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I always imagined that Ray Tracing (the rendering technique, not the forum poster), would actually be better used when managing lighting rather than reflections. There's always the risk that as soon as you've got an easy way of doing reflections you end up with developers turning their whole game into mirrors, which looks awful. Considering how much of a resource hog that it is, it definitely feels like a "less is more" thing right now.

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1 minute ago, Sprite Machine said:

I do wonder how many of these examples actually require ray-tracing to look good enough. I'm often playing decade-old games and I see plenty of examples of reflections in windows, shiny surfaces, mirrors and so on, and they all look perfectly convincing (hell, Mario Sunshine on the Gamecube was doing it 18 years ago) and not a bit of ray-tracing in sight. Is it really worth halving the framerate or resolution to achieve this sort of effect?

I think the best implementation is going to be where you don't even consciously notice it, but it improves the general 'feel' of the gameworld (an intangible quality, for sure) and complement the overall look, rather than be a focal point of it (as some of the Spider-Man shots make it look).

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10 minutes ago, Mogster said:

The performance hit seems to be completely countered by DLSS. I can get 60fps at 4K with ray tracing on Control for instance, with no obvious reduction in quality, so if something similar can be figured out for consoles there might not be quite so big a hit in the future.

 

Graphics hardware will only get better over time anyway. You could argue that any new effect isn't worth the performance hit to start with.

 

I just wish DLSS wasn't shit at lower resolutions. Control, even with DLSS2.0, is an absolute mess at 1080p.

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There's a roughness cut-off that means that it's more computationally expensive to raytrace - particularly reflections of reflections, dirty cars etc. Showing dirty cars accurately reflecting is also much harder than bullshot shiny cars in still images.

 

WD3 is a thing of beauty with raytracing, at 4k and a perceptual 60 backed up by DLSS and VRR, but you're not going to get that on consoles till some clever machine learning takes place far beyond what devs have today.

 

But then WD3 level stuff wasn't possible a year ago, so there is hope!

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2 hours ago, Gabe said:

I think the best implementation is going to be where you don't even consciously notice it, but it improves the general 'feel' of the gameworld (an intangible quality, for sure) and complement the overall look, rather than be a focal point of it (as some of the Spider-Man shots make it look).

I think this is pretty much bang on. 

 

Having recently played through the lovely indie Teardown, which features its own Ray tracing tech, it was the little things that really made my smile, like opening a metal gate, and noticing how the sky was very subtly reflected in it, and thinking 'man, games don't usually do that. 

 

Another one which got me a few times was reflections in interior windows, properly messed with my brain at times, not use to having to process them in games! 

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Great tech. Will do great things for graphics (although maybe a little early to really be useful on consoles without too large a performance hit).

 

Bur almost every example in this thread looks terrible really. Far too reflective. Garish horrors. Looks impressive but not really attractive after a few moments. Once the devs get over it a bit and tune it down it’ll look really great.

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I was firmly in the "I want all the shinies and will take the lower frame rate" until I actually fired up a game. I thought performance modes would look less next gen, when in fact they look more.

 

Spiderman with the upgraded 4k graphics on my new 4k TV at 60FPS is absolutely stunning. I can see me switching to fidelity for relaxing around the city, but for serious sessions performance is clearly the way to go.

 

Demon's Souls boots up in performance mode. It looks stunning. I fired it up in cinematic and couldn't see the difference bar it feeling uncontrollable and looking like it was struggling.

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The Last of Us 2 looks stunning but one of the odd graphical things it does is only some of the mirrors reflect your character. It's odd in that when it works it's seamless, but when you find a slightly dirty mirror (or big TV screen) that doesn't it stands right out.

 

That's one simple example that if done well would not be as in your face as a marble tiled floor but just makes the world feel more real.

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Holy fucking shit.

 

I've been playing Quake II RTX this past couple of nights just to work in my new card. It's astonishing how much immersion real-time reflections adds to the scene, not just that, but all the other fancy lighting-related effects too.

 

I was admiring a shiny texture earlier when through the reflection I could see dudes run in through the doors behind me.

Imagine the same feeling you got when first walking into the big mirror room from Super Mario 64, but slap that everywhere. I tried finding a good video to share but the effect doesn't work anywhere near as well when you're not in direct control of the camera. I keep finding myself purposely walking up to surfaces just to see them reflect off of my gun.

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On 20/11/2020 at 10:48, petrolgirls said:

For me resolution is the least important factor, I'd love a 1080p/1440p 60fps mode with RT in Spiderman but marketing people, you suspect, prioritise these things differently.

 

Someone from Insomniac hinted on Twitter that this is coming.

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4 hours ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

What are the chances of some other version of DLSS coming to consoles? A very optimised version of that sounds like the only way consoles are going to hit 60fps with Ray Tracing (before we get pro versions of them)

 

 

 

It's just not going to happen at 60fps, especially since DLSS relies on the tensor cores of Nvidia cards and not purely software.

 

They'll keep pushing the machines harder, too, leaving even less room for ray-tracing goodness at a decent framerate.

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Devil May Cry 5: SE already hits 60fps with RT though, at launch! You just need to accept lower rendering resolutions and last gen base game visuals to do it. :)

 

ML-reconstruction is also not going to be a free performance boost on AMD hardware, as it, like RT uses the same hardware used for general graphics, not dedicated extra hardware.

 

Microsoft's R&D demonstrated ML-reconstruction years ago using Nvidia hardware:

 

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/gaming-with-windows-ml/

 

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8 hours ago, Super Craig said:

 

Someone from Insomniac hinted on Twitter that this is coming.

I think 1080p can look a bit soft depending on the game, beyond 1440p though and you're into diminshing returns. 60fps or even 120fps more than makes up for that. It's like temporal resolution 

 

I've been playing jedi fallen order on series x, that game has a 60fps mode which now actually runs at 60fps, it didn't on the one x. Only 1080p as it isn't optimised for the new systems but it still looks really good and the framerate makes it look more impressive than the sharper 30fps mode. 

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8 hours ago, Super Craig said:

 

Someone from Insomniac hinted on Twitter that this is coming.

 

Wonder how many people who moan about having graphics options on PC will now think it's a great idea on PS5/Xbox when more and more games start offering so many different modes.

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24 minutes ago, Gabe said:

 

Wonder how many people who moan about having graphics options on PC will now think it's a great idea on PS5/Xbox when more and more games start offering so many different modes.

 

"I love to sit down in front of my telly on the sofa, boot up my [console] and run a couple of benchmarks with a beer. Sometimes I even get on Discord with the guys!"

 

But in all seriousness, this is great for consoles, and I've not been as excited about a console generation in ages. Even if the options just come down to "look pretty" vs."60+ FPS" that's a huge step forward.

 

So awesome.

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1 hour ago, mushashi said:

Devil May Cry 5: SE already hits 60fps with RT though, at launch! You just need to accept lower rendering resolutions and last gen base game visuals to do it. :)

 

ML-reconstruction is also not going to be a free performance boost on AMD hardware, as it, like RT uses the same hardware used for general graphics, not dedicated extra hardware.

 

Microsoft's R&D demonstrated ML-reconstruction years ago using Nvidia hardware:

 

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/gaming-with-windows-ml/

 

 

Doesn't DMC have a hard time keeping 60fps, though? It's also a last-gen game, so it's hardly pushing the consoles.

 

There's the fact that console RT is generally really low-res, too, which isn't exactly ideal.

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31 minutes ago, Gabe said:

 

Wonder how many people who moan about having graphics options on PC will now think it's a great idea on PS5/Xbox when more and more games start offering so many different modes.

Probably a 1:1 link to those who were adamant that 30fps was totally fine now saying how terrible it is.

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4 hours ago, Meh said:

 

Doesn't DMC have a hard time keeping 60fps, though? It's also a last-gen game, so it's hardly pushing the consoles.

 

There's the fact that console RT is generally really low-res, too, which isn't exactly ideal.

 

The game pushed the last gen consoles hard enough already that none of them could do native 4K on it at a flawless 60fps (they had to use reconstruction), the (now) current gen machines are hardly a massive leap in terms of graphics power over the X1X in relative terms (it really is becoming more like PCs where you count yourself lucky to double graphics power when changing hardware).

 

Lowering rendering resolutions is the most classic of performance optimisations, even RT on PC has to use that one. I suppose pray for the Silver bullet that is Machine Learning reconstruction if you want to sort of have your cake and be able to eat it too, it's what even PC gamers have had to accept to be able to use RT at current display resolution standards.

 

The original question also didn't specify what image quality whore standards were required, low resolution RT at 1080p/60 is better than no RT at 4K :D

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18 hours ago, Isaac said:

Halo Infinite is the perfect example of why I think many console games will still target 30fps. Which is a real shame.

 

If the Series S/X do reasonably well over Christmas the XBONE version of Halo Infinite will be sent to live on a farm with the Switch port of Doom Eternal.

 

I expect it will be increasingly unusual for 30fps to be intentionally targeted, continuing the raising of expectations that happened in the last gen. Plus being able to offer a 120hz option is too alluring a prize for the most technically advanced games.

 

...

 

The new consoles should be able to do something useful with raytracing at 1080/60, and I'll take better image quality over pointless 4K any day.

 

It will be interesting to see a more occluded, slower-paced game built with it in mind. And (as Lying Cat says) it's making depth and space and materials more believable that will be where the benefit lies rather than perfect 1:1 reflections all over the place.

 

We're definitely in the 'early days of coloured lighting / bloom / bump mapping / normal mapping' gaudy overuse phase right now though.

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Does watchdogs on Xbox only have perfect 1-1 reflections? On pc there’s a huge amount of partial, occluded reflections in windows - which are much more realistic than perfect mirrors.

 

(Not so obvious in screenshots, or compressed, because they just look like additional shading when static)

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