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Just seemed like tonight was never going to be our night. Missed two sitters, shit penalty and now another slice of VAR ridiculousness. 
 

Exactly the same as against Brighton. Don’t know how the fuck we’ve lost this game. 
 

Edit: Even Sky taking the piss

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After nearly three minutes of deliberation, it's decided by some hook or crook that Watkins' sleeve of his shirt was millimetres offside. 

 

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I heard Dion Dublin of all people talking about the current state of the game over the weekend.   He absolutely nailed it for me in pointing out that the one single thing which is the biggest hook in the game for any fan is that moment of absolute elation when your team manages to put the ball in the back of the net, and that moment the biggest high of the game is the very thing being targeted by questionable use of VAR.

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3 minutes ago, BabelRich said:

If it takes 3 minutes to decide an elbow is millimetres offside then it’s not ‘clear and obvious’

 

As far as the league is concerned offside is a binary issue and doesn't have to match the clear and obvious guideline. You are either onside or offside.

 

The problem is they've decided that offside has to be measured to a daft degree, when the game isn't really set up for the rule to be put in place to that extent. So we have this farcical situation of people stopping the game for stupid lengths of time to work out if a guy is a pube offside, which in reality means nothing, but because of a stupid take on the rules apparently means everything.

 

And even though the nature of technology means that a truly absolute objective idea of offside is impossible due to frame rates and resolutions.

 

They need to scrap the idea of offside being measured to this extent by VAR, or they need to change the rule. The current implementation is completely stupid. The rule is there to prevent goal hanging, it's not there to rule that an attackers bollock is offside and nobody wants the rule to be like that. 

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1 minute ago, Plissken said:

Yes, it’s not VAR’s fault the rule is binary.  (The problem follows that offside should be binary. So I have no idea how to fix that.)

You need to change where the 'line' is (i.e. the old daylight thing) or you need to change how VAR is applied to offside. I'd probably suggest that VAR needs to be rolled back if it's ability to rule on offside, such as scrapping the lines and measurement and having VAR either only offering a second opinion or only able to overrule in the rare cases that there is a truly obvious error on offside calls. Or perhaps building in a margin of error in VAR's measurement.

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26 minutes ago, spork said:

dc7vy57jw4261.jpg

 

No idea how it works in reality but it sounds like a decent solution at least.

We'd still have the same daft people running the tech so we'd still have arguments about where the lines are. I don't think there is any solution until technology can 100% record where all the players are on the pitch. I'm sure that's where the game will end up (probably not in my lifetime). 

It's not really in the true spirit of the original offside rule but this is where we seem to be going..

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Interesting bit from the Athletic argument looking at the merits or not of Klopp's whining about the early Sat KO (which BT pay over £9m a match for) - I never realised as a KO time it has more injuries than others

 

Spoiler

What does the turnaround actually entail?

A team playing a Champions League match on a Wednesday night will typically have Thursday as a recovery day. That leaves Friday free for a full squad session, albeit few managers will choose to train at intensity given the limited recovery time between the two fixtures. That was the case with Liverpool between the Atalanta and Brighton fixtures, with Klopp instead deciding to stage slower-paced tactical sessions on shape and set pieces. Teams will then travel on either the Friday night or the Saturday morning, depending on the location of the game.

Unsurprisingly, an early start on Saturday morning is guaranteed. Liverpool’s players met at 7.30am for their customary pre-match walk, returning to their hotel in Brighton for an unconventional breakfast of chicken and pasta at 9am.

Kicking off later in the day, at either 3pm, 5.30pm or at 8pm, therefore makes a sizable difference to preparations in terms of travel, training patterns and — perhaps most significantly — sleep. “If you play in the afternoon obviously the boys sleep longer and you can ask whoever you want, sleep is a big part in recovery,” Klopp commented last weekend.

Is it really that dangerous?

It is no surprise that Klopp and Lampard are vocal critics of the Saturday lunchtime kick-off when you consider that Liverpool and Chelsea have struggled particularly badly with injuries this season. The numbers also prove that the Saturday lunchtime kick-off is worse than most when it comes to injuries.

According to Premier Injuries, there have been 72 reported muscle injuries across 119 Premier League matches which have kicked off at 12.30pm on a Saturday. That amounts to one time-loss muscular injury (defined as lasting ten days or more and causing a player to miss at least one domestic league fixture) for every 147 minutes of competitive football played during the time slot.

By way of comparison, throughout the entire 2019-20 season, Premier League players averaged a time-loss muscular injury every 224 minutes. It is a considerable difference that Premier League medical teams are only too aware of.

Why are injuries more common?

Teams are more likely to sustain injuries early on a Saturday afternoon having played late on a Wednesday because players are not provided with enough recovery time between fixtures.

“It can take anywhere up to 72 hours to fully recover from a game, which helps explain why muscle injury rates are substantially higher when the interval between games is lower,” Dr. Joel Mason, a sports scientist at the University of Jena in Germany, tells The Athletic.

“This also leaves very limited opportunity to work on and top-up some injury-preventing capacities in training during the season, which can then potentially feed back into the injury risk down the track as the season progresses.”

How important is rest to recovery?

Several medical studies have reported that playing matches at night, travelling long distances and a congested schedule can all impact sporting performance. Matches after 8pm are said to influence sleep as the intensity of a game can make a human being more “wakeful” after a match, while a player may also have aches and pains. 

In addition, one sleep specialist told The Athletic that caffeine supplements have been used more frequently by players since football returned behind closed doors as a way of replicating the kick or adrenaline boost that may usually come from supporters in the stadium. Caffeine promotes muscle recovery but also disrupts sleep. Sleep is important for footballers as it reduces the risk of injury. In one study of high school athletes, it was found that individuals who slept less than eight hours per night on average were 70 per cent more likely to record an injury than those who slept more than seven hours. 

As such, an evening kick-off on a Wednesday night may impact on a player’s sleep and the short recovery time ahead of a lunchtime kick-off on a Saturday has the potential to increase a player’s personal risk of injury.

 

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11 hours ago, bradigor said:

That sounds a sensible away of doing it.

 

I guess the problem will be people will start bitching when there's 1 pixel clear between the lines, with some justification.

 

But it works for me.

 

The biggest problem for me with marginal calls is people assume the picture is god. But it isn't of course because it's from a 60fps video.  At 20mph there's 15cm/6in between frames if a player is running, and so any pause "At the moment the ball is kicked" will be an average of 7.5cm wrong.

 

We're seeing decisions given for a LOT less than 7.5cm.

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11 hours ago, spork said:

dc7vy57jw4261.jpg

 

No idea how it works in reality but it sounds like a decent solution at least.

 

This is a rare application of sense, as it addresses issues with resolution and frame rate by introducing a reasonable margin of error.

 

However, I remain unconvinced that we need anything more than someone reviewing footage by eye and looking for offsides from whatever camera angles are available. If you can't tell it's offside without drawing lines on the pitch, then either it's too close to be calling, or you have insufficient camera coverage to be employing VAR in the first place.

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Isn't the nub of this with offside that you either make it binary, like they are, and you tie yourself in knots with arguments about bits of the body and accuracy of lines.

 

Alternatively you introduce some fuzziness into the mix and you'll get inconsistency and interpretation coming into play. 

 

Good thread this, explains what they doing in Holland and how their approach has seen a good goal ruled out for offside, its a problematic are for sure.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Waggo said:

I heard Dion Dublin of all people talking about the current state of the game over the weekend.   He absolutely nailed it for me in pointing out that the one single thing which is the biggest hook in the game for any fan is that moment of absolute elation when your team manages to put the ball in the back of the net, and that moment the biggest high of the game is the very thing being targeted by questionable use of VAR.

 

Yep - VAR is brought in to reduce suspect decisions and injustices and instead reduces goals and excitment and increases suspect decisions and injustices to the extent that every game now appears to have at least 1 (or 2 or 6) referee/VAR talking points as opposed to 1 or 2 referee talking points for an entire round of games.

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31 minutes ago, Gotters said:

Isn't the nub of this with offside that you either make it binary, like they are, and you tie yourself in knots with arguments about bits of the body and accuracy of lines.

 

Alternatively you introduce some fuzziness into the mix and you'll get inconsistency and interpretation coming into play. 

 

So what it boils down to is a choice between a system with no common sense, and a system with no common sense...

 

In truth, I think binary offsides don't do much for the intent of the law, and are more problematic than the occasional incorrect but genuinely subjective call. A decent application of VAR would eliminate clear offsides, which itself would be an improvement over a non-VAR scenario. As with many things in life, the pursuit of perfection in this instance ends up detrimental to the game.

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VAR remains a great concept. Its application is utterly flawed. Nobody wants shirt sleeves to be offside, we just want actual offside players to be offside. Likewise, nobody wants every tiny contact investigated, we just want dirty bastards getting caught and punished.

 

My own solution for offside would be to change the rule so that if any part of the player is onside, then the whole player is onside. But, at the very least, the camera angle needs to change. If we're not seeing it from bird's-eye so that we have an absolute viewpoint, we need to be completely perpendicular. The angles used at the moment lead to the belief that the inside of a player's back foot can be closer to the goal than the outside of their front hip...

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21 minutes ago, CheekyLee said:

My own solution for offside would be to change the rule so that if any part of the player is onside, then the whole player is onside.

 

I'm not a fan of this at all. It just moves the complaint to the defending team instead of the attacking, where a perfectly good offside line in normal circumstances is rendered invalid because your right back's trailing arm overlaps with the heel of an attacker who's really a good yard offside by any common sense reading of the game.

 

It also doesn't solve the problem that is small margins being applied to players who aren't going to be able to work to that precision in a flowing match.

 

This is why I prefer a simple application where VAR looks at a few angles around the time the ball is played, without trying to draw precise lines. If the VAR official can't find a problem with that setup, then nobody on the pitch should be adjudged to have done anything wrong.

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41 minutes ago, CheekyLee said:

VAR remains a great concept. Its application is utterly flawed. Nobody wants shirt sleeves to be offside, we just want actual offside players to be offside. Likewise, nobody wants every tiny contact investigated, we just want dirty bastards getting caught and punished.

 

My own solution for offside would be to change the rule so that if any part of the player is onside, then the whole player is onside. But, at the very least, the camera angle needs to change. If we're not seeing it from bird's-eye so that we have an absolute viewpoint, we need to be completely perpendicular. The angles used at the moment lead to the belief that the inside of a player's back foot can be closer to the goal than the outside of their front hip...


Thats madness, at full stretch Crouch could be onside with 11’ of him offside....

 

Its fairly easy to solve, as we used to have if there is any doubt and we are having to get lines with mm in it you give the attacking player the advantage.

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