if your first reaction wasn't "oh that's a shame, I don't like to see that" rather than rushing to get your shit take about it on to social media then you seriously need to get some perspective about sport and life.

 

Sorry I don't want to bring the thread down and I will leave it there but I found it really disappointing if I'm honest. Took the gloss off.

 

What if she's evil like Veruca Salt?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Boothjan said:

Anyway, it would have been pointless to have taken him off because there was no-one on the bench who can lead the line like he can

 

This argument only works if he's actually leading the line....the kit man could have come off the bench and contributed to the same level.

 

That's not jsut one game now, it's a run of matches - he needs to step up - every other player is.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, John0 said:

Sorry for the downer but I was out in society for the England game and kind didn't prepare myself for what that might be like when the opponents are Germany. Think I've heard enough renditions of "10 German Bombers" to last me a lifetime and there was a few "1 World Cup and 2 World Wars" thrown in as well of course. Along with the utterly classless booing of the German anthem it really made it hard to fully enjoy what was an amazing result. I kind of naively thought maybe we'd outgrown this stuff, but it was yet another reminder of what a nasty, bitter little nation we are in some ways.

 

Over the moon for Southgate and the whole team though! Especially Sterling who gets so much undeserved shit. Gonna watch those highlights a few times today :wub:


Do fans of the other nations boo their oppositions anthem or is it just an English thing? Genuine question!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, John0 said:

Sorry for the downer but I was out in society for the England game and kind didn't prepare myself for what that might be like when the opponents are Germany. Think I've heard enough renditions of "10 German Bombers" to last me a lifetime

 

I was out and about when Germany/Portugal was on and some English lads clocked a few German fans watching in the bar and loudly started that shit up. it's embarrassing, it really is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, spork said:


Do fans of the other nations boo their oppositions anthem or is it just an English thing? Genuine question!

 

I'm sure it happens in places like the Balkans when they play each other, but I bet there's nowhere else that does it pretty much routinely every match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, rgraves said:

 

This argument only works if he's actually leading the line....the kit man could have come off the bench and contributed to the same level.

 

That's not jsut one game now, it's a run of matches - he needs to step up - every other player is.....

 

TBH although he's not been at his best, I do think the criticism of him has been a bit OTT.  Hopefully the goal last night will give him the jolt of confidence he needs and he can improve.

 

4 minutes ago, John0 said:

Sorry for the downer but I was out in society for the England game and kind didn't prepare myself for what that might be like when the opponents are Germany. Think I've heard enough renditions of "10 German Bombers" to last me a lifetime and there was a few "1 World Cup and 2 World Wars" thrown in as well of course. Along with the utterly classless booing of the German anthem it really made it hard to fully enjoy what was an amazing result. I kind of naively thought maybe we'd outgrown this stuff, but it was yet another reminder of what a nasty, bitter little nation we are in some ways.

 

Over the moon for Southgate and the whole team though! Especially Sterling who gets so much undeserved shit. Gonna watch those highlights a few times today :wub:

 

I absolutely detest it when fans boo other nations' anthems.  It's absolute bullshit.  Unfortunately, this pathetic mentality is always going to rear its ugly head whenever we play Germany.  You're right in that it makes us look like absolute dickheads.

 

I watched it in one of my local pubs and it was great until we scored and some twats started singing the Dambusters theme.  FFS - why??!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

If you are Saka, or Grealish - how do you take being left out for him again and again when you're delivering performances at a completely different level.

 

 

And in a completely different position.  :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always find instantly tarring everybody with the same brush for the actions of one or two dickheads to be the way to really win the argument.  I mean, Scottish football fans eh, bunch of drunk sectarian dickheads, amirite?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There’s always going to be a section of arseholes in any support base, and that section can be larger or smaller. I heard Italian fans booing the Austrian anthem at their match; that doesn’t make it right, but it’s not a purely English thing.

 

As far as Kane goes, he’s looked out of sorts, and unfit, but he does need the right service too, and I haven’t seen a lot of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, John0 said:

Sorry for the downer but I was out in society for the England game and kind didn't prepare myself for what that might be like when the opponents are Germany. Think I've heard enough renditions of "10 German Bombers" to last me a lifetime and there was a few "1 World Cup and 2 World Wars" thrown in as well of course. Along with the utterly classless booing of the German anthem it really made it hard to fully enjoy what was an amazing result. I kind of naively thought maybe we'd outgrown this stuff, but it was yet another reminder of what a nasty, bitter little nation we are in some ways.

Classic inferiority complex behaviour

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, feltmonkey said:

 

And in a completely different position.  :rolleyes:

 

So what, he's immune and can just play to the current standard with no fear of being dropped as nobody else can play in his position? Nonsense - Rashford could play there, DCL could play there - Grealish and Saka will be wanting the team to be selected on merit - they'll be saying that when given a chance they are taking it with both hands. Kane, currently, cannot say that.

 

I know he's a decent player, but this is a tournament in which the games are running out - we can't believe we're good enough to carry a player who is so wildly out of form throughout all of it. There has to come a time when the jovial 'he'll kick on now' actually arrives and he starts contributing to the succes that the rest of the team is delivering.

 

I honetly hope that's the end of it, that he shines in the rest of the tournment - but the decision to not even have DCL on the bench as an option isn't going to give Kane the impression he needs to step up or else IMO. He's got that comfy pair of 'captain undroppable' slippers on.

 

As for 'service' - he doesn't need service to close defenders down, challenge for headers, apply the press a bit - it's basic stuff that the fans can see and appreciate. He's not even putting the shift in that others are. He needs to stop this stuff from ringing true...

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Gotters said:

Some of the odd reaction to the win has so much history in it. It's almost like some people think that having a plan first (which he's devised over years and picked teams to build towards this) and then picking the players for it is cheating, they'd rather we went out predictably to a more organised team but started with Sancho, Grealish, Foden, Sterling, Saka and all the other 'exciting' players. I really admire his strength of will to do what he wants and pick the tactics first, it's really only Kane who is being shoehorned in and not adding much, but even that may be vindicated with the goal giving him a boost of confidence now (though of course if he's carrying an injury it won't do much for that). 

 

I'll admit I'm a bit conflicted as in league football I can't stand watching teams that try to throttle a game like England do, but I'm coming to terms with the fact I don't have to watch 38 matches of this and I can put up with it for a few more games while it remains successful.

I think this is a big difference, yes - in that no matter how bad a game, you know there is going to be a result at the end of it regardless, so I think the chance of progressing through the stages softens the blow. 

 

Besides, I thought that was England's best game so far, there was a measure of control and confidence on display (Kane aside) that should see them through to the final now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

So what, he's immune and can just play to the current standard with no fear of being dropped as nobody else can play in his position? Nonsense - Rashford could play there, DCL could play there - Grealish and Saka will be wanting the team to be selected on merit - they'll be saying that when given a chance they are taking it with both hands. Kane, currently, cannot say that.

 

I know he's a decent player, but this is a tournament in which the games are running out - we can't believe we're good enough to carry a player who is so wildly out of form throughout all of it. There has to come a time when the jovial 'he'll kick on now' actually arrives and he starts contributing to the succes that the rest of the team is delivering.

 

I honetly hope that's the end of it, that he shines in the rest of the tournment - but the decision to not even have DCL on the bench as an option isn't going to give Kane the impression he needs to step up or else IMO. He's got that comfy pair of 'captain undroppable' slippers on.

He's won 3 premier league golden boots and a world cup one. 

He's more than decent. Give him a chance and he will likely score. Give him a penalty and he will score. He's better than any other striking option we have. Also to even suggest Rashford as a possible replacement completely undermines your pick on form argument - Rashford has had a pretty bad season (mainly due to injury I think).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, John0 said:

Sorry for the downer but I was out in society for the England game and kind didn't prepare myself for what that might be like when the opponents are Germany. Think I've heard enough renditions of "10 German Bombers" to last me a lifetime and there was a few "1 World Cup and 2 World Wars" thrown in as well of course. Along with the utterly classless booing of the German anthem it really made it hard to fully enjoy what was an amazing result. I kind of naively thought maybe we'd outgrown this stuff, but it was yet another reminder of what a nasty, bitter little nation we are in some ways.

 

Over the moon for Southgate and the whole team though! Especially Sterling who gets so much undeserved shit. Gonna watch those highlights a few times today :wub:

 

How much of this is actually drunken boorishness, though, and how much of it is just leaning into a friendly rivalry, with mates having fun singing stupid songs? Whenever I've been in a pub watching England play Germany (most notably in 2001 for the glorious 5-1 victory), the people I've been with have been leaning into the ridiculousness of it all, not being racist or 'nasty and bitter' in the slightest. I'm sure there are those who do that, but I don't think it's quite as described.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Stoppy2000 said:

Also to even suggest Rashford as a possible replacement completely undermines your pick on form argument - Rashford has had a pretty bad season (mainly due to injury I think).

 

 

Well, Rashford got 21 goals and 15 assists last season, playing, as you say, with two quite bad injuries for most of the season, so I don't know if you can describe that as "pretty bad" but he's a winger, not a striker.  He was definitely "pretty bad" whenever he played right up front.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, feltmonkey said:

 

Dropping Kane to play Saka or Grealish at centre forward would be stupid.  Of course Kane isn't immune to being dropped - I never suggested that.  But your tactical switch of dropping a specialist in that position to play someone who can't play there is a touch unwise.  That's what your original post suggested, so I reacted to that.  Rashford or Calvert-Lewin is a better idea, except that Rashford is not very good as an out and out striker either, and Calvert-Lewin is nowhere near as good a player as Kane.  

 

Kane isn't a "decent player" he's world class.  He's probably the only genuinely world class player we have.  He's not looked himself at all this tournament, but he's still Harry Kane, the most prolific striker in the toughest league in the world, the guy who has scored 35 goals in 58 England appearances.  He is being picked "on merit" because football didn't start two weeks ago when we played Croatia.  If a key player is out of form, the manager has a very difficult decision to make.  Do you drop a player because he misfires in three games?  Or do you trust that he is good enough to turn his form around, and recognise that it would be much more difficult to win this tournament without Kane?  The phrase "form is temporary, class is permenant" is relevant here.  

 

You dismiss the idea that he's not getting any service, and say that he should be running around closing defenders down so that the fans can see that he's trying.  Service is everything to a striker.  You can have the best striker in the world (and arguably we do*) but if you're not getting him the ball he's not going to score.  We haven't played the kind of passes he thrives on.  We haven't been getting into good wide positions and playing the ball across (like we did last night for both goals, and suddenly Kane came alive and scored) we haven't been playing balls through to him, and we haven't even been creating those spaces for him to shoot from range.  Of course, it's not just the job of the players around him to create chances for him - Kane has to make the runs.  I've seen him doing this, but his movement looks weirdly sluggish, there's not his usual sharpness.  He looks really slow.  This is why I wonder if he's injured.  He always plays through injuries, and England aren't going to publicise an injury to their best player and give opponents something to lift them.  If he's playing injured, and England have decided that's the best thing to do, you want the opposition to fear him as much as they would fear a fully fit Harry Kane.  He's also playing a different role to what he sometimes does, he's not dropping deep, he's staying up top and occupying defenders more.  

 

Running around and closing down defenders is not a default tactic, either.  There will be triggers for the team to press.  Often you will allow their centre backs to have the ball because they're not going to hurt you with it.  This gives you extra players to press in midfield when the ball is passed forward, and you can win it back easier.  Kane might be under instructions not to press at maximum intensity.  This plays into the theory that he's not fully fit, of course.  Anyway, that tweet doesn't ring true regardless.  It's a baseless attack designed to appeal to the ignorant.

 

I agree that it was crazy to not have Calvert-Lewin on the bench last night.  I've been frustrated by Kane as well in this tournament - I'm sure I've expressed that several times in this thread.  But lets leave some room for nuance and thought rather than raging.  That's the thing that Southgate has brought to this England team - calm, measured consideration.  It seems to work a lot better than randomly building up some chosen players as heroes and vilifying others on a whim.  If Southgate listened to the loudest fans (and to be fair me) Sterling wouldn't have been starting in the tournament and he's scored most of our goals.

 

*

  Hide contents

I know people are going to tell me that I'm only saying this because he scored yesterday.  "Oh typical England fan, as soon as one of our players does anything they're the best in the world."  Yeah, yeah.  Well, I believed Kane was one of the best players in the world before the tournament, I've been saying it for years.  He's an incredible player.  He's also been shit in this tournament.  I can see that.  It's possible for both things to be true, like it often was for Rooney.

 

 

Can I just say as a very casual football watcher whose ability to read the game is even worse than your average ITV co-commentator, I really appreciate posts like this. It might all be complete bollocks of course ;) but it sounds completely plausible to me! And it really helps to put the performance into context and perspective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.