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The Ticking time bomb in PS4 (and PS3) consoles or Turn Your Expensive Console into an Official Brick!


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29 minutes ago, Stanley said:

All fair points, I can’t pretend otherwise, but none of these issues have affected anyone have they, let’s be honest, this issue is kind of overblown right now. 

 

"It's a fair point that it's irrelevant whether it affects anybody right now. But it's not affecting anybody right now!"

 

:wacko:

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6 minutes ago, Camel said:

 

"It's a fair point that it's irrelevant whether it affects anybody right now. But it's not affecting anybody right now!"

 

:wacko:

I know you just want to win the point or whatever, but my point is that for the vast majority of users this won’t be an issue. The way this news is being reported imo is disproportionate to the actual threat it presents. I mean if I was buying a PS5 right now it would be the least of my worries, maybe that’s just me and everyone else is shitting themselves fearing the day Sony turns off their servers and all their batteries fail. 

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Assuming Sony have plans for a PlayStation 6 at some point and they don't remove the games from the servers for existing customers it doesn't look like it will affect anyone in this lifetime.  But if they remove the games for re-downloading after purchase  I'll be down head office with my PSP Go banging my fists on the counter demanding to speak to Crash Bandicoot.

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Well, I still have a huge pile of PS3 and PS4 games. I therefore will be a bit more than simply miffed if one day they all become worthless in 5-10 years' time due to there being no longer any systems to play them on.

 

And it's absolutely making me doubt I a. might have been backing the wrong horse, and b. I will ever buy a Sony console ever again. If I pay a considerable amount of money for a multimedia device, I don't expect an empty battery to turn my machine into an expensive paper weight.

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I'm genuinely curious as to what duration of service and support people believe they're entitled to when they purchase a product. "This thing I bought so long ago that it's now of legal voting age might stop working at some indeterminate future date and I'm outraged."

 

In general, I believe that companies are treated far too laxly and far too many anti-consumer tactics are permitted - e.g. Sony's appalling customer service stance in the past - but, seriously, for how many decades should they be expected to maintain a product for a one-off payment exactly?

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20 minutes ago, hmm said:

I'm genuinely curious as to what duration of service and support people believe they're entitled to when they purchase a product. "This thing I bought so long ago that it's now of legal voting age might stop working at some indeterminate future date and I'm outraged."

 

In general, I believe that companies are treated far too laxly and far too many anti-consumer tactics are permitted - e.g. Sony's appalling customer service stance in the past - but, seriously, for how many decades should they be expected to maintain a product for a one-off payment exactly?

 

You've either misunderstood the issue or you think it's normal for a console to stop working entirely because a replaceable battery has run out.

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No, I think it's simply not really Sony's responsibility literally decades down the line. It would be nice if, and arguably right that, should they ever decide to switch the servers in question off - which, to reiterate, they apparently have no plans to do - they somehow enable future operation, but I fail to see how they have any obligation to mend their product that long after purchase, any more than you would expect your toaster to be fixed that many years later. It seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship you have with them, that just because you still care apparently so passionately about something they sold 20 years ago that they still should.

 

I see some value in the argument that perhaps some developers have been mistreated or misled by the sudden store closure but I really don't think any PS3 owners have had a raw deal here.

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Thing is, when I buy something I expect it to be "mine". So if I break it, that's fair enough. My fault.  But if it stops working because someone else arbitrarily turns it off then that's not right.

 

However it needs to be clear - a flat battery can be replaced and as soon as you connect to PSN you get all your licences back.  So this is all hypothetical because Sony is surely not turning off PSN any time soon.  However, they have demonstrated their contempt for customers by switching off Driveclub, presumably because they think we shouldn't be playing it any more.  So do we trust them to keep the games and licences on the servers and not randomly wipe them because they can't be arsed? I don't. 

 

But there's precedent for this.  The Philips CDi has a button battery for its CMOS and it's inside a chip for apparently no reason at all. It's a nightmare to replace and the console doesn't know what to do when you power on with a flat battery and just hangs.  So since the battery has an expected life of 20 years all the CDi consoles are turning into bricks as we speak. 

 

 

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Toaster analogy doesn't work. Nobody wants Sony to fix a PS3 that has developed a physical fault. 

 

If your TV had to 'phone home' and the manufacturer of your TV switched off that response in ten years time so your TV inexplicably stopped working, would that be fair enough? Of course not.

 

Dumpster is right (ish) in that this might never be a problem as perhaps Sony will keep running whichever service it is that keeps these authenticated. It's not just "PSN" though so it's definitely not a case of everything is roses as long as Sony don't turn off PSN.

 

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53 minutes ago, hmm said:

I'm genuinely curious as to what duration of service and support people believe they're entitled to when they purchase a product. "This thing I bought so long ago that it's now of legal voting age might stop working at some indeterminate future date and I'm outraged."

 

In general, I believe that companies are treated far too laxly and far too many anti-consumer tactics are permitted - e.g. Sony's appalling customer service stance in the past - but, seriously, for how many decades should they be expected to maintain a product for a one-off payment exactly?

 

I would have thought "it works until it physically breaks" was an entirely fair assumption to make when buying anything.

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2 minutes ago, Camel said:

If your TV had to 'phone home' and the manufacturer of your TV switched off that response in ten years time so your TV inexplicably stopped working, would that be fair enough? Of course not.


A bit like the analogue TV signal?

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At the moment this is a tabloid headline, I’ll be very unhappy if this comes to fruition but at the moment it feels more like a let’s knock Sony off their perch story.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Boozy The Clown said:

638878d2193542c4bfd57ad9b75ea3de.jpeg

 

Change thread title to Xbox has no games.

 

Why does Sony never  comment on negative PR ? 

They have the Defense Force to do it for free.


:lol:

 

There’s nothing quite as funny as watching someone who spends hours of their life defending and promoting a faceless corporation that they irrationally love windmilling at imaginary enemies doing the same thing with a different faceless corporation. 

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1 hour ago, Camel said:

 

No because the analogue TV signal supplied the content.

But you can’t view your content because your hardware isn’t supported any longer so you either have to buy a new one, or find a workaround, and I’d imagine that any enthusiasts still playing PS3 games in ten or twenty years time will find a way. 

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12 minutes ago, Stanley said:

But you can’t view your content because your hardware isn’t supported any longer so you either have to buy a new one, or find a workaround, and I’d imagine that any enthusiasts still playing PS3 games in ten or twenty years time will find a way. 

 

My CRT TV didn't stop working when analogue signals ended. I still use it to play games on. When PSN stores are shut down for PS3/Vita, I won't be able to buy anything again. Which is fine, that service ended. My PS3 not even playing the games I have on disc is bullshit.

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13 minutes ago, Camel said:

 

My CRT TV didn't stop working when analogue signals ended. I still use it to play games on. When PSN stores are shut down for PS3/Vita, I won't be able to buy anything again. Which is fine, that service ended. My PS3 not even playing the games I have on disc is bullshit.

But it hasn’t happened has it? 

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Nope. Hopefully it won't. Seems precarious though. Hopefully they'll patch it. More likely, as you said, someone will come up with a hacky way to circumvent it.

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1 hour ago, matt0 said:

I would have thought "it works until it physically breaks" was an entirely fair assumption to make when buying anything.

 

That feels like a pretty outdated assumption for a lot of things, to be honest. These consoles already won't work in the way that they did because, well, you can't buy games, and some other services have also been discontinued. If you don't like modern, highly connected, service based, frequently updated products then that's obviously your prerogative, and you're hardly alone or unjustified, but that is what they are and you probably shouldn't buy them if you can't accept that.

 

The feature that we're talking about, that requires the 'phoning home', is pretty integral to various of those services, so I think that astonishment that the console wouldn't work without being able to do it is a bit odd. It's arguably a bit of a design flaw in the longer term but I would continue to argue they don't really have any responsibility to design for 20 years down the line. Not to mention that even with disc games these days, there are surely quite a lot that also would be barely usable if you couldn't connect to online services due to the inability to obtain the inevitable enormous day 1 patch.

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Nah. While it might make sense in the context of digital licences with expiry dates, that doesn't extend to a console entirely not working. Sorry, this isn't about grandads getting with the times.

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41 minutes ago, hmm said:

 

That feels like a pretty outdated assumption for a lot of things, to be honest. These consoles already won't work in the way that they did because, well, you can't buy games, and some other services have also been discontinued. If you don't like modern, highly connected, service based, frequently updated products then that's obviously your prerogative, and you're hardly alone or unjustified, but that is what they are and you probably shouldn't buy them if you can't accept that.

 

The feature that we're talking about, that requires the 'phoning home', is pretty integral to various of those services, so I think that astonishment that the console wouldn't work without being able to do it is a bit odd. It's arguably a bit of a design flaw in the longer term but I would continue to argue they don't really have any responsibility to design for 20 years down the line. Not to mention that even with disc games these days, there are surely quite a lot that also would be barely usable if you couldn't connect to online services due to the inability to obtain the inevitable enormous day 1 patch.

 

Except if I never connect my Wii U, 360, 3DS, Xbox One, Switch, desktop or laptop to the internet again, every non-service game already installed on them will work* in its currently patched state until hardware failure and every game that runs or is installable solely from physical media will also still work.

 

That's a big difference.

 

Not everything will work perfectly, and features will be lost (I feel a little sad every time I turn on my Wii U and know that all the Miis on the menu screen aren't real people any more), but machines that were around in the same era or later than the PS3 will still be able to play games.

 

Sony are an outlier in this case.

 

*EDIT - except Game pass stuff...!

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8 hours ago, Wiper said:

 

On the plus side, the CMOS battery is refreshingly easy to remove in the PS4, so that's something. PS3's is a colossal pain in the arse to get to, on the other hand.

I wouldn't call unscrewing the motherboard and having to replace the thermal paste in the process "refreshing easy".

 

I refer to the Wii/WiiU as the way this should be designed:

HuVlIT0_pQWY8i24iQUUEoCkJdQjI_9kuRjGgmaHIB4.jpg.e327b97825146f2d78a76468944f124c.jpg

 

My hot-takes on this topic are:

- Its slightly rubbish if I somehow lose access to digital content but I recognize that it is a potential risk and that platform holders hold all the cards, I'm buying a license and I accept this risk with digital

- There should be absolutely no scenerio even possible that a physical game doesn't work with functional hardware - this is shitty by Sony and they should rectify and ensure a fully "offline" legacy mode exists

- Even though I have a ridiculous number of physical PS4 games I don't think this scenerio has any chance of effecting me for a very very long time, if ever. The PS3 is 15 years old and they are shutting the store. They aren't removing the ability to redownload games. They aren't removing the connection to PSN. Let's say the do remove these abilities from a PS3 (I dont think they will) what would be lowest realistic estimate they might do this - possibly around 5 years time. PS5 can play all PS4 games so in reality then, that's something that could maybe slightly possibly happen that I can't play these games in 20 years time. It's really shitty and shouldn't be a thing, but, it's not something I think I'll worry over.

 

EDIT: I see that @mdn2 has posted that this is not an issue on PS4 on PS5. Disaster averted then (unless they patch this of course)

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13 minutes ago, MW_Jimmy said:

I wouldn't call unscrewing the motherboard and having to replace the thermal paste in the process "refreshing easy".

 

My standard for "easy battery removal" in consoles basically comes down to "battery is in a generic holder, rather than directly soldered or mounted in a bespoke solution". The PS3 Slim remains my favourite, where not only is the battery a colossal pain in the arse to get to, it looks like it's in a generic holder, but if you try to pull it out without using a combination of a spudger and firmly restraining said holder against the motherboard, the entire holder will tear away and destroy your motherboard.

 

Smart design.

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I think our definition of "easy replacement" vary, although knowing it's like that on a PS3 I'd rank that as impossible.

 

A bit of a side note - but I look forward to the future discussion on how Sony has soldered it's internal SSD onto the PS5 motherboard - another part of the console that definitely has a limited life and will potentially require replacement (Series S/X hasn't soldered it so 2-0 Microsoft!)

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2 minutes ago, MW_Jimmy said:

I think our definition of "easy replacement" vary, although knowing it's like that on a PS3 I'd rank that as impossible.

 

A bit of a side note - but I look forward to the future discussion on how Sony has soldered it's internal SSD onto the PS5 motherboard - another part of the console that definitely has a limited life and will potentially require replacement (Series S/X hasn't soldered it so 2-0 Microsoft!)

 

Yeah, soldered on components are the worst, giving users a whole extra avenue by which to break their console should they need to replace something.

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1 hour ago, Stanley said:

But it hasn’t happened has it? 

 

People were saying the exact same thing when the rumours started about the PSP/VITA/PS3 stores being terminated.

 

This is Sony, and it will probably happen sooner rather than later as most PS3s are from no later than 2014 and batteries typically don't last very long.

 

I think it'll be really shitty if Sony doesn't come up with a final update negating that damn battery, but then this is Sony, and as has been amply pointed out and proven in the past, they aren't all that concerned about their PS customers.

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