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The Falcon and The Winter Soldier - on Disney+ from 19 March


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4 minutes ago, Pelekophoros said:

I'm still not sure why Zemo was broken out, why he had a mask and why the Wakandan's wanted him. Hey ho. I like him as a character.

 

The Wakandans want him for the same reason they wanted him in Civil War, I think - because he killed their king in the United Nations bombing that was originally pinned on Bucky.

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Just now, Garwoofoo said:

 

The Wakandans want him for the same reason they wanted him in Civil War, I think - because he killed their king in the United Nations bombing that was originally pinned on Bucky.

Ha! Yeah, that'll make sense.

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1 hour ago, Uncle Mike said:

The series so far have been well-constructed to mean only minor references would be needed.

 

The end of this is going to have Zemo in a different jail, Falcon deciding to be Captain America, Bucky working through his guilt and bad-Cap presumably defeated. That leaves us more or less exactly where we were at the start. If you haven't seen it, you can do the next movie without really missing anything. It's the same for Wandavision. Vision's dead, Wanda's alone. You can reintroduce Rambeau at some point working through her new powers as resulting from "the Westview incident" and everyone gets on with their day. I guess the big change there that "needs" some explanation will be her new magic book, but there's not a lot of actual change (I think by design) that needs to be covered off.


Yeah I guess this is true, although I’m guessing undercoated but not painted yet vision might show up at some point? Though even then a single line about him being rebuilt explains it.

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1 hour ago, Pelekophoros said:

Ha! Yeah, that'll make sense.

 

What doesn't make sense is that Black Panther already decided not to take revenge and handed him in. I guess now he broke out of Prison the Wakandans see it as their right to hold him instead if other nations can't be trusted to keep him guarded.

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3 hours ago, PeteJ said:

Personally although I've had multiple issues with this series, Walker isn't one of them. I think they've handled his character really well, and as said previously he by far the best thing about it. 

Yeah totally, he’s a surprisingly good character. 

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7 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

 

What doesn't make sense is that Black Panther already decided not to take revenge and handed him in. I guess now he broke out of Prison the Wakandans see it as their right to hold him instead if other nations can't be trusted to keep him guarded.

I get that the Dora would want to recapture him, given their "failing" to protect the King from him. It doesn't make sense though that they made a point of saying they were putting him in The Raft, which afaik, is not Wakandan.  It's all really just to set up the Thunderbolts though, so I'm all in, baby!

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It feels like a bit of a shame that they've reverted back to the grounded setting of the early MCU films for this. They obviously needed to start the film series there, but they've now done all the necessary work to get the audience and the characters to completely accept magic stones, witches, wizards and aliens. I'm finding it a bit boring going back to US military hardware and strength-altering serums, and it would've been fun to see these two fairly straight-laced characters having to deal with all the weird shit.

 

(Apologies if this is a lukewarm take, I've recently caught up with the show and have skimmed the thread!)

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17 minutes ago, Glasgowchivas said:

I get that the Dora would want to recapture him, given their "failing" to protect the King from him. It doesn't make sense though that they made a point of saying they were putting him in The Raft, which afaik, is not Wakandan.  It's all really just to set up the Thunderbolts though, so I'm all in, baby!

Oh I completely forgot what the Raft was. That was were the heroes were all sent to in Civil War after the airport fight wasn't it.

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4 hours ago, PeteJ said:

Personally although I've had multiple issues with this series, Walker isn't one of them. I think they've handled his character really well, and as said previously he by far the best thing about it. 


Walker’s the best thing in the show, although his fall from grace seemed convoluted. A combination of constantly being pwned by...everyone..seeing his mate get killed, taking the serum and being discarded by the State.

 

Thought it was weird they were sending a successful but regular soldier out on Cap type missions with nothing more than the magic shield. Surely the whole point of Captain America was that he was a super-soldier?

 

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23 minutes ago, PK said:

It feels like a bit of a shame that they've reverted back to the grounded setting of the early MCU films for this. They obviously needed to start the film series there, but they've now done all the necessary work to get the audience and the characters to completely accept magic stones, witches, wizards and aliens. I'm finding it a bit boring going back to US military hardware and strength-altering serums, and it would've been fun to see these two fairly straight-laced characters having to deal with all the weird shit.

 

(Apologies if this is a lukewarm take, I've recently caught up with the show and have skimmed the thread!)

 

One of the strengths of the MCU is that it can support both, without making either look ridiculous. The upcoming Black Widow movie looks very much in this sort of vein too.

 

If you want the more fantastical side of the MCU then Wandavision should give you what you're looking for. The upcoming Loki series looks like it ties into the multiverse concept that's featured in several movies, too.

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2 minutes ago, Garwoofoo said:

 

One of the strengths of the MCU is that it can support both, without making either look ridiculous. The upcoming Black Widow movie looks very much in this sort of vein too.

 

If you want the more fantastical side of the MCU then Wandavision should give you what you're looking for. The upcoming Loki series looks like it ties into the multiverse concept that's featured in several movies, too.


Marvel are a bit like Warburtons, they have a loaf for all different tastes.

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29 minutes ago, womblingfree said:

Surely the whole point of Captain America was that he was a super-soldier?

 

The point of the Captain America movies was that he was special before the serum, and that's what made him special. Which this series is taking its time in showing you - these bunch of terrorists that you're supposed to sympathise with also have low regard for innocent life, this trained solider really quickly fell off the rails. Cap was special, and Falcon needs to believe he is able to at least try to live up to that ideal, even without serum.

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28 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

 

The point of the Captain America movies was that he was special before the serum, and that's what made him special. Which this series is taking its time in showing you - these bunch of terrorists that you're supposed to sympathise with also have low regard for innocent life, this trained solider really quickly fell off the rails. Cap was special, and Falcon needs to believe he is able to at least try to live up to that ideal, even without serum.


Sure, but they wouldn’t have sent Cap on all those mission impossibles if he was just a great guy. Being able to do super-punching and super-jumping made him Cap, as well as being a great guy. Brave, frail and scrawny Steve Rogers would have lasted about five minutes.

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1 hour ago, Harsin said:

Thor: The Dark World

 

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I raise you Iron Man 3:

image.thumb.png.ca072f211c99a94c9e001025049829d9.png

 

Is it weird that I now want to do the whole MCU as loaves of bread? ;)

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They made a good batch of serum in the 90s, according to Civil War. I wonder what happened to the scientist this time? I guess we're supposed to assume Howard Stake made them.

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1 hour ago, womblingfree said:

Sure, but they wouldn’t have sent Cap on all those mission impossibles if he was just a great guy. Being able to do super-punching and super-jumping made him Cap, as well as being a great guy.

 

 

Well, yes and no. The point of the first film especially was that they could give the serum to anyone. Anyone could be made into a super soldier. That was the Army's plan, in fact. It's the doctor that doesn't want to do that. He wants to find someone capable of doing that without becoming something corrupt in doing so.

 

Steve's specialness isn't the serum, it's his character. That's what this series, it seems to me, is trying to double down on telling you. It's the old Lincoln quote (I think) of ""Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." Which is why it'll end being being Falcon (no super powers) not Bucky (with enhanced abilities) that takes up the mantle.

 

I don't know if it's going to complete the thought, but it sort of feels like they're going to draw a throughline from the speech the Doctor gives Rogers in the first movie about how a weak man knows compassion and apply it to a Black man also understanding what it means to be powerless.

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2 hours ago, Steve McQueef said:

The last time they gave a soldier some of the old serum, it didn't go particularly well. 


Wasn’t the plan to have an army of super soldiers but Rogers was the only success? Apart from the multitudes of unofficial ones.

 

Walker as a non-super hero PR mascot makes sense, but sending the mascot up against hordes of actual super soldiers with his mate not so much.

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A thread I saw a few days ago:

 

 

The first few tweets are about the stupid decisions the character of Karli has made, but then the later section is about how the series has presented us with four characters who each retain different aspects of the original Cap:

 

Quote

She is similar to Walker in that she's a subversion of the Captain America expectation. She has charisma, says things people want to hear, but has no tactical or strategic ability. 

 

The thing about this series is that they've presented us with 4 characters who have similarities to Steve Rogers: Sam Wilson, Bucky Barnes, John Walker, and Karli Morganthal.

 

Bucky has the power and experience.

John has the look.

Karli has the charisma.

 

And the point very simply seems to be to show various reasons all of these people are unsuitable except for Sam.

With John and Karli we see how what they lack makes them dangerous.

 

Karli lacks both training and wisdom.
John lacks both humility and wisdom.

Which is why the show goes out of the way to show that Sam is able to read and understand people (wisdom), carefully considers his actions (wisdom), reluctant to take on the role (humility), and to show both that he is highly, successfully trained AND still willing to put in the work to get better. 

 

(Not sure I agree with that "Karli has the charisma" line!)

 

 

Quote

You can even see what John and Karli lack in the ep 4 scenes they have with their seconds. They need Lemar and Nico respectively for emotional support, and to tell them they are doing the right thing.

Steve never needed that from Sam or Bucky, he had an internal compass. 

 

Which is where we get to why Bucky isn't suitable, because he has absolutely no trust for his internal moral compass since he became the Winter Soldier and relies on others for direction.

But Sam doesn't need direction from Bucky, or to be told he's doing the right thing. 

 

Sure, he SEEKS understanding from others (Isaiah, Sarah), but he doesn't seek validation from them. Just information to inform his own decision.

He isn't reliant on Bucky the way John was on Lemar. 

 

In the end, out of a series with well... EIGHT freaking confirmed super-soldiers... Sam the unserumed is the only one who can actually handle the sort of problems Steve could.

And they show a bunch of different reasons why in each scene with Karli and John... 

 

But it really boils down to the realization that Sam is better than a super-soldier.

He's a super-hero. 

 

 

In the replies, someone else compared it to what DC did in the aftermath of the Death of Superman: providing a set of four possible replacements for a superhero, each filling a different aspect of the original hero, but each falling short in different ways: "Oh my god, FATWS Reign of the Supermaned Captain America. Bucky is Eradicator, Walker is Cyborg Superman, Karli is Superboy, Sam is Steel."

 

(However, '90s Superboy stuck around in the DC universe long after that story was over. Will Karli have a place in the MCU beyond this series?)

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10 hours ago, Broker said:


I know it would probably work for some people, but I don’t think scenes of him being a “heroic” US soldier in the Middle East would have necessarily made him seem less evil to me. 

 

I don't necessarily think this needed to be set up in a middle east flash back or anything, they could have has him being heroic in the post thanos world or even having it in the first fight on the trucks - have the sequence involve him putting himself in harms way to protect his mate. Maybe this happened, but if it was more prominent, when they talked about his past heroic deeds they would have felt more real because we'ed have seen that motivation in his fighting style - protect over attack.

 

This also would have made his mate's death have more of an impact as we would have seen that Walker felt protecting his comrades is part of his personality so the failure to do so would way heavily on him.

 

It's a slight tweak, but would have made me believe in the rhetoric for Walker more.

 

 

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Yeah, but a guy who is a dick but also a bit of a hero, who becomes a dick through the events of this series is more interesting than a guy who is just a bit of a dick.

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3 hours ago, Thor said:

Is it weird that I now want to do the whole MCU as loaves of bread? ;)


MCU Bakery

 

Captain America - Mighty White

Iron Man - Overpriced red velvet cake

Black Widow - Blinis

Black Panther - Injera

Hulk - Forgot to add yeast

Dr Strange - Space cake

Ant Man - A crouton

Captain Marvel - A Viennese whirl

Guardians of the Galaxy - Assorted donuts

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50 minutes ago, womblingfree said:


MCU Bakery

 

Captain America - Mighty White

Iron Man - Overpriced red velvet cake

Black Widow - Blinis

Black Panther - Injera

Hulk - Forgot to add yeast

Dr Strange - Space cake

Ant Man - A crouton

Captain Marvel - A Viennese whirl

Guardians of the Galaxy - Assorted donuts

 

Hulk is challah.

 

challah.thumb.png.2292291fa220e92a30515da26f1fec9c.png

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3 hours ago, Delargey said:

 

I don't necessarily think this needed to be set up in a middle east flash back or anything, they could have has him being heroic in the post thanos world or even having it in the first fight on the trucks - have the sequence involve him putting himself in harms way to protect his mate. Maybe this happened, but if it was more prominent, when they talked about his past heroic deeds they would have felt more real because we'ed have seen that motivation in his fighting style - protect over attack.

 

This also would have made his mate's death have more of an impact as we would have seen that Walker felt protecting his comrades is part of his personality so the failure to do so would way heavily on him.

 

It's a slight tweak, but would have made me believe in the rhetoric for Walker more.

 

 

The whole was covered in a conversation with his sidekick: he got the medals because he had no other choice of action, and they needed to laud someone in the aftermath of the fuckup.

 

the no other choice being key.

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