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Is Backward Compatibility important to you?


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1 hour ago, BossSaru said:

Now, as we approach the PS5 and Series SX consoles' launches, there are plenty of games that I would like to continue playing, or experience for the first time. PS4 games will continue to feel 'modern' for several years, and having one PlayStation console under the TV instead of two feels a basic necessity rather than a desirable feature.

 

That's why Sony are doing it this round, vendor lock-in actually makes financial sense now in a primarily digital library world and current gen experiences not feeling like an ancient relic.

 

BC for me has always been more of a theoretical desire than a practical one. Old games often feel old to play mechanically, so apart from the odd exception, I'm practically not bothered and hopped off the retro train a long time ago. The exception to that I suppose are games/systems where I've not played newer iterations of the same ideas from their successor systems so have no 'better' point of comparison to compare them to.

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3 hours ago, TehStu said:

Yeah, I think I had 5 rrod, although fixed the last one. But worth knowing that the Microsoft hardware team have been doing magic since whomever turned up to do the Surface line. Not that I'm expecting any of these new machines to be faultless. 

 

Way off-topic, but I work on a Surface Book 2 which is lovely piece of kit but... well... there are issues. The battery/GPU thing. The USB-C/4K thing... ugh. It's really disappointing.

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Just now, Cyhwuhx said:

 

Way off-topic, but I work on a Surface Book 2 which is lovely piece of kit but... well... there are issues. The battery/GPU thing. The USB-C/4K thing... ugh. It's really disappointing.

I'd be interested to hear that in the Surface thread in OT. Thought about a Book to replace my daughter's aging Surface 3. My SP3 has some lingering foibles but it's over 5 years old and will work way beyond everyone's disposable tablets. 

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Haven’t yet paid any real attention to the whole PS5 versus New Xbox tussle, to be honest, but am I correct in surmising  that PS5 = very limited backwards compatibility, Xbox = nearly full backwards compatibility?

 

(I like BC. It’s usually an under-rated system feature by many gamers. I hope that whatever replaces the Switch has BC.)

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1 hour ago, Protocol Penguin said:

Haven’t yet paid any real attention to the whole PS5 versus New Xbox tussle, to be honest, but am I correct in surmising  that PS5 = very limited backwards compatibility, Xbox = nearly full backwards compatibility?

 

(I like BC. It’s usually an under-rated system feature by many gamers. I hope that whatever replaces the Switch has BC.)

Sony have said that virtually all PS4 games will work on the PS5. What we don't currently know is how much it will enhance them XB style.

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I don't see why a generic emulator can't be built in to the hardware.  I appreciate it's not of interest to many to play PS1 games on a Ps5, but you could surely add the facility easily enough, and if they stuck all the memorable games from the era on PSN for 99p each you'd surely make a profit on the service.  I'm sure many dads would love to show their kids what Gran Turismo was like "in my day".  I mean, the emulator exists (it's in the PS Classic), and the games all exist  it's surely a tiny amount of cost and effort to do it, surely 5 X 99p downloads and the service has paid for itself!

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2 hours ago, Protocol Penguin said:

Haven’t yet paid any real attention to the whole PS5 versus New Xbox tussle, to be honest, but am I correct in surmising  that PS5 = very limited backwards compatibility, Xbox = nearly full backwards compatibility?

 

(I like BC. It’s usually an under-rated system feature by many gamers. I hope that whatever replaces the Switch has BC.)


If I remember rightly...

 

No. Or not as far as we can know.

 

MS is basically at least:

  • Everything pre-One that ran on the One should run on the Series
  • Every One game should run on the Series

MS have also shown some stuff gets a good bump by running on the Series. Unlocked (or capped at 60 FPS) games are are basically getting to 60 and locking there rather than dropping all the time.

 

Sony have said something like 99% of PS4 titles will work a I think. They’ve just not really shown it and don’t have the same track record as MS over the last gen for getting older stuff working. I suspect for just PS4 stuff it’ll be fine for most people.

 

The bigger lack of clarity for Sony has been save game compatibility. But my interpretation is that if you play a PS4 game on PS5 then your save will carry over. But if you get an upgrade to a PS5 version the save might not work in the new version.

 

In the end I think most will be fine and find stuff works okay. The debate over which does it better will rage.

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It’s important to me, to a point.
 

There’s a number of titles on Xbox 360 & PS3 I would love to be able to pick up and play whenever I wanted (Nintendo is covered by my Wii U). Unfortunately most of the 360 titles I would like to play aren’t in the BC program yet, and may never be. 

 

It has more of an importance to my son, who feels like every game should be available to him no matter the platform - all this switching between Xbox, PlayStation, Switch etc. with different controllers is in his eyes ridiculous and confusing.
 

Microsoft is going the right way, we’d be able to play the same games on PC/Xbox/xCloud with minimal fuss, but there’s a lot of gaps. Missing titles, lack of cross save, uneven libraries..

 

I’m waiting to see what Sony do, I personally like PS4 for the ‘experiences’ (VR & Steering Wheel), which work seamlessly (I know I could do this on PC, but there’s generally tinkering and sometimes problems) - if PS5 has full PS4 backwards compatibility and offers an updated VR experience it’ll be ‘good enough’, otherwise the PS4 stays and an Xbox will keep it company.

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I wonder if at some point in the not to distant future, the likes of Sony will have all old titles on the cloud somewhere and you just select a game and play it "in browser" as it were without having to download anything.

 

As for backwards compatibility, its one of those things that everyone wants, but doesn't ultimately use. PS4 didn't suffer too much without it.

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1 hour ago, dumpster said:

I mean, the not-great emulator exists (it's in the PS Classic, a completely different system), and the games all exist and would need licensing and rating.

 

Lazy Sony!

 

Emulators are incredibly difficult to write, although they did a nice job of it for the PSP. Perhaps PS1 games will be downloadable in the future? Or have they ruled it out?

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2 hours ago, layten said:

Sony have said that virtually all PS4 games will work on the PS5. What we don't currently know is how much it will enhance them XB style.


we can have a good guess...

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15 minutes ago, aeroflott said:

 

As for backwards compatibility, its one of those things that everyone wants, but doesn't ultimately use. PS4 didn't suffer too much without it.

 

I dunno, it's something I value and with a huge digital backlog/catalogue I can only see the importance of BC growing for me going forwards.

 

Also, the performance and visual improvements to 7th and 8th gen games that this gen will bring should not be underestimated, especially following a series of disappointing "remasters" that saw original BC versions outshine their supposedly superior re-releases.

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Half the time I think BC is more important than new games quite honestly.

 

I replay certain games all the time...doesn't stop me buying lots of new stuff, but the good games - the really good ones - I'll play multiple times through the years. Since probably the end of the PS2-era through to the current gen the quality of games is such that the ones I love never really seem to date much to my eyes.

 

Christ knows how many times I've run through the Mass Effect games for instance, or Half-Life 2.

 

It's great :D . I'm hopeful that the PS5 does the job nicely and allows me to run the multitude of games I've got in the digital world!

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Earlier this year I ran through half life 2 on the Xbox one. That was a pretty nice way of playing it. Being able to fire up Daytona was also nice. I’d say the thing I was most excited about playing on the series s was some old 360 arcade games!

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2 hours ago, dumpster said:

I don't see why a generic emulator can't be built in to the hardware.  I appreciate it's not of interest to many to play PS1 games on a Ps5, but you could surely add the facility easily enough, and if they stuck all the memorable games from the era on PSN for 99p each you'd surely make a profit on the service.  I'm sure many dads would love to show their kids what Gran Turismo was like "in my day".  I mean, the emulator exists (it's in the PS Classic), and the games all exist  it's surely a tiny amount of cost and effort to do it, surely 5 X 99p downloads and the service has paid for itself!

 

A lot of "surely" in here, most of which are things you're completely wrong about. Adding a decent Ps1 emulator isn't easy, and the Ps Classic existing is completely irrelevant, as that isn't a PS5. The PS5 is certainly powerful enough to emulate a PS1, but writing an emulator with decent compatibility would cost money, and probably take time which they could have their engineers using to do things that might actually make money and matter to their audience. I don't have any data, but I would suggest the fact that tonnes of PS1 games were available on PS3, PS Vita and PSP has already shown them that there's no market for this, and that the time and effort it takes is wasted from a financial perspective. 

 

The idea of selling them for 99p doesn't work, as it won't cover the cost of licensing them. Outside of GT, I don't think Sony own any of the big PS1 games that might sell. So they're having to license stuff which already puts the price well about 99p. They sold for between £5 and £10 on PS3, and I'm guessing they might be a bit more than that now, but even if you got it down to £5 nobody actually wants to pay that for an ugly, blurry 4:3 game. Plus the PS1 is where tonnes of major franchises started, and unless it's story based a lot of them basically do the same thing. If you want a racing sim, why would you want what passed for state of the art in 1997 instead of just buying the new GT? Same for Wipeout and Everybody's Golf. They're still making those games and they serve the exact same purpose, but they're not 25 years out of date.

 

Your estimates of the cost and the amount they'd need to sell are way off, and I also don't think there's a market for them. Most of the really good PS1 games have been remade or updated, and you'd be far better off helping to fund an MGS1 remake than wasting time and money building an emulator for games that nobody will actually play.

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7 minutes ago, Broker said:

 

A lot of "surely" in here, most of which are things you're completely wrong about. Adding a decent Ps1 emulator isn't easy, and the Ps Classic existing is completely irrelevant, as that isn't a PS5. The PS5 is certainly powerful enough to emulate a PS1, but writing an emulator with decent compatibility would cost money, and probably take time which they could have their engineers using to do things that might actually make money and matter to their audience. I don't have any data, but I would suggest the fact that tonnes of PS1 games were available on PS3, PS Vita and PSP has already shown them that there's no market for this, and that the time and effort it takes is wasted from a financial perspective. 

 

The idea of selling them for 99p doesn't work, as it won't cover the cost of licensing them. Outside of GT, I don't think Sony own any of the big PS1 games that might sell. So they're having to license stuff which already puts the price well about 99p. They sold for between £5 and £10 on PS3, and I'm guessing they might be a bit more than that now, but even if you got it down to £5 nobody actually wants to pay that for an ugly, blurry 4:3 game. Plus the PS1 is where tonnes of major franchises started, and unless it's story based a lot of them basically do the same thing. If you want a racing sim, why would you want what passed for state of the art in 1997 instead of just buying the new GT? Same for Wipeout and Everybody's Golf. They're still making those games and they serve the exact same purpose, but they're not 25 years out of date.

 

 

They also have to pay for every title to be re-certified for age ratings across all countries. Quite expensive each time but must be done as it's a new system so classed as a new release.

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Plus however many classic PS1 games have licensed music, which they'd need to pay for again. I'm sure there's more costs hidden around but you only need to play Crazy Taxi on any modern system to see how losing the music can destroy the nostalgia of playing a classic game.

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I don’t own a (still just about) current gen console, and haven’t used my 360 in about two years at a rough guess. However, I’m getting the itch to go for one of the upcoming consoles this time round. So, I guess the extent of backwards compatibility is less important to me as I have, at worst, an entire generation of games to choose from to backfill, whichever platform I go for. 

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2 hours ago, dumpster said:

I don't see why a generic emulator can't be built in to the hardware.  I appreciate it's not of interest to many to play PS1 games on a Ps5, but you could surely add the facility easily enough, and if they stuck all the memorable games from the era on PSN for 99p each you'd surely make a profit on the service.  I'm sure many dads would love to show their kids what Gran Turismo was like "in my day".  I mean, the emulator exists (it's in the PS Classic), and the games all exist  it's surely a tiny amount of cost and effort to do it, surely 5 X 99p downloads and the service has paid for itself!

 

They couldn't sell Gran Turismo on that service so that'd already be a fail but no, it'd cost a hell of a lot more than that even to port the PS Classic emu across and that's before having to test quite a lot of games they didn't test for the PS Classic.

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Technically there really is, but GT the problem is they would have to licence again all the cars AND the music.  It'd probably be cost prohibitive to even figure out who you'd licence some of the defunct ones FROM.

 

It's a shame though because on the face of it you're absolutely right.

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2 hours ago, aeroflott said:

I wonder if at some point in the not to distant future, the likes of Sony will have all old titles on the cloud somewhere and you just select a game and play it "in browser" as it were without having to download anything.

 

As for backwards compatibility, its one of those things that everyone wants, but doesn't ultimately use. PS4 didn't suffer too much without it.

I dunno. I’ve just started playing Divinity OS 2. That’s a game that’s two to three years old. It’s not noticeably aged, and is quite likely a lot better than anything coming out on Xbox Series X at launch.

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I have an S coming, primarily to be a Gamepass machine. I'll probably pick up a few other things here and there, but mostly Nintendo games will eat my real money and time. 

 

No backwards compatiblity in place, no populated gamepass, nothing for me to play, no sale at launch. 

 

I think people forget how dire console launches can be in terms of decent games. Release window brilliance, then sometimes a year gets written off. 

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On 04/10/2020 at 14:34, BossSaru said:

With each gen it feels that the differences are becoming smaller; diminishing returns as quality and fidelity plateau. I had no interest in playing PS1 games on my PS2, and aside from Halo, Ico and SotC not much from that gen to the to the PS3 and 360 generation.

 

But there are PS3 and 360 games that were perfectly good even a few years into the current gen (TLoU, Batman, Skyrim, RDR, GTA5, Mass Effect), and it was notable that these could not be played on the XB1 and PS4 until remakes and BC appeared later.

 

With each gen the gaps separating them decrease, and BC becomes more desirable - especially with improved frame rates and loading times on newer consoles.

 

This is the crux of it really. PS1/N64 era games, and I have fond memories of them, are definitely a product of their generation.  Ditto Snes and Nes are completely different to what you can buy and play now. 

 

If you saw one of those games now they can still be fun to play but you know it is not a modern game.  

 

PS2/Gamecube era games can still hold up really well too (the art style of Windwaker and Mario Sunshine keeps those games from looking like relics of their time) although the lack of HD and widescreen is a noticeable issue.  PS3/360 era onwards and there are still loads of games which hold up as properly great games and Xbox One X and, hopefully, Series X can apply on the fly improvements to these era games automatically. Playing Crackdown 1 on the Xbox One X was almost just as a much as a joy as the first time I played it on 360. 

 

Plus games from many eras with a tiny touch up still prove immensely playable. The recent, barebones, re-release of Mario 64 and Sunshine show what amazing things can be done with a lick of HD and a widescreen remaster. The 'remastered' Sunshine looks as good as many games released these days. And that it the other point, with more and more great low budget or indie titles being released, the level of graphics expected changes. Lonely Mountains is a cracking game but I wouldn't have said that it pushes the graphical limits of any console it was released on. It feels like we've hit a certain level and that developers can go as high tech or low tech as they want and as long as the gameplay is there then the game can be a winner. 

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On 06/10/2020 at 21:22, dumpster said:

Yes  I see what you all mean, must be more to it than meets the eye.  

 

 

It all eventually boils down to one simple thing, the almighty $$$.

 

People brag about emulators on PC, the only reason that works is because nobody is getting sued by somebody who feels like you owe them a cut (because people who use emulators are too small and numerous a target that's difficult to hit). If they could shut them down on PC, they would. It's usually never a technical feasibility problem blocking games from being added to official BC solutions, it's money.

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12 hours ago, mushashi said:

 

It all eventually boils down to one simple thing, the almighty $$$.

 

People brag about emulators on PC, the only reason that works is because nobody is getting sued by somebody who feels like you owe them a cut (because people who use emulators are too small and numerous a target that's difficult to hit.If they could shut them down on PC, they would. It's usually never a technical feasibility problem blocking games from being added to official BC solutions, it's money.


They’re little people, but there’s a lot of them?

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8 hours ago, JoeK said:


They’re little people, but there’s a lot of them?

 

It's impractical to go after and sue everybody using unauthorised emulators on the PC, just like any other things which people obtain via the internet without the copyright holders consent.

 

You can very easily go after a console manufacturer or company using your copyright and distributing it via an easily trackable distribution channel.

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