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Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - #Michael Messy


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5 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

I'm not sure I dare, but go on then....

 

As for Max not crossing any lines - he literally brake tested his championship rival on an extremely fast track with lots of blind corners. He didn't cross the line so much as go so far past it the stewards totally forgot where it actually was supposed to be.

1: Bottas backing the field up ion the first safety car so they could do a safe double stop was definitely on the dodgy side.

2: The slow approach to restart 1? (argable)

3: Lewis being as bit robust on the pass (Which he was warned for, but seemed no worse than stuff Max has got away with such as brazil)?

 

I;m less bothered by Masi's negotiation, Masi's the coppers, the stewards are the courts, so it's like being given a fixed penalty notice for speeding which you can pay or take your chances with the judge.

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12 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

I'm not sure I dare, but go on then....

 

As for Max not crossing any lines - he literally brake tested his championship rival on an extremely fast track with lots of blind corners. He didn't cross the line so much as go so far past it the stewards totally forgot where it actually was supposed to be.

 

He literally didn't brake test him.

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2 minutes ago, RFT said:

1: Bottas backing the field up ion the first safety car so they could do a safe double stop was definitely on the dodgy side.

2: The slow approach to restart 1? (argable)

3: Lewis being as bit robust on the pass (Which he was warned for, but seemed no worse than stuff Max has got away with such as brazil)?

 

I;m less bothered by Masi's negotiation, Masi's the coppers, the stewards are the courts, so it's like being given a fixed penalty notice for speeding which you can pay or take your chances with the judge.

 

Yeah, number 1 Mercedes absolutely got away with, number 2 would have been illegal for the original start but not for a restart (clever),  number 3 is 100% a non-issue.

 

The 3 I refer to them getting a bit lucky with are your #1 plus the blockings on Mazepin and Kimi in practices.  No problem as such with those not being pinged but you know we'd have 30 posts on it if the colour of the car was different.

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9 minutes ago, RFT said:

1: Bottas backing the field up ion the first safety car so they could do a safe double stop was definitely on the dodgy side.

2: The slow approach to restart 1? (argable)

3: Lewis being as bit robust on the pass (Which he was warned for, but seemed no worse than stuff Max has got away with such as brazil)?

 

I;m less bothered by Masi's negotiation, Masi's the coppers, the stewards are the courts, so it's like being given a fixed penalty notice for speeding which you can pay or take your chances with the judge.

 

1) Maybe, arguable. Pushed to the limit.

2) It wasn't a formation lap, Masi made that one clear

3) The fact Lewis got an instant warning for that given everything that Max has been getting away with was mental - 'no invetigation required' last time out remember.

 

As for Masi, I have no idea why he's making an 'offer' to the teams - he should be sending stuff to the stewards and letting them apply the rules. A professional sport should not be flexing the rules just to maintain entertainment. I honestly can't understand why Merc agreed to it, I had been them I'd have said no way, send that to the stewards and get the punishment done right. I'm damn sure that's what Salty Spice would have done.

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5 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

He literally didn't brake test him.

 

He literally did. Read the statement:

 

Quote

In deciding to penalise the driver of Car 33, the key point for the Stewards was that the driver of car 33 then braked suddenly (69 bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration.

 

I'll wait for you to say that's OK......

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10 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

He literally did. Read the statement:

 

 

I'll wait for you to say that's OK......

He braked, to try to get the DRS. That's not the same thing as brake testing Lewis. Max had been told to let Lewis past and must have been wondering why he wasn't passing him. Lewis hadn't been told that Max had been instructed to let him past so was confused as to why Max was slowing down, prior to his strong braking. If Lewis had been properly informed, he wouldn't have been directly behind Max and Max clearly didn't expect Lewis to be sat directly behind him. 

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9 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

1) Maybe, arguable. Pushed to the limit.

2) It wasn't a formation lap, Masi made that one clear

3) The fact Lewis got an instant warning for that given everything that Max has been getting away with was mental - 'no invetigation required' last time out remember.

 

As for Masi, I have no idea why he's making an 'offer' to the teams - he should be sending stuff to the stewards and letting them apply the rules. A professional sport should not be flexing the rules just to maintain entertainment. I honestly can't understand why Merc agreed to it, I had been them I'd have said no way, send that to the stewards and get the punishment done right. I'm damn sure that's what Salty Spice would have done.

I suspect Merc declining the offer would have helped them. Max would have to yield to both Ocon and Hamilton in the first lap or so or he's given a 5 sec/drive through. In the NFL you can decline penalties if you can gain an advantage further into the play/game. I didnt mind him offering both teams the option.

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26 minutes ago, Dudley said:

Yeah, I'm firmly of the opinion that grid should have been the original one with the front two swapped but he needed to TELL not ask. What actually happened was he was expertly played by Red Bull who essentially elevated Alpine to a pole they shouldn't have had in order to get the good side of the track.

 

 

I'm not convinced that it would have been right for Ocon to have been negatively affected. 

 

Sure, Max should have given the place to Hamilton but Ocon should then be promoted to the front since that is always how things happen - If you illegally pass a car on track and then have to give it back then you also have to let any cars also in the way through. It is why it is always better to give the place back quickly rather than arguing about it for a few laps. 

 

I'm assuming you think the restart should have been Hamilton, Max and then Ocon? Bit harse on Ocon to demote him a place because Max drove off the track. 

 

I'm also not too worried about the swap chat, as ridiculous as it came across. In races Race Control often asks/tells a driver to give a place back and if they refuse it will go to the Stewards to decide. Only this time it was a chat during the red flag which was just made to look a bit more farcical than it should have been because Masi somehow forgot about Ocon. 

 

I'm slightly surprised Red Bull didn't risk the Stewards and try to make up the, presumably, five second time penalty by driving fast with Hamilton stuck behind Ocon. What we didn't really see was who had the faster car in general. Max looked set for pole but looked broadly matched during the first ten laps. Then they were on different tyres for the rest of the race which makes comparisons difficult. 

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1 minute ago, Meers said:

Hang on, didn't Max move under braking as well, just before Lewis decided to floor it and get past? :eyebrows:

Do you mean when Lewis went into the back of him? There was definitely some wiggling going on.

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16 minutes ago, rgraves said:

As for Masi, I have no idea why he's making an 'offer' to the teams - he should be sending stuff to the stewards and letting them apply the rules. 

 

I think a lot of 'give the place back' decisions we've seen over the years have ben Race Control orders/suggestions. I'm not sure the Stewards can order a place to be given back, just apply a time penalty. 

 

Usually we hear the team tell the driver to give the place back but in previous years this may well have been prompted by Race Control getting involved, we just never heard the chats until this year. 

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I'm surprised at the current betting odds for the Championship. I'd have thought they should both be pretty similar odds, perhaps with Max having the shorter odds since he wins if they both fail to score points (which is not that unlikely...). 

 

Mercedes have had three wins on the trot but Red Bull looked fast at this track and but for a fraction misjudgement by Max on Saturday might have been able to win the race. Red Bull dominated Abu Dhabi last year with the caveat that Hamilton was still suffering the after effects of Covid. 

 

I think it is 50/50 who wins although the betting markets clearly take a different approach. 

Odds.jpg

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35 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

He literally didn't brake test him.

 

Those cars don't need you to tap the brakes. Just lift off.   To be honest, watching it back there was an element of playing the DRS game and an element of not moving to one side and making it easy for Lewis to blast past, get him off the racing line. 

 

I guess it just re-affirms where my personal lines lie.   Schumacher was an incredible driver in his day but I felt some of the things he did tarnished his legacy for me.  Max is the same.  He's going to be a multi world champion at some point.  He's brilliant.  But again for me I'll always dislike him for HOW elbows out he goes. These drivers live on the expectation that others won't be as daring as them.  Problem is when drivers learn to not yield like before and a few crashes later the champs learn to dial it down a bit.  It happened to Schumacher in his later years.  It'll happen to Max.  It's happened to Lewis.  Remember how erratic he was with some of the risks he took early on in his career. Hopefully Max matures and gets better at it.  

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I think I've just about calmed down. Both drivers deserve this. I really hope if Max is to win, then he nails pole for himself and drives off for a fine win. No controversy bs defending or cutting corners. Just do what he's done to win most times this season. He has been superb but his blatant cheating at times has been off putting. 

 

Its fair to say these two are Messi and Ronaldo of F1. Both 30 seconds up the road most races. What a season. 

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8 minutes ago, jonathanhoey said:

I wouldn’t mind seeing a helicopter shot of the brake test incident, if one exists. Does Max jink left or is he just following the line of the track, is what I’m wondering. 

 

Here's it from Lewis' PoV. Just set it to 0.5x playback speed. Slight wiggle from Max but not too severe, in hindsight. Lewis seemed to slow down to Max' speed but then decided to floor it and overtake Max...and poorly judged it all.

 

https://youtu.be/QS4Z38HhsMc?t=53

 

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Regarding the Deal or no Deal conversation:

 

Quote

“I immediately when I saw it happen at Turn 2 suggested to the stewards that I'm going to give the team the ability to give that place back,” Masi said of a radio exchange situation no different than recommendations to give positions back during racing laps that have occurred many times before.

 

From Autosport. 

 

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-the-jeddah-f1-race-became-a-one-sitting-netflix-drama-series/6856385/

 

I have sympathy for Masi. Trying to control a race, talk to teams and Stewards all in real time cannot be an easy job. 

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Just now, Meers said:

 

Here's it from Lewis PoV. Just set it to 0.5x playback speed. Slight wiggle from Max but not too severe, in hindsight. Lewis seemed to slow down to Max' speed but then decided to floor it and overtake Max...and poorly judged it all.

 

 

 

 

Hard to know if it was confusion or tactics but you can imagine, given what later happened, that Hamilton was wary that  unless he got his 'overtake' done exactly right that Max would use DRS or other tactics to then swiftly retake the lead. 

 

Perhaps a rule that if you have been instructed to give a place back you can't use DRS for 1 lap would solve the issue? Or that you cannot retake the lead for a period of 30 seconds after giving the place back. 

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8 minutes ago, jonathanhoey said:

I wouldn’t mind seeing a helicopter shot of the brake test incident, if one exists. Does Max jink left or is he just following the line of the track, is what I’m wondering. 

 

There is definitely a helicopter shot, but couldn't find it on any of the videos online. Doesn't look quite as bad from above IIRC.

 

I think the main thing is that the accident probably would have been avoided had race direction actually done the sensible thing and told Mercedes first and then told Red Bull. As it was, Lewis didn't have a clue what Max was doing as his team hadn't been informed and the resulting confusion along with Max wandering around a little and trying to be clever with the DRS resulted in the collision.

 

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50 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

He literally did. Read the statement:

 

 

I'll wait for you to say that's OK......

 

 

I don't see the words "Brake testing" there or anything that matches the description.

 

That is not the same as saying it was all ok. I said he should be penalised for it and have said that the whole time.

 

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5 minutes ago, kiroquai said:

I think the main thing is that the accident probably would have been avoided had race direction actually done the sensible thing and told Mercedes first and then told Red Bull. As it was, Lewis didn't have a clue what Max was doing as his team hadn't been informed and the resulting confusion along with Max wandering around a little and trying to be clever with the DRS resulted in the collision.

 

I think we'll find out when the team radios become public.

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37 minutes ago, McCoy said:

 

I'm not convinced that it would have been right for Ocon to have been negatively affected. 

 

 

He wouldn't be negatively affected, or at least not in a way he shouldn't expect.  The rule is that you go back to the start of the last lap.

 

And the reason for that is, if you don't, you create the incentive to keep your foot in past accidents in order to gain an advantage.  Ocon did not actually do this but one of the Alfas gained this way and probably others.

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8 minutes ago, kiroquai said:

 

There is definitely a helicopter shot, but couldn't find it on any of the videos online. Doesn't look quite as bad from above IIRC.

 

I think the main thing is that the accident probably would have been avoided had race direction actually done the sensible thing and told Mercedes first and then told Red Bull. As it was, Lewis didn't have a clue what Max was doing as his team hadn't been informed and the resulting confusion along with Max wandering around a little and trying to be clever with the DRS resulted in the collision.

 

 

100%, you do have to remember Red Bull will have been entitled to assume basic competence in the officiating.  Although you also have to accept that means they've not been paying attention.

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4 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

He wouldn't be negatively affected, or at least not in a way he shouldn't expect.  The rule is that you go back to the start of the last lap.

 

Is that a rule for restarts? I know that is the rule if the race ends under a red flag. 

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15 minutes ago, Dudley said:

I don't see the words "Brake testing" there or anything that matches the description.

 

Not even the words, and I'm directly quoting here, "braked suddenly" when Lewis was behind him?

 

Max knew, 100%, what he was up to. I'm not suggesting he wanted to cause a collision, of course not, but he wanted to give the place back in a way that made it possible for him to immediately reclaim it again. He wanted to game the DRS line, while also slowing Lewis down and putting him off line as much as possible. It was dangerous, stupid, and everything 'Red Bull' at the moment unfortunately.

 

The mental gymnastics going on here from some people to try and justify some of the things we saw....it'll end up with a big shunt and somebody being hurt. The line needs to be drawn now, before other drivers not quite as talented as these two try their hand at it 'because it's acceptable'.

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2 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

Not even the words, and I'm directly quoting here, "braked suddenly" when Lewis was behind him?

 

Max knew, 100%, what he was up to. I'm not suggesting he wanted to cause a collision, of course not, but he wanted to give the place back in a way that made it possible for him to immediately reclaim it again. He wanted to game the DRS line, while also slowing Lewis down and putting him off line as much as possible. It was dangerous, stupid, and everything 'Red Bull' at the moment unfortunately.

 

The mental gymnastics going on here from some people to try and justify some of the things we saw....it'll end up with a big shunt and somebody being hurt. The line needs to be drawn now, before other drivers not quite as talented as these two try their hand at it 'because it's acceptable.

 

I think we have to question if @Dudley has ever been seen in the same room as David Coulthard……

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:lol:

 

you just have to look at the decrease in speed, position on the track (both where the car was placed and where the drs line was) and the little wiggle to know Max was saying "I've been told to let you past, im going to leave it up to you to make that possible" which fits in with how he battles in general.

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