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Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - #Michael Messy


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5 minutes ago, mexos said:

 

Blue, that is all about let them race. :lol:

 

Jokes aside, that move is imo all about Ham showing his disgust at what had gone before by giving Max a little taste of his own medicine. It wasn't right though and he should have received a slap at the very least - if not a pen. It was not clean racing imo. FIA were in a pickle mind after Brazil. Imagine the scenes if they'd penalised Ham here after letting it slide in Brazil.

 

It kind of makes me think of the way Alonso did his move at the first corner a few races ago. I can get away with that? Cool, I'll do it then. THEN the FIA wake up and do something about it for future races.

 

All of this could have been avoided if they'd dealt with that move in Brazil...

 

Yup, FIA created the problem and Hamilton reminded them of that - absolutely perfect bit of gamesmanship while making the rules makers look foolish - they literally could not punish him without making them look fraudulent 😂

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6 minutes ago, mexos said:

 

Blue, that is all about let them race. :lol:

 

Jokes aside, that move is imo all about Ham showing his disgust at what had gone before by giving Max a little taste of his own medicine. It wasn't right though and he should have received a slap at the very least - if not a pen. 

I don't agree actually. Ham has been doing that exact move for years and it has quite rightly been deemed fine by the FIA for years. 

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23 minutes ago, Meers said:

 

The apex is the point at which you are closest to the inside of the corner, also referred to as the clipping point. Once you have hit the apex you should be able to reduce the steering lock, start increasing the throttle and focus on the exit. It usually isn't at the end of the kerb stones (as you can see in the vid below) but more halfway through the corner if Lewis would have followed the ideal line through it.

 

Depends what you're maximising for, an extreme "slow-in fast-out" line would lead to a super-late apex like that. I don't think there's anything dictating what line/apex you must use. Copse was a bit different because Lewis was never going to meet the inside kerb at any point. (Though personally I think he ended up in that position because he expected Max to move out and take the racing line, so he ended up entering the corner too narrow anyway).

 

23 minutes ago, Meers said:

 

He left no space for Max and decided to squeeze him, even looked in his right mirror whilst turning left (check his onboard).

 

But I agree with this, he didn't leave a car's width, despite Max being essentially alongside, which is the fundamental spirit of the rules I think. I'm also pretty sure Max wouldn't have left a car's width either though in the same position.

 

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What I didn't like here is that Lew was miles away from the apex. His normal run the other driver out manoeuvre is to take the corner normally - as it be in the same postcode as the apex and let the car naturally drift out as he applies throttle. The car on the outside gets the choice to back out or they will eventually run out of road on the exit kerbs.

 

Here he is doing something more like the Rosberg move in Austria. He simply doesn't turn in when he normally would and runs the other car out out before they are even half way around the corner.

 

TLDR:

Running someone on the outside out on corner exit when you made the corner fair and square = probably ok

Running someone off the road before you are anywhere near the apex = probably sus.

 

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Just now, morcs said:

 

 

 

But I agree with this, he didn't leave a car's width, despite Max being essentially alongside, which is the fundamental spirit of the rules I think. I'm also pretty sure Max wouldn't have left a car's width either though in the same position.

 

Nah, Max chanced his arm and got shepherded off in a totally fair move. He wasn't alongside in any controlled manner going into the corner. 

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Just now, Blue said:

Nah, Max chanced his arm and got shepherded off in a totally fair move. He wasn't alongside in any controlled manner going into the corner. 

 

In that case though Lewis could have left a car's width and Max would still have driven off the track. Though maybe if he'd already started braking it was too late for that.

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1 minute ago, mexos said:

What I didn't like here is that Lew was miles away from the apex. His normal manoeuvre is to take the corner normally - as it be in the same postcode as the apex and left the car drift out as he applies throttle. The car on the outside gets the choice to back out or they will eventually run out of road.

 

Here he is doing something more like the Rosberg move in Austria. He simply doesn't turn in when he normally would and runs the car out out before they are even half way around the corner.

 

TLDR:

Running someone out on corner exit when you made the corner fair and square = probably ok

Running someone off the road before you are anywhere near the apex = probably sus.

 

He's free to take whatever line he wants into the corner as long as Max isn't alongside imo, you RB fanboy. 😁

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1 minute ago, morcs said:

 

In that case though Lewis could have left a car's width and Max would still have driven off the track. Though maybe if he'd already started braking it was too late for that.

If Lewis leaves a car width, Max would have been through with 2 wheels still on the track and probably half Lewis' wing hanging off. Lewis ain't daft. 

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11 minutes ago, morcs said:

Depends what you're maximising for, an extreme "slow-in fast-out" line would lead to a super-late apex like that. I don't think there's anything dictating what line/apex you must use.

 

Correct but what I meant was...

 

9 minutes ago, mexos said:

Lew was miles away from the apex. His normal manoeuvre is to take the corner normally 

 

What @mexos said here. It wasn't his normal line is what I meant.

 

11 minutes ago, morcs said:

But I agree with this, he didn't leave a car's width, despite Max being essentially alongside, which is the fundamental spirit of the rules I think. I'm also pretty sure Max wouldn't have left a car's width either though in the same position.

 

Exactly. For the record, I don't condone Max' divebombs either. They seem to be making each others' racing lives quite miserable at this point. I predict another Monza Mounttm in Abu.

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5 minutes ago, morcs said:

I think apex is confusing here. Often the optimum line is with a late apex (because cars brake faster than they accelerate) and you actually start accelerating/removing lock long before you clip the apex.

 

It really depends on the corner's characteristics. Sometimes it's in the middle, sometimes earlier and other times later. #itsthesameforeveryonebwoah

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Just now, morcs said:

It's going to be shit isn't it, and will be won by a silly incident or a puncture or something? Everyone's hopes are way too high :lol:

 

I wonder what happens if they take eachother out again and both DNF. Will they have a fencing competition to settle it once and for all?

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1 minute ago, morcs said:

It's going to be shit isn't it, and will be won by a silly incident or a puncture or something? Everyone's hopes are way too high :lol:

 

verstappen gets covid and has to sit out the race, albon steps in and claims his first win :lol:

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1 minute ago, morcs said:

It's going to be shit isn't it, and will be won by a silly incident or a puncture or something? Everyone's hopes are way too high :lol:

 

I'd LOVE to see some clean dicing between the two and the best man on the day takes it. I really can't see it though.

 

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2 minutes ago, Meers said:

 

I wonder what happens if they take eachother out again and both DNF. Will they have a fencing competition to settle it once and for all?

 

Max wins the WDC based on number of wins. He has the joker here. 

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5 minutes ago, SMD said:

verstappen gets covid

 

A few pages ago I said it's poor form to wish diseases on anyone. HAVE YOU NOT LEARNED ANYTHING? 😡

 

3 minutes ago, mexos said:

Max wins the WDC based on number of wins. He has the joker here. 

 

Interesting. Didn't know that.

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32 minutes ago, Blue said:

I don't agree actually. Ham has been doing that exact move for years and it has quite rightly been deemed fine by the FIA for years. 


The rules of engagement have changed since then though. They let Max get away with barging past Leclerc in Austria causing Leclerc to change his driving style. They then bottled giving Leclerc a penalty for crowding Hamilton off track in Monza the same year and they the set a precedent by penalising Perez and Norris for not leaving a cars width in Austria this year. Rosberg did get similar treatment to what Hamilton is getting now but as Rosberg has said when he does Lewis always keeps it within the grey areas and has the decency to stay between the white lines when he does.

 

Max is ahead on count back thanks to the non race at Spa but he’d be ahead without that due his number of second place finishes.

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1 minute ago, Meers said:

 

A few pages ago I said it's poor form to wish diseases on anyone. HAVE YOU NOT LEARNED ANYTHING? 😡

 

 

Interesting. Didn't know that.

 

it's not a wish, my wish this whole time has been for the two to fight for the championship cleanly on the track. i mean specifically for this race i want hamilton to wipe the floor with verstappen and red bull, it would just be funny after all this that verstappen wouldn't be able to race anyway.

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5 minutes ago, ryodi said:

The rules of engagement have changed since then though.

Yes, on an almost race by race basis it seems, but traditionally, unless you're fully alongside, the guy on the inside can legally squeeze you and that's how it should be. Of course each incidence of it has to be judged on its own merits as there can be so many variables. 

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18 minutes ago, mexos said:

 

I'd LOVE to see some clean dicing between the two and the best man on the day takes it. I really can't see it though.

 

I think you would get that if the RB was able to compete but the way things are looking, Merc look likely to be quicker which means Max's only chance will be to get super aggressive. Lewis needs pole, a clean getaway and staying well ahead. RB are going to have to set up for the race rather than qualifying like they did last weekend and hope it's good enough. Imo. 

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22 minutes ago, SMD said:

 

it's not a wish, my wish this whole time has been for the two to fight for the championship cleanly on the track. i mean specifically for this race i want hamilton to wipe the floor with verstappen and red bull, it would just be funny after all this that verstappen wouldn't be able to race anyway.

 

im-watching-watch-you.gif

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34 minutes ago, Meers said:

 

A few pages ago I said it's poor form to wish diseases on anyone. HAVE YOU NOT LEARNED ANYTHING? 😡

 

 


The non-Dutch members here probably don’t appreciate just HOW offensive it is in NL.

 

For example (cover your eyes, Dutch friends) you can make anything wildly offensive by adding the word “kanker”. Like if calling someone a hoer (whore) is bad, then kankerhoer is ten times worse. 
 

I don’t speak Dutch but I can read a little bit. I used to work as a community manager for an MMO with a decently-sized Dutch player base. It was an education. 

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16 minutes ago, jonathanhoey said:

The non-Dutch members here probably don’t appreciate just HOW offensive it is in NL.

 

For example (cover your eyes, Dutch friends) you can make anything wildly offensive by adding the word “kanker”. Like if calling someone a hoer (whore) is bad, then kankerhoer is ten times worse. 
 

I don’t speak Dutch but I can read a little bit. I used to work as a community manager for an MMO with a decently-sized Dutch player base. It was an education. 

 

It's jarring indeed, even when you're 'used to it' (if you ever will). It's most often used by a 'certain demographic'. Most people I know don't talk like that though, thankfully. It makes me dislike someone immediately anyway.

 

I speak 4 languages, and can understand a couple more, and I find that Dutch is by far the worst language when it comes to swear words.

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22 minutes ago, morcs said:

I know it's been accepted forever but I never really understood why the inside car is allowed to squeeze on exit.

Because otherwise going around the outside would be a free pass as inside guy has to give up the natural racing line and speed, which isn't fair on him unless  outside guy is already alongside. I think outside guy's front wing by inside guy's front wheel, or similar, is the accepted minimal standard for being alongside?

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4 minutes ago, Blue said:

Because otherwise going around the outside would be a free pass as inside guy has to give up the natural racing line and speed

 

Both have to give up the natural racing line though, the outside loses the apex and the inside loses the exit.

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