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Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - #Michael Messy


T Pot
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Yeah, as someone who was cheering for Max to win the WDC and has been all year, even I was disappointed with how that played out.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I was still up shouting at the TV heart in my mouth sorta stuff, but I would have much preferred a red flag standing restart that what we got.

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Of course the big issue going forwards is how do teams work strategy from now on. 

 

We all knows teams have smart people, lots of computers working very quickly to assist on the best decision to make but you can only do that if you broadly have a framework that the future may adhere to. 

 

Car crashes 5 laps before the end. You think that it's probably safety car to end of the race because of time it will take to clear up the car, let lapped leaders unlap themselves etc. 

 

When you're suddenly making up precedent then how on earth do teams make decisions? Logically the decision not to pit Hamilton was the correct decision. As we saw, there was not enough time to clear up the debris, let cars unlap themselves and resume racing. Pitting Hamilton would have lost the race as Max would have stayed out and won it under safety car conditions. But you can't make these decisions if the terms of engagement are going to suddenly change. We've seen all cars unlap themselves, we've seen cars not unlap themselves. Both scenarios give Hamilton the win. The only scenario that doesn't give Hamilton the win is the scenario we got which, well, didn't really exist before today. 

 

But I honestly don't know how teams in the future can make important decisions if the rules are just going to be changed/ignored 5 minutes later. 

 

If the precedent was that Race Control would always go to extreme lengths to end on a racing lap, and this includes allowing some but not all cars to unlap themselves and also suddenly withdrawing a SC then, Mercedes might have made a different pit decision. But that's never been the precedent so how on earth can Mercedes, or any team, ever hope to make educated decisions going forwards.

 

There's a reason in football we don't suddenly make the goals bigger in the last 10 minutes of the Champions League final in order to make the spectacle better. 

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The more I think about it the more outraged I am . What other sport would modify its own rules in the last minutes of the “final” in order to create a better spectacle? How is this acceptable? 

none of this on max by the way. He’s a worthy champion 

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And correct me if I'm wrong, and I wasn't following the positions of all drivers at the time, but it is quite likely that Red Bull's decision to pit Max put some more back markers in front of him. 

 

If you don't want to have to pass back markers then perhaps that should be a consideration of taking a 'cheap' pitstop. Don't yell at the referree for not solving a situation that you may have made worse with your own decision. 

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35 minutes ago, bradigor said:

 

 

 

Schumacher is my sporting hero so I know I am unashamedly biased 


what’s your views on his attempts (one successful) to drive into rivals to prevent them winning the WDC?   That’s always left a massive mark on his legacy for me. 

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10 minutes ago, PaB said:

The more I think about it the more outraged I am . What other sport would modify its own rules in the last minutes of the “final” in order to create a better spectacle? How is this acceptable? 

none of this on max by the way. He’s a worthy champion 

 

Yep, and there was absolutely no need to go to such extreme lengths to modify the rules. Don't let lapped cars passed (which is a fair decision not to do if you want to restart the race quickly) and Hamilton rightly wins as he dominated the race. End under safety car (as many races have ended before) and Hamilton rightly wins. 

 

Change all precedent, half arse your interpretation of the the rules and make dodgy decisions on the fly and all this gave us was a race winner who was not the worthy race winner. 

 

All that manipulation and for what? To give us a winner who never looked remotely in contention for the win?  Making all those questionable decisions to simply give us a chance of an un worthy winner seems utterly pointless. If the race had been nip and tuck or looked like it would naturally have come down to a final lap showdown then I get the intention. But this race never looked like coming down to the final few laps for a change of result. 

 

I honestly don't think anyone would care if it had ended under safety car. Hamilton was way ahead, had led the whole race and was a worthy winner today. No one would have given a shit to have a safety car ending in those circumstances. Instead we're left with, well, this complete mess of a result. 

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I think one thing this has made me think about is how much I’ve let F1 affect me.   I had this as a Liverpool fan in the 90’s and 2000’s as Man Utd dominated.  I’d watch Liverpool matches and just come away bitterly disappointed with the losses or the individual mistakes being made.  I realised that watching them live was having a real negative affect on me. So I stopped watching and largely picked up the highlights or end scores.  
 

the way this race has ended has hit me in a similar way emotionally and I really don’t like it.  Not the feeling bad about it. It’s more the how invested I’ve become that two very rich guys who I’ll never meet have managed to affect me and they don’t even know I exist. Am I in too deep.  The F1 break is going to be interesting.  I think I need to take a good look at my own resilience.  Anyone else get that sort of thing?  
 

Massive props to everyone in this thread by the way with the discussion post race being largely civil.  You’re better people than I am.  Peace out. 

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Not that I am in any position to criticise Hamilton’s racing, but the red bulls had been repeatedly pulling the same trick throwing it up the inside and parking the apex. That first big corner on the final lap Hamilton covered the outside but that’s exactly what Max did again, the only explanation I can think is Hamilton was opening the door for Max to screw up or he’d have the tow for the rest of the lap to get past but I can’t see he’d ever want to give up track position.

 

That aside hearing Horner barking in the race directors ear during all the chaos seems somewhat strange, but super impressed by how Hamilton handled himself on a weekend of getting boo’s by the crowd and not only accepted the result he even thought to mention the pandemic and wish everyone a safe Christmas ☺️

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13 minutes ago, rafaqat said:

I think one thing this has made me think about is how much I’ve let F1 affect me.   I had this as a Liverpool fan in the 90’s and 2000’s as Man Utd dominated.  I’d watch Liverpool matches and just come away bitterly disappointed with the losses or the individual mistakes being made.  I realised that watching them live was having a real negative affect on me. So I stopped watching and largely picked up the highlights or end scores.  
 

the way this race has ended has hit me in a similar way emotionally and I really don’t like it.  Not the feeling bad about it. It’s more the how invested I’ve become that two very rich guys who I’ll never meet have managed to affect me and they don’t even know I exist. Am I in too deep.  The F1 break is going to be interesting.  I think I need to take a good look at my own resilience.  Anyone else get that sort of thing?  
 

Massive props to everyone in this thread by the way with the discussion post race being largely civil.  You’re better people than I am.  Peace out. 


I really got suckered back into F1 in a big way when it first came back to our screens during the pandemic.  So much had gone and there was still so little we were allowed to do that watching the F1 was great again as it takes up so much time and was entertaining.

 

Now I don’t feel like I want to prioritise it.  I found the whole thing really stressful today, and I’m not even a Lewis Hamilton “fan”, I just wanted him to win that 8th championship.

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I'll continue watching, I'm not a fan of any particular driver or team and, well, honestly, as much as today has left me utterly baffled, its also not really anything new for the people running Formula 1, there's always been a level of ineptitude, though I think today was far worse than anything we've seen before. They, and Liberty, are clearly chasing the show and I'm actually relieved the season is over and there's not been any major catastrophe's as at times its often felt like general safety has been ignored in favour of the sports increased social media and streaming presence.

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I'm done with the season now and have switched off. It is one thing I love about how my ADHD affects me. I'll sleep tonight and something else will take my attention. 

 

I'll watch next season and want to see Lewis and Max go at it, hopefully with defined rules that let them duke it out fully on the track. 

 

 

 

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It’s going to be interesting to see how the end of season reviews for Max’s championship spin him winning the final race when he was nowhere for 57 laps of it., couldn’t close the gap with new hard tyres and took another free pit stop and a Masi assist to allow him to even challenge for the win. 

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6 minutes ago, ryodi said:

It’s going to be interesting to see how the end of season reviews for Max’s championship spin him winning the final race when he was nowhere for 57 laps of it., couldn’t close the gap with new hard tyres and took another free pit stop and a Masi assist to allow him to even challenge for the win. 


I’ve probably said it before, but it’s worth watching any Clive James season reviews you can find. He’d call it straight, and would take the mick out of anything that deserved it. He’d have had a brilliant take on this year I’m sure. 

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56 minutes ago, McCoy said:

Of course the big issue going forwards is how do teams work strategy from now on. 

 

We all knows teams have smart people, lots of computers working very quickly to assist on the best decision to make but you can only do that if you broadly have a framework that the future may adhere to. 

 

Car crashes 5 laps before the end. You think that it's probably safety car to end of the race because of time it will take to clear up the car, let lapped leaders unlap themselves etc. 

 

When you're suddenly making up precedent then how on earth do teams make decisions? Logically the decision not to pit Hamilton was the correct decision. As we saw, there was not enough time to clear up the debris, let cars unlap themselves and resume racing. Pitting Hamilton would have lost the race as Max would have stayed out and won it under safety car conditions. But you can't make these decisions if the terms of engagement are going to suddenly change. We've seen all cars unlap themselves, we've seen cars not unlap themselves. Both scenarios give Hamilton the win. The only scenario that doesn't give Hamilton the win is the scenario we got which, well, didn't really exist before today. 

 

But I honestly don't know how teams in the future can make important decisions if the rules are just going to be changed/ignored 5 minutes later. 

 

If the precedent was that Race Control would always go to extreme lengths to end on a racing lap, and this includes allowing some but not all cars to unlap themselves and also suddenly withdrawing a SC then, Mercedes might have made a different pit decision. But that's never been the precedent so how on earth can Mercedes, or any team, ever hope to make educated decisions going forwards.

 

There's a reason in football we don't suddenly make the goals bigger in the last 10 minutes of the Champions League final in order to make the spectacle better. 

 

Yes, all of this. I don’t know how Red Bull don't seem weird at all about it, the presenters after were like 'you couldn't script it! It's like a film!'...but it didn't all unfold naturally? I wanted Hamilton to win to get his 8th, it would have felt so weird if it was him spending the entire race second best by far then waltzing past after Red Bull did everything perfectly. Verstappen had.. how many laps (15?) on fresher tyres to close the gap on Hamilton staying out on increasingly worn tyres and he couldn't.

 

The lack of awkwardness at stealing a win despite being second best all race is bizarre to me. Like a parent only seeing the good in their serial killer son or something. No one knows if the drivers were reversed if Masi would have let Hamilton through, or whether Horner being in his ear influenced him. Them wanting a new champion isn't a conspiracy theory. 

 

That bit when it came up on screen 'lapped cars not allowed to overtake', to then seconds later 'lapped cars to overtake the safety car' with the commentators yelling 'what on earth is going on?!' as Verstappen is suddenly side by side Hamilton was a surreal moment of spectacle. At least if he's asked to give the place back at the beginning of the race he has time to make it back and the pace to do it, and while maybe disagree think 'fair enough, I have the whole race to come back'.

 

There's been a few analogies to football, this will end up so convoluted but I've been thinking maybe if a team is 5-0 up in a cup final with 10 minutes to go and them losing is extremely unlikely if not basically impossible, then a player of either side gets injured and play is stopped, and say the referee can't add on time at the end and instead decides it'd be anticlimactic to just end the final and tournament like this as time runs out and the injured player is being treated so the referee removes the keeper of the currently winning team and yells patronisingly at the winning team's manager 'it's called a football match, we're playing football', the inevitability of it plays out with players just hitting the ball from 35 yards into a now empty net. 

 

The away goal rule that was in the champions league for so long was unfair I think but at least teams know beforehand, and more unfair if you're the team playing extra time with that advantage, although people will argue playing extra time at home is more of an advantage. It's uneven but consistent, there are no surprises. And managers aren't speaking to the referee all game aiming to influence him, there is no bargaining or deals.

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I've decided that both Red Bull and Mercedes, in conjunction with Michael Masi have shone such a bad light on Formula 1 this season that all of them have been kicked out and drivers title is to be awarded to Felipe Baby (by Timo Glock).

 

I slept on it last night, and I think it's the right choice. I'm undecided where the constructors title goes, but no one really gives a shit about the constructors

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Having slept on it I’m still annoyed by the result. Hamilton and Mercedes got completely fucked over in favour of the show and Max was given a win he didn’t deserve. I expect the appeal to fail if they go through with it which they should because how can you race when the Masi is making up the rules as he goes along? 

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9 hours ago, McCoy said:

 

Yep, and there was absolutely no need to go to such extreme lengths to modify the rules. Don't let lapped cars passed (which is a fair decision not to do if you want to restart the race quickly) and Hamilton rightly wins as he dominated the race. End under safety car (as many races have ended before) and Hamilton rightly wins. 

 

 

I don't disagree with any of your posts except this.

 

I think Max still wins that no lapped past race.

 

But here's the thing, neither of us know.  It would have been up to how well he could carve through the traffic in one lap.  It'd be in doubt to the line.  What do we call something like that? Maybe a short punchy name like "Sport".

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I’m sure on the comms at one point Masi said his concern was clearing everything SAFELY and then he makes a rule change in the exact opposite direction by flouting the extra lap for SAFELY letting the safety car in and the unlapped cars sorting themselves.

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17 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

I don't disagree with any of your posts except this.

 

I think Max still wins that no lapped past race.

 

But here's the thing, neither of us know.  It would have been up to how well he could carve through the traffic in one lap.  It'd be in doubt to the line.  What do we call something like that? Maybe a short punchy name like "l

 

17 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

I don't disagree with any of your posts except this.

 

I think Max still wins that no lapped past race.

 

But here's the thing, neither of us know.  It would have been up to how well he could carve through the traffic in one lap.  It'd be in doubt to the line.  What do we call something like that? Maybe a short punchy name like "Sport".


Yeah. That decision would have been controversial no matter who won (my money would also have been on Max), but at least a reasonable interpretation of the rules.

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12 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

I don't disagree with any of your posts except this.

 

I think Max still wins that no lapped past race.

 

But here's the thing, neither of us know.  It would have been up to how well he could carve through the traffic in one lap.  It'd be in doubt to the line.  What do we call something like that? Maybe a short punchy name like "Sport".

Yes it would have been more interesting to see if he could win having to pass the lapped cars. They'd have dived out of the way pretty smartish but it would have cost him a few seconds. Doubtful he'd have made it and high chance it ends with a Carlos win and a lot of wreckage. 

Shambles all round. 

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11 hours ago, T Pot said:


I think that’s a bit shitty. Max didn’t fuck about and change the rules as he saw fit.

 

I think it's a joke about when people on Come Dine with Me accept losing in the least magnanimous possible way

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