Jump to content
IGNORED

Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - #Michael Messy


T Pot
 Share

Recommended Posts

F1 is marketing at the end of the day. Merc should publicly act similarly to how Lew has. It's not a good look for the brand to look like a sore loser even if they've been wronged.

 

Behind the scenes in Paris they will be exerting every last drop of pressure they can on the FIA to get something out of this. Probably their way for the engine regs in 26.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think they won’t go through with it but I think they should. Masi created a new rule out of thin air that they couldn’t anticipate and went against his win reasoning at the Eiffel GP in 2020. The 15.3 interpretation as being carte blanch to go whatever he wants feels like an optimistic interpretation of the rules when what happens under the safety car is clearly defined in the regulations. Marko is already complaining about them being bad losers but I think they should nail the FIA to wall over this. Masi won’t go anywhere, for him to do so would he admitting he was wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mercedes should pursue it to the end and the result should be overturned with the prior lap standings being reinstated, Lewis had the championship stolen from him by the officials deciding to pull rank on the rulebook.

However, I doubt they will push it and would rather prove the FIA wrong enough that the FIA are forced to make concessions that benefit Mercedes in the long run, they will be around the sport longer than Lewis will and stand to gain more by pushing things, behind the scenes, in their favour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The result is the result and it's not changing imo. Even if Merc threaten to pull out the team and all of their customer engine supplies. That is great leverage if they want to go for the nuclear option. So I don't think they will go home empty handed, but I recon we never hear about what they actually get.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

6 minutes ago, Myron said:

Mercedes should pursue it to the end and the result should be overturned with the prior lap standings being reinstated, Lewis had the championship stolen from him by the officials deciding to pull rank on the rulebook.

 

Then Red Bull would sue, and win.

 

They won by complying with the race director's orders.  Mercedes could in theory pursue this as far as suing for provable financial losses from the decision but they have no mechanism to overturn the decision.

 

No-one, least of all the teams and FIA are served by it becoming a bad thing to obey race direction.  "A safety car has been called"  "Ok Lewis keep going full speed, the incident is in turn 8 and we disagree with the SC so we'll just ignore it".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, metallicfrodo said:

 

I wasn't commenting on if they have any basis, just is there a legal entity outside of the FIA that they can appeal to.

 

Fair.

 

The trouble is CAS is really just going to look at if the sport applied their own rules. They did.

 

I'm not sure whether CAS can force a sport to do anything either actually.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

Fair.

 

The trouble is CAS is really just going to look at if the sport applied their own rules. They did.

 

I'm not sure whether CAS can force a sport to do anything either actually.

 

Do you mean the rule that says the race director's discretion is final, even if he's made up a new rule that isn't in the rulebook?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, mexos said:

The result is the result and it's not changing imo. Even if Merc threaten to pull out the team and all of their customer engine supplies. That is great leverage if they want to go for the nuclear option. So I don't think they will go home empty handed, but I recon we never hear about what they actually get.

 

I did read that there is precedent for an appeal overturning a race result. Clearly this is much more important than a single race but the classified results have been changed on appeal in the past. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, jonathanhoey said:

 

Do you mean the rule that says the race director's discretion is final, even if he's made up a new rule that isn't in the rulebook?

 

Yes, If the teams signed up to that, and they did, can't see CAS overturning it even if they have the

 

Just now, McCoy said:

 

I did read that there is precedent for an appeal overturning a race result. Clearly this is much more important than a single race but the classified results have been changed on appeal in the past. 

 

There absolutely is, but I don't know of a single time it's happened except when a team broke the rules.

 

And here, no team did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My own thoughts on the whole thing are basically Hanlon's Razor - it wasn't a fix, just good old lack of competence. I have no doubt that Masi's job is very hard; nor do I have any doubt that he's been doing it quite badly for some time, not just this race. 

 

Ahead of the finale, I would have preferred to see Hamilton win. In light of what actually happened, I'm disappointed and I do think Hamilton was absolutely robbed by poor officiating, but it is what it is. There's no way Max is being stripped of the title, even if it was gifted to him in the end. Max and RBR didn't do anything wrong, they just reacted to the situation put in front of them. 

 

I also don't think Masi is going anywhere in the foreseeable future. He can't be got rid of, or even allowed to 'resign', because as many people have said already, that would be seen as a clear admission that he'd unfairly influenced the title decision. 

 

Then again, you've got Andrew Benson at the BBC saying that at least half the teams on the grid now have no confidence in Masi. Obviously three of those are the works Mercedes team, plus McLaren and Williams as engine customers (edit: four! I forgot Aston Martin. Thanks Dudley!) And you can ignore RBR and SAT as they'll be very happy with him right now. So I suppose the question marks are with Alpine and the Ferrari-powered teams. 

 

At most, if Masi's head IS going to roll, perhaps the whole race will be deleted. Then Max remains WDC and Mercedes-Benz remains WCC and nothing actually changes, but maybe it looks like some kind of justice. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, jonathanhoey said:

My own thoughts on the whole thing are basically Hanlon's Razor - it wasn't a fix, just good old lack of competence. I have no doubt that Masi's job is very hard; nor do I have any doubt that he's been doing it quite badly for some time, not just this race. 

 

Ahead of the finale, I would have preferred to see Hamilton win. In light of what actually happened, I'm disappointed and I do think Hamilton was absolutely robbed by poor officiating, but it is what it is. There's no way Max is being stripped of the title, even if it was gifted to him in the end. Max and RBR didn't do anything wrong, they just reacted to the situation put in front of them. 

 

I also don't think Masi is going anywhere in the foreseeable future. He can't be got rid of, or even allowed to 'resign', because as many people have said already, that would be seen as a clear admission that he'd unfairly influenced the title decision. 

 

Then again, you've got Andrew Benson at the BBC saying that at least half the teams on the grid now have no confidence in Masi. Obviously three of those are the works Mercedes team, plus McLaren and Williams as engine customers. And you can ignore RBR and SAT as they'll be very happy with him right now. So I suppose the question marks are with Alpine and the Ferrari-powered teams. 

 

At most, if Masi's head IS going to roll, perhaps the whole race will be deleted. Then Max remains WDC and Mercedes-Benz remains WCC and nothing actually changes, but maybe it looks like some kind of justice. 

 

See, to me Masi going is an implicit admission that the FIA fucked up and that the race rules were not followed but without having to actually admit any liability or change results.  Publicly it will be stepping back for personal reasons but the teams and the rest of us will know the real reason. 

 

I think it is something like this Mercedes will be going for. Just an admission, obvious for those who follow the sport, that the rules were not followed and they will accept that and head to 2022. And for all the casuals, it was just last lap F1 japes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, kiroquai said:

 

Yes, and here it is!

 

  Hide contents

1: Carol Godin de Beaufort

2: Ben Pon

3: Gijs van Lennep

4: Ben Pon (again)

5: Roelof Wunderink

6: Michael Bleekemolen

7: Jan Lammers in the 1980's

8: Jos Verstappen when racing for Arrows

9: Yves Giraud Cabantous

10: Jos Verstappen when racing for Benetton

11: Arthur Legat

12: Yuji Ide

13: Thierry Boutsen

14: Max Verstappen

15: Max Verstappen's Mum

16: Jan Lammers in the 1990's

17: Olivier Grouillard

18: Ricardo Londono-Bridge

19: Huub Rothengatter

20: A Windmill 

 

You absolute madman, you! 😐

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, jonathanhoey said:

Then again, you've got Andrew Benson at the BBC saying that at least half the teams on the grid now have no confidence in Masi. Obviously three of those are the works Mercedes team, plus McLaren and Williams as engine customers. And you can ignore RBR and SAT as they'll be very happy with him right now. So I suppose the question marks are with Alpine and the Ferrari-powered teams. 

 

You've missed out Aston Martin, who I'd file with your first group not least because 5% of the car company (but not the team) is owned by one T.Wolff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is being widely reported that Masi made it clear to the teams, and the teams were in agreement, that in the event of a late safety car, he would make every effort to not have the race end under a safety car. Martin Brundle said in an interview that it takes more time than you'd imagine to actually work out who the lapped cars are and their relative positions in the field, particularly when you're also having to monitor the recovery of a crashed vehicle and field demands from frantic team principals. 

In imagining this situation, with remaining laps dwindling fast, these considerations go some way to explaining, if not excusing, the reasoning behind the "solution" he came up with. 

This solution did of course heavily disadvantage Lewis and heavily favour Max. Perhaps a different solution would have seen Max disadvantaged, with RB throwing their toys out of the pram. 

If having the race not finish under safety car was seen as all important and pre agreed with the teams, it still leaves not letting any lapped cars through as a more fair solution, for Lewis, but perhaps not for Max. I'd have preferred the no cars let through option as Lewis had surely earned that much at least, but again, the more information that emerges, the slightly less bizarre or sinister Masi's decision appears. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Dudley said:

 

You've missed out Aston Martin, who I'd file with your first group not least because 5% of the car company (but not the team) is owned by one T.Wolff.

 

Oh so I did! In my mind I think I still associate the Aston Martin brand with Red Bull Racing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Blue said:

It is being widely reported that Masi made it clear to the teams, and the teams were in agreement, that in the event of a late safety car, he would make every effort to not have the race end under a safety car. Martin Brundle said in an interview that it takes more time than you'd imagine to actually work out who the lapped cars are and their relative positions in the field, particularly when you're also having to monitor the recovery of a crashed vehicle and field demands from frantic team principals. 

In imagining this situation, with remaining laps dwindling fast, these considerations go some way to explaining, if not excusing, the reasoning behind the "solution" he came up with. 

This solution did of course heavily disadvantage Lewis and heavily favour Max. Perhaps a different solution would have seen Max disadvantaged, with RB throwing their toys out of the pram. 

If having the race not finish under safety car was seen as all important and pre agreed with the teams, it still leaves not letting any lapped cars through as a more fair solution, for Lewis, but perhaps not for Max. I'd have preferred the no cars let through option as Lewis had surely earned that much at least, but again, the more information that emerges, the slightly less bizarre or sinister Masi's decision appears. 

 

I don't think that's a problem, but as you say, surely the fairest thing would then be no cars unlap themselves. The reason Max had those cars in between him is because Red Bull chose to keep pitting him. I don't think either team could have had any major grievances in that scenario, and Max could still have beaten Lewis.

 

I guess ultimately it just comes back to how baffling the final decision was. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Rocafella said:

 

I don't think that's a problem, but as you say, surely the fairest thing would then be no cars unlap themselves. The reason Max had those cars in between him is because Red Bull chose to keep pitting him. I don't think either team could have had any major grievances in that scenario, and Max could still have beaten Lewis.

 

Yes, and surely the lapped cars would have leapt out of Max's way given what was at stake and them not wanting to interfere with the result, so it could still have been an exciting last lap. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, jonathanhoey said:

Then again, you've got Andrew Benson at the BBC saying that at least half the teams on the grid now have no confidence in Masi. Obviously three of those are the works Mercedes team, plus McLaren and Williams as engine customers (edit: four! I forgot Aston Martin. Thanks Dudley!) And you can ignore RBR and SAT as they'll be very happy with him right now. So I suppose the question marks are with Alpine and the Ferrari-powered teams. 

No, Red Bull are upset as well: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-f1-needs-rules-rethink-after-abu-dhabi-controversy/6883951/

 

---

"The whole system needs to be rethought,” said Marko, after a season when Red Bull has been unhappy at times with FIA decisions.

“There needs to be consistency. Decisions cannot be interpreted once this way and once that way. The rules must be simplified. The premise must be: let's race!”

Marko believes that with the FIA appointing a president after Friday’s election, the opportunity is there for Jean Todt’s successor to move swiftly to ensure F1 does better in the future.

Asked if there needed to be a change of personnel, Marko said: “That in itself is not our task, but after so many mistakes and questionable decisions were made, there is certainly a great need for action

“A new president is coming, so he will want to start here first. And the stewards should definitely be questioned.”

---

 

I thinl the underlying sentiment there is "yeah, it's nice we won, but we'd have had it sewn up weeks ago if it wasn't for calls we disagreed with".

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Blue said:

Yes, and surely the lapped cars would have leapt out of Max's way given what was at stake and them not wanting to interfere with the result, so it could still have been an exciting last lap. 


Max couldn’t overtake until the safety car line and Hamilton would have bolted in the hotel section to give himself a lead and been several seconds up the road before Max could clear them. Masi ensured Hamilton didn’t even get that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ryodi said:


Max couldn’t overtake until the safety car line and Hamilton would have bolted in the hotel section to give himself a lead and been several seconds up the road before Max could clear them. Masi ensured Hamilton didn’t even get that.

Indeed. I'd have liked to see that lap. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.