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3 minutes ago, Dudley said:

Not really, no-one new can play it. Ever.  If you don't own it, there's no way to play it.  That to me is lost.

 

Whereas even with, oh I don't know, Unirally on SNES, a game that was available for about 14 seconds, you can find a physical copy, there are multiple ways to acquire and play a copy on real hardware, legally or otherwise.

 

There is NO legal or illegal way to play FH3 Hot Wheels for Xbox One if you didn't buy it before late last year.  Yes those of us with it can play it.

 

I don't understand this post, this Forza Horizon 3 DLC is lost because new people can't buy a copy, but Unirally isn't because new people can't buy a copy.

 

You say there's no way to acquire a real copy of this DLC except a buy a copy from someone who has one, unlike Unirally, where there's no way to acquire a copy except buy a copy from someone who has one. Like, what am I missing here, each of these lines is contradicting its own point - it's exactly the same?

 

And some of your points are just wrong, you can still acquire it legally by redeeming codes on the store, and codes are still available online.

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Is it genuinely impossible to play a pirated copy of Forza Horizon 3 with the DLC? Genuine question. I would assume the PC version has been cracked at some point, but maybe Microsoft are a bit better at this than they used to be.

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It's very simple.

 

Ignoring a couple of sites illegally (and it is illegal) selling some left over old codes which will be very temportary. If you do not buy FH3 HW before last year you cannot play it, ever, there is no means illegal or otherwise to do so.

 

There are plenty of ways to play unirally, even if you'd never heard of it before this morning.

 

FH3 HW is to all intents and purposes, lost.

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Just now, K said:

Is it genuinely impossible to play a pirated copy of Forza Horizon 3 with the DLC? Genuine question. I would assume the PC version has been cracked at some point, but maybe Microsoft are a bit better at this than they used to be.

 

I did specify xbox one for that reason as I didn't know but that at least is possible.

 

There will of course be Playstation examples that never got a PC release.   It's why the GOG release of Horizon on PC was so important.

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2 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

I did specify xbox one for that reason as I didn't know but that at least is possible.

 

There will of course be Playstation examples that never got a PC release.   It's why the GOG release of Horizon on PC was so important.

 

I don't really see how the Hot Wheels DLC is lost, then, or how it differs significantly from Unirally. You can't buy either new, but you can play existing copies, and you can illegally download a cracked/dumped copy of either, if that's your bag. 

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12 minutes ago, Dudley said:

It's very simple.

 

Ignoring a couple of sites illegally (and it is illegal) selling some left over old codes which will be very temportary. If you do not buy FH3 HW before last year you cannot play it, ever, there is no means illegal or otherwise to do so.

 

There are plenty of ways to play unirally, even if you'd never heard of it before this morning.

 

FH3 HW is to all intents and purposes, lost.

 

How's that illegal?

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20 minutes ago, Dudley said:

It's very simple.

 

Ignoring a couple of sites illegally (and it is illegal) selling some left over old codes which will be very temportary. If you do not buy FH3 HW before last year you cannot play it, ever, there is no means illegal or otherwise to do so.

 

There are plenty of ways to play unirally, even if you'd never heard of it before this morning.

 

FH3 HW is to all intents and purposes, lost.

 

The problem is this is wrong, and also a lie due to reasons I pointed out. You don't get to just ignore the contradictions and restate an incorrect position.

 

Key selling isn't illegal, keys are officially supported on the Microsoft Store page, do you think you're hacking into the Gibson to redeem them? It's no different to buying second hand games, which is your solution as to how Unirally was not legally "lost".

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I think you’re all right to some extent but are drawing a line in different places. There is a spectrum to all these things.
 

When games became digitally distributed, our standard for a game being “available” shifted dramatically, so a game that only exists as a limited number of physical objects is now noticeably difficult to obtain and precarious in its existence by comparison.

 

But a game that was only available digitally, and now isn’t available to purchase anywhere, and which can only officially be played by a specific list of user accounts on specific services, has its own fragility and obscurity.

 

And then you have games that are legitimately easy to obtain physically or digitally, but the hardware platform is defunct and steadily decaying away.

 

How morally or ethically reasonable it is to breach copyright on a game is also on a continuum, with the various kinds of availability clearly contributing to it.


The reason I keep name dropping PKGj is that, boy, even getting games by copyright infringement on the Vita is built on some really precarious foundations.

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On 15/04/2021 at 09:53, K said:

 

I don't really see how the Hot Wheels DLC is lost, then, or how it differs significantly from Unirally. You can't buy either new, but you can play existing copies, and you can illegally download a cracked/dumped copy of either, if that's your bag. 

 

For fucks sake.

 

I buy an Xbox One new from Tesco not owning Forza Horizon 3 HW before.  There are no, zero ways of playing the game on that device legal or illegal once the last stock of unlicenced store codes disappears in a short but unstated time from now.  There are no Xbox one emulators, there are no xbox one clone machines, the Xbox one is, to my knowledge, not reliably hacked to play unlicenced games even if you could download HW illegally somewhere, what are you going to do with that cracked copy?

 

I get a SNES that's never played unirally, I can get a cart and play it on it.  I have a PC I can download a SNES emulator and a rom and play it.  I can buy a SNES mini, hack it and put it on there, I can buy an RPi and put it on there, I can get an everdrive and play it on a SNES, Super NT or any number of other machines.

 

The simple difference is, if I'd never heard of either game before today I can be playing unirally in 5 minutes from now.  There is, unless something changes, no way to ever play FH3 HW ever again.

 

So to all intents, it's lost.  Yes there are "existing copies" but that is also true of literally every other game that was lost and later found.  It's probably true of several we still think of as lost.

 

On 15/04/2021 at 10:02, gossi the dog said:

 

How's that illegal?

 

On 15/04/2021 at 10:04, RubberJohnny said:

 

The problem is this is wrong, and also a lie due to reasons I pointed out. You don't get to just ignore the contradictions and restate an incorrect position.

 

The licencing expired on the game.  Selling it new is unlicenced and thus illegal, regardless of whether the codes work. It is a reason to not consider the game lost until those codes expired, get pulled from sale or simply run out yes.

 

EDIT : And the link for codes is G2A who are known to resell stolen keys.

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5 hours ago, Alex W. said:

But a game that was only available digitally, and now isn’t available to purchase anywhere, and which can only officially be played by a specific list of user accounts on specific services, has its own fragility and obscurity.

 

And then you have games that are legitimately easy to obtain physically or digitally, but the hardware platform is defunct and steadily decaying away.

 

And FH3 HW is a victim of two of these on Xbox One.  The only machines that can play it are Xbox Ones, which they're stopping making.

 

The Xbox one isn't hacked to run pirated titles.

 

And the game isn't available for new purchase.

 

So it's lost in the sense no-one new can play it and copies die every day with no mechanism to make more like there is with, say, SNES roms.

 

There may ultimately be xbox one emulators that can play it so long as at least 1 copy that can be retrieved from an Xbox survives. But right now, if you're new to it, you can't have it by any means.

 

It's not a complete loss, there was a very similar PC release at least, which there isn't for other games.  And FH3 Prime is on a disc (albeit needing very heavy patching to be the game anyone would recognise).

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Nah, this is still a load of crap.

 

For one legal issues like licensing affect physical and digital identically. They prevent resale but they don't prevent support - there are plenty of games that are no longer sold but are still supported through backwards compatibility and available to download if you own them.

 

1 hour ago, Dudley said:

The simple difference is, if I'd never heard of either game before today I can be playing unirally in 5 minutes from now. 

 

You can play it buy buying an Xbox and a code, you know, an existing copy, just like your Unirally example. Also it must be some pretty fucking quick delivery service to get that game and console to you in five minutes.

 

1 hour ago, Dudley said:

The licencing expired on the game. Selling it new is unlicenced and thus illegal, regardless of whether the codes work. It is a reason to not consider the game lost until those codes expired, get pulled from sale or simply run out yes.

 

They're not selling it new, they can be second-hand codes from people who bought and didn't redeem. That's legal and officially supported, which undermines your point.

 

1 hour ago, Dudley said:

So to all intents, it's lost.

 

It's not though. I can still play it. You can still play it if you want to.

 

This is just you creating an arbitrary definition of lost which doesn't mean lost and just means "doesn't have new copies for sale at the moment", and then not even applying it consistently.

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Yeah you're just being obtuse now.

 

- The 5 minutes was downloading an emulator and rom, not getting a console and game delivered.

- There is one single source for buying FH3 HR, a site notorious for selling stolen codes that have frequently been disabled. A site that literally offers you the chance to pay extra to insure yourself against the fact the same site is selling you a product that doesn't work.

 

When G2A no longer have those codes you CANNOT play FH3 HR unless you previously owned it.

 

It's not especially arbitrary to say a game that you cannot acquire and play by legal or illegal means is effectively lost.  If it'll stop you being tedious I'll accept G2A as a source for now, although I'm fucked if I would trust them and in any case that'll be gone very quickly.

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8 minutes ago, Dudley said:

Yeah you're just being obtuse now.

 

- There is one single source for buying FH3 HR, a site notorious for selling stolen codes that have frequently been disabled. A site that literally offers you the chance to pay extra to insure yourself against the fact the same site is selling you a product that doesn't work.

 

No there isn't, that was just the first result I found, not the only one available.

 

Honestly that you keep coming back to "piracy is teh superior" makes me think this just going to be one of those bad-pointless-discussions-with-pirates that Alex W was talking about where you're trying to create your own justification about being wronged or whatever, and that's why you're having to ignore all the holes poked in your argument.

 

There's basically no point continuing those conversations, so if that was your goal, I'd prefer you just say so so we can end the exchange without any more effort.

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4 hours ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

No there isn't, that was just the first result I found, not the only one available.

 

Honestly that you keep coming back to "piracy is teh superior" makes me think this just going to be one of those bad-pointless-discussions-with-pirates that Alex W was talking about where you're trying to create your own justification about being wronged or whatever, and that's why you're having to ignore all the holes poked in your argument.

 

There's basically no point continuing those conversations, so if that was your goal, I'd prefer you just say so so we can end the exchange without any more effort.

 

If you think I have even tenuously said anything that while 12 pints deep could be interpreted as "Piracy is teh superior" then I don't even know what to say.

 

You have poked exactly 1 hole in my argument, that are are dregs of codes for a deleted game available from questionable retailers, when those run out tell me how someone new to the game can play Forza Horizon 3 Hot Wheels on Xbox one.  And then when that is "0 ways" tell me why that doesn't count as "lost" to them.

 

Spoiler

I mean there is exactly 1 way I can think of.  Buy the entire xbox live account of someone who owns it and hope MS don't notice. Feels excessive.

 

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4 hours ago, Down by Law said:

After Burner Climax and Outrun Online Arcade . Wish i'd have bought them before they delisted. 

 

It's ok,  you can visit the house of every xbox owner in the world until you find one with it still installed so really it was never delisted.

 

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11 hours ago, Dudley said:

You have poked exactly 1 hole in my argument, that are are dregs of codes for a deleted game available from questionable retailers, when those run out tell me how someone new to the game can play Forza Horizon 3 Hot Wheels on Xbox one.  And then when that is "0 ways" tell me why that doesn't count as "lost" to them.

 

I mean right here you're pretending as if we clarified they aren't all shady retailers, you're pretending as if your arguments weren't doubly true for Unirally and so on. It's just so forthright with such a weak argument, with all these bad faith attacks thrown in that it feels motivated by some agenda behind it.

 

Was it because I said Microsoft was doing backward compatibility well and Sony wasn't? Is this some misplaced fanboy thing where you were offended by that and had to try and come up with a Microsoft example?

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So you're ignoring your first false accusation, the rest is just completely disconnected from the reality of any post I've made.

 

But hey why not for a last try.  They are NOT equally true for unirally. I can think of at least 10 ways to play the SNES version of unirally if you'd never heard of the game before today.

 

If you had never heard of Forza Horizon 3 Hot Wheels on xbox one before today there are zero legal ways to play it and once some dodgy keys run out, 0 illegal ways to play it. This will be true of any delisted Xbox one exclusive.

 

"bad faith attacks". I've made none except pointing you were being obtuse, meanwhile you've accused me of being a piracy advocate and laughably some kind of playstation fanboy.  Given I have a Game Pass subscription and literally every xbox released (Except the unobtainable Series) within 5m of me right now that's just hilarious.

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20 hours ago, Dudley said:

 

For fucks sake.

 

I buy an Xbox One new from Tesco not owning Forza Horizon 3 HW before.  There are no, zero ways of playing the game on that decide legal or illegal once the last stock of unlicenced store codes disappears in a short but unstated time from now.  There are no Xbox one emulators, there are no xbox one clone machines, the Xbox one is, to my knowledge, not reliably hacked to play unlicenced games even if you could download HW illegally somewhere, what are you going to do with that cracked copy?

 

I get a SNES that's never played unirally, I can get a cart and play it on it.  I have a PC I can download a SNES emulator and a rom and play it.  I can buy a SNES mini, hack it and put it on there, I can buy an RPi and put it on there, I can get an everdrive and play it on a SNES, Super NT or any number of other machines.

 

The simple difference is, if I'd never heard of either game before today I can be playing unirally in 5 minutes from now.  There is, unless something changes, no way to ever play FH3 HW ever again.

 

So to all intents, it's lost.  Yes there are "existing copies" but that is also true of literally every other game that was lost and later found.  It's probably true of several we still think of as lost.

 

It seems like a very artificial distinction to focus on Xbox One FH3, given that the PC version is almost certainly available in cracked form and is identical to the Xbox One version. The game doesn't seem to me to be lost in any meaningful sense if you can play the exact same game on a different platform, albeit illegally. So yes, you can't buy a new copy of the DLC and play it now, but you could argue that this SNES game is also lost if you arbitrarily discount playing it on a PC, or buying leftover second hand copies, and only count buying new copies at retail for some reason.

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1 hour ago, Dudley said:

So you're ignoring your first false accusation

 

What? You didn't ask me to address anything.

 

Quote

If you had never heard of Forza Horizon 3 Hot Wheels on xbox one before today there are zero legal ways to play it

 

Lie.

 

Quote

and once some dodgy keys run out

 

Lie about the keys being dodgy when they're officially supported and legal.
 

Quote

, 0 illegal ways to play it.

 

Lie.

 

Quote

This will be true of any delisted Xbox one exclusive.

 

The game you're using as an example isn't even an exclusive!

 

Quote

"bad faith attacks". I've made none except pointing you were being obtuse, meanwhile you've accused me of being a piracy advocate and laughably some kind of playstation fanboy.  Given I have a Game Pass subscription and literally every xbox released (Except the unobtainable Series) within 5m of me right now that's just hilarious.

 

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, because it's really weird for someone to repeatedly lie about stuff like this after they've been repeatedly corrected. Like, is there just some fundamental inability to back down and admit you're wrong, or what? I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt for your weird behaviour by coming up with at least more reasonable explanations for it, and you keep shooting them down and saying "no I'm being dishonest over this, deliberately". It's a hell of a meltdown, either way.

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This is really boring now.

 

Is Dudley's point simply that with physical games you will still be able to buy them (second hand) at any point in the future, but with (some) digital games you won't be able to?

 

There's nothing to say we won't have hacked XBox Ones in the future and will be able to stick this DLC on them, so I think the bits about emulators is a red herring.

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3 hours ago, K said:

 

It seems like a very artificial distinction to focus on Xbox One FH3, given that the PC version is almost certainly available in cracked form and is identical to the Xbox One version. The game doesn't seem to me to be lost in any meaningful sense if you can play the exact same game on a different platform, albeit illegally. So yes, you can't buy a new copy of the DLC and play it now, but you could argue that this SNES game is also lost if you arbitrarily discount playing it on a PC, or buying leftover second hand copies, and only count buying new copies at retail for some reason.

 

Pick another game that's on Xbox One and not PC and delisted then it was the one in play.

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1 hour ago, Camel said:

This is really boring now.

 

Is Dudley's point simply that with physical games you will still be able to buy them (second hand) at any point in the future, but with (some) digital games you won't be able to?

 

There's nothing to say we won't have hacked XBox Ones in the future and will be able to stick this DLC on them, so I think the bits about emulators is a red herring.

 

I'm saying that the functional difference between a game where no known copies exist and a game that can't be played by legal or illegal means is, to most people nil. Physical doesn't help you in the PS4/Xbox one generation and beyond because crap all of what ultimately becomes the game is ever even on the disc.  There is one non-legal way to pick up said game now making it not the best example but I'm sure it wouldn't take long to find another on a (so-far) unhacked, unemulated machine. It may happen of course, it may not but plenty of games went lost and were then found.

 

Then RubberJohnny started making up a bunch of shit I never said into wild accusations of fanboyism and piracy cheerleading which I presume the post I'm not bothering to read does not retract.

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34 minutes ago, Dudley said:

Pick another game that's on Xbox One and not PC and delisted then it was the one in play.

 

It was your example!

 

31 minutes ago, Dudley said:

Then RubberJohnny started making up a bunch of shit I never said into wild accusations of fanboyism and piracy cheerleading which I presume the post I'm not bothering to read does not retract.

 

It was your example!

 

You could have just said "OK, bad example, what about this..." rather than triple down on lying for several pages.

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Here's a thought.  You own a digital only console.  There's a publisher selling a game on the digital store which is the only way to buy that game. Then the store closes.  The customer loses the ability to buy the game but the publisher loses the ability to sell it as well.  The product doesn't exist any more as a commercial entity. There's no way for the publisher to sell you the game, and even if they could there's no way you could buy it.  The whole argument against piracy is that sales are lost, money isn't spent etc. etc.  But in the world of digital only consoles, if they close the store your console is dead. It literally makes no difference if you pirate it or not because the publisher can't sell you the game anyway.  The game literally has no value because the only store that could possibly sell it is closed.  The console is dead. It's gone, it's over.  So pirate away, because it affects nothing. 

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That's something that happened to a lot of people who created games for the Xbox Live Indie Games channel. In many cases, the developers released their work later on other platforms, but there are plenty that did not and for reasons that weren't down to a simple, free choice. Some would have left the industry. Some would find they have no time - or money, if necessary - to port a game elsewhere, and even a PC version requires additional work. Others might not have kept their source code, the game released and forgotten with no method of recovery. And once Microsoft closed that store, those games were locked away forever.

 

I think if you asked any one of those developers, they'd be more than happy for you to just play their work, however you manage to do so. I'd be surprised if there was a single naysayer.

 

But if there was one - a developer who said they'd rather you didn't pirate their work for reasons that aren't about commercial value or the mythical lost sale. Would you consider it your right to continue to do so?

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24 minutes ago, dumpster said:

But in the world of digital only consoles, if they close the store your console is dead.

 

Ah, this again. This doesn't apply to the PS3 and Vita. I mean, it could at some point. I think it happened to the Wii. But your digital console isn't dead when they close these stores.

 

As Fry Crayola says, the games in question could get released on other platforms.

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  • dumpster changed the title to You may NOT pirate Psp, Vita and PS3

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