“SPOILER THREAD” - The Last Of Us Part 2

[Girth Certificate]

State of Jim. FFS

 

It actually would have been a pretty good* plot point if Abby had killed Joel because she'd been on the juice and was full of the roid rage. I've always assumed it was the reason that the humans and the locust went to war in the Gears games. Nobody gets as big as Marcus Phoenix natty.

 

*lying

 

 

 

 

[Vemsie]

Good, not too lenghty video that deserves more views. It deals with both the man babies and the point of the game.

 

 

 

[sid]

They should have done a ‘cause and effect’ style switcharoo on her going back into the hospital

 

possibly even a triple switch between joel, Ellie future returning and past doc rushing to operate on Ellie whilst running out of time

[Gigawatt]

Finished a couple of days ago, loved it, and also love the fact that it can be discussed in such detail here in an intelligent and reflective way. What a deep and engrossing story it has, even if there is some disagreement over the themes and motivations, and visually, aurally and mechanically it is way up there. 
 

One glaring problem though, how did Abby’s dad die when all I did was shoot his toe with an arrow?

 

Also, I went to Seattle Aquarium in March and the one in the game is way better than the real life version.

[Gringo]

Just finished this last night.  I went through a similar arc as lots of people have mentioned in this thread.  When I initially got to playing as Abby I was thinking, 'why is the game making me do this, I just want to get back to the theatre and kill her'.  By the time I got back I was entirely invested in her as a character.  As the story evolved and my emotions towards Abby changed I did still feel like I wanted to get back to the theatre as quickly as possible but this time I wanted to get back so Ellie and Abby might momentarily put aside their quests for murderous revenge to allow each other to talk and discuss their motivations.  'You caved Joel's head in with a golf club'. 'Joel cut my dads throat and destroyed the Fireflies'.   Ellie could explain her regret for some of her actions, like killing Mel, explain how her guilt about not being able to be sacrificed for a vaccine and her resentment towards Joel has led to this awful situation.  I know that's not really the world of TLOU but that was my motivation as I was playing.  I also felt a lot of Ellie's motivation was her own sense of guilt towards how she treated Joel after she found out about what really happened at the end of the first game.  Killing Abby was her penance to absolve her.

 

I share some of the reservations about the epilogue.  I understand the need for it to further explore the characters, their motivations and to allow the story room to come to it's conclusion but it did feel a bit tacked on to me.  I was however, really glad at the end that Ellie redeemed herself somewhat and let Abby and Lev go.  I didn't want to hit square so much that I didn't and Abby sprang up and killed me.  It was so tense when Abby's terror filled face was under the water as I genuinely didnt know if Naughty Dog were going to end on the bleakest of all outcomes.  The fight was truly grueling and I felt exhausted by the end of it.

 

It is an excellent game.  I am really glad I played it but I have to confess it is not something I am ever likely to return to.  It is just so grim in it's content.  The endless killing and murder is tough to take.  That said, one of my favourite moments in the game was when a bunch of Scars were hunting for me as Ellie.  The introduction to them had been such a shock and tension inducing sequence.  As the Scar got closer I decided the soft approach had to be abandoned.  I whipped out a petrol bomb and launched it.  It arced perfectly, landed right on her forehead and she instantly burst into flames and screams.  Reading that back it makes me sound like a sadist but in the context of the moment I felt entirely justified in enjoying the moment after what they had put me through.

 

In a game littered with poignant moments, the one that resonated the most with me was the destruction of Haven.  The truly depressing aspect of seeing humanity continue to bring death and destruction upon itself even when faced with a grave external threat.  It was an amazing set piece.

 

TL;DR Great game, would recommend, wouldn't play again.  Would play a third, hopefully without Ellie but if Ellie and Abby are best mates she's allowed.

[glb]

Finished today, having got through the 29 hours or so it took to complete in a little over a week. My investment waned a little at times, and felt there were a few too many flashbacks / narrative jumps, but even so enjoyed the second half and the shift in perspective that it offers.

 

I was bummed out during the final fight, and was surprised the game even went there. By that point, as the player, I had no interest in killing Abby (or Lev), so felt relief when Ellie finally gave up on her futile quest for revenge. Having to control that section was tough. Reflecting on it I would have been fine with a shorter, snappier cutscene or even just a controlled interaction to let Abby leave.

 

On the whole think Naughty Dog did a fine job with a sequel that didn’t really need making. I definitely felt an emotional ride that is rare within gaming narratives, and there are some great moments of both dark and light storytelling throughout.
 

Also kudos on the level of detail, both in the visuals and the audio, both of which are truly breathtaking at times. So much so that just exploring without combat would have been enjoyable; a tour mode similar to Assassin’s Creed’s recent entries would be a fun addition (albeit can just whack the game on very light and replay certain chapters)

 

After a few days I may go back and do just that. For now will go and read some reviews and post-game views. I tried listening to Giant Bomb’s spoilercast for some alternate perspectives but their own Abby is insufferable, so gave up on that sharpish.
 

Time to let the story sink in a bit and probably play a Lego game or something equally joyous.
 

PS - playing during a week of wet weather definitely enhanced the immersion. Walking home the other night I’m sure I saw a clicker at a window of an old building...

[Tempy]

On 17/07/2020 at 12:54, MardiganX said:

The 'what next' is a really interesting point. I played a good few hours of Ghost of Itsushima last night and whilst I really enjoyed it and its clearly an incredible game that I am going to love so much of its grand opening felt a little flat because it has very closely followed LoU2. 

 

Interesting reading this comment, as 8 months on I'm now in exactly the same boat. I completed LoU2 Friday night and last night (Sunday) I loaded up Ghost of Tsushima, which I was excited to play. Like LoU2 it's also a beautiful looking game in HDR on my OLED, but the opening story, the voice acting, the control of the character all felt really flat and although I played a good couple of hours, it just failed to pull me in. I'm sure Ghost is a fantastic game, but I think I need to take a break before jumping back into something else.

 

I was very late to the party with LoU. I originally had it on my slim PS3, but never played it much past the school. My son had come along and my gaming days took a back seat for a few years and I even sold my PS3. I eventually ended up picking up a PS4 Pro from a fellow forum member and had downloaded Remastered when it came to PS Plus fully intending to revisit it. So when my wife picked me up LoU2 for Christmas, I thought I'd better finally pull my finger out and crack on with part 1.

 

I've been fortunate to play through Part 1, the Left Behind DLC and Part 2 (spoiler free) for the first time in succession over the last few weeks and I'm firmly in the 'loved it' camp. What an absolutely incredible gaming experience. I was blown away by how good Part 1 looked in HDR and and Part 2 is simply stunning in places. I can't remember the last time I was so invested in a game. I couldn't wait to play it each night, but also didn't want it to end. I can't recall ever being so emotionally invested in a game before either. Even now after finishing it, I regularly find myself thinking about it. I'm actually quite gutted I've finished it. I've also been paying both scores on Spotify for the past couple of weeks 

 

TL;DR Both games are so bloody good, it's temporarily ruined gaming for me 

 

I don't really have anything insightful to add to this thread. I just wanted to share the love. It's been really enjoyable reading opinions on both sides in both this and the main thread. I really do hope they make another soon, even if not in that world.

[MardiganX]

All I would say @Tempy is push on with Ghost. Maybe not as furiously as LoU2 makes you want to play but slower, more appreciative of the relaxing pace compared to the almost relentless tension of LoU2  Ghost would have been GOTY for me last year if it wasn't for LoU2 and that was after being initially very underwhelmed by it, especially the very scripted opening. But when it opens up and you get to explore and learn your 'trade' its every bit as impressive as LoU2.

 

 

[Tempy]

I won’t give up on it @MardiganX I’m gonna take a little break, catch up on some telly as a palate cleanser and then settle back in to it properly.

 

I’ve been reading some early impressions in the Ghost thread, including your praise of it, so will give it a proper chance soon. I must admit, I did really enjoy what little combat I got to experience before switching it off and I realise that’s tip of the iceberg in terms of how you can level up.

[Alan Stock]

This randomly popped up in my Youtube Recommended - a tiny thing but amazing attention to detail. A bit spoilery so don't recommend watching unless you've played through at least two thirds of the game.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Looking forward to one day playing this again on PS5 and just taking my time to look at all the little details I missed the first time around.

[BubbleFish]

Just finished this for the first time. Played it on the PS5.

 

Utterly brilliant. The swap to Abby was initially an annoyance (I went in to this completely blind) and I struggled to understand why they wanted me to play this character. Then it clicked and I understood. By the time I was back in the aquarium I was completely torn between the two, if anything liking Abby more. 
 

I’ll post more another day because I’m genuinely still upset.

 

In the final stages I was begging Ellie to realise what she was doing was destroying her. The final fight scene was awful- genuinely upsetting as the little kid I saw in the first game was completely lost.

 

As I said, I deliberately ignored the game and the controversy when it was released. That said, after playing the game I can’t understand how anyone going through that could see it as anything but a stunning example of how you can deliver an emotionally intelligent, great game.

 

 

[grounded_dreams]

Just had a memory thing pop up on my phone from a photo I took exactly one year ago today.

Only feels like a few months I completed it,, as the emotions and the story arcs still feel so fresh and recent. Such an incredible game:

 

[Alex W.]

Spoiler

I just got a boat, and I'm just getting really sick of how much of an absolute piece of shit Ellie is. "We’re definitely taking their boat. It’s up to them if they want to get in our way."

 

In the specific, it never feels like it's shown how Ellie became this bitter, honestly stupid thug. On paper you're told why, but there's no character progression to it. Some time between prowling around that open-world Seattle section it just kind of switched on and now she just doesn't give a shit about anything except going off and killing someone who - based on the flashback - she understands was entirely justified in getting her own revenge against Joel.

 

And in the general, I am just absolutely sick of getting shot in the face by complete strangers yelling "THERE'S THE TRESPASSER!". It's not so much a damning indictment of humanity's tendency towards factionalism as a damning indictment of the limited creative possibilities of the AAA space and the contrivances needed to keep feeding you an army of targets. And I'm only here, only pushing through and killing and getting killed by these complete strangers I have no personal connection to, because of Ellie's dumb vendetta.

 

God, this would be better if it wasn't so long.

 

[JoeK]

1 hour ago, Alex W. said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I just got a boat, and I'm just getting really sick of how much of an absolute piece of shit Ellie is. "We’re definitely taking their boat. It’s up to them if they want to get in our way."

 

In the specific, it never feels like it's shown how Ellie became this bitter, honestly stupid thug. On paper you're told why, but there's no character progression to it. Some time between prowling around that open-world Seattle section it just kind of switched on and now she just doesn't give a shit about anything except going off and killing someone who - based on the flashback - she understands was entirely justified in getting her own revenge against Joel.

 

And in the general, I am just absolutely sick of getting shot in the face by complete strangers yelling "THERE'S THE TRESPASSER!". It's not so much a damning indictment of humanity's tendency towards factionalism as a damning indictment of the limited creative possibilities of the AAA space and the contrivances needed to keep feeding you an army of targets. And I'm only here, only pushing through and killing and getting killed by these complete strangers I have no personal connection to, because of Ellie's dumb vendetta.

 

God, this would be better if it wasn't so long.

 

I think they need to remove all the current characters out from any new game they do for the franchise really. I thought this at the end of the first, and the second did nothing to change my mind on it, despite it being a good game.

[yakumo]

 

[Tomdominer]

Christ, that video is painful. I realise that being a teenager is hard, but the way these kids seem to mix up their identity with the reception / result of a video game, and even go as far as to attempt to sway the opinion of subreddits and even faking death threats. 😐

[yakumo]

1 hour ago, Tomdominer said:

Christ, that video is painful. I realise that being a teenager is hard, but the way these kids seem to mix up their identity with the reception / result of a video game, and even go as far as to attempt to sway the opinion of subreddits and even faking death threats. 😐

These aren't teenagers but actually adults who are doing all this crazy shit over a video game

[Pelekophoros]

I'm still playing through this but I love how it addresses the very specific point of "just killing unlimited faceless goons"

 

By "love" I mean 

 

Spoiler

Oh god I killed Bear

 

[Mr Do 71]

Loved the bit in the underground station where you can set the Clickers against those WLF twats, while you watch the fun from a safe position.

[Mr Do 71]

RIP Bear.

[Girth Certificate]

Felt much worse about Bear than Jovial Fuckboi and Angry Mum-to-be 

[Mr Do 71]

Fuck that escape from that thing in the hospital, as I keep getting lost. 🥵

[Mr Do 71]

On 28/08/2021 at 08:17, Mr Do 71 said:

Fuck that escape from that thing in the hospital, as I keep getting lost. 🥵

Well I killed that thing thank god, I hate boss fights. I’m glad for those checkpoints.

[Alex W.]

I can see what they were aiming for story-wise but, oof, they really really whiffed it. Maybe without the 15 hours of slaughtering bystanders on the road,* or a bit more dramatisation of her revenge drive, that would’ve worked, but Ellie comes off as an absolute sociopath surrounded by enabling patsies or two-dimensional monsters. She gets no interesting personal conflict until Abby finds her at the 90% mark, her character doesn’t show any self-reflection or development until the closing moments. She’s like an angry toddler with an assault rifle and land mines.

 

Could’ve worked and read as meaningful if there hadn’t been so much of it.

 

Abby’s was a phenomenally nuanced war/revenge story that would’ve been a great reflection of Ellie’s if the latter was just the slightest bit textured. 10/10 for that.

 

I almost laughed at Ellie’s “revenge… bad?” face at the finale.

 

*If you needed the switcheroo to feel bad for the militiamen you were killing left and right on a revenge mission that had nothing to do with them, then I worry.

[BitterToad]

On 10/08/2022 at 17:56, Alex W. said:

I can see what they were aiming for story-wise but, oof, they really really whiffed it. Maybe without the 15 hours of slaughtering bystanders on the road,* or a bit more dramatisation of her revenge drive, that would’ve worked, but Ellie comes off as an absolute sociopath surrounded by enabling patsies or two-dimensional monsters. She gets no interesting personal conflict until Abby finds her at the 90% mark, her character doesn’t show any self-reflection or development until the closing moments. She’s like an angry toddler with an assault rifle and land mines.

 

Could’ve worked and read as meaningful if there hadn’t been so much of it.

 

Abby’s was a phenomenally nuanced war/revenge story that would’ve been a great reflection of Ellie’s if the latter was just the slightest bit textured. 10/10 for that.

 

I almost laughed at Ellie’s “revenge… bad?” face at the finale.

 

*If you needed the switcheroo to feel bad for the militiamen you were killing left and right on a revenge mission that had nothing to do with them, then I worry.

 

I think it's very easy to say you're mad/awful/deranged if you side with Ellie but I also think the game says something interesting about how we control protagonists in video games. Naughty Dog games have always had this mad narrative dissonance (crash bandicoot seems like a nice guy but he's just mercilessly killing crabs!!! Alright maybe not always...) and there's an argument that TLOU2 is Narrative Dissonance: The Game. 

Spoiler

I sided with Ellie pretty much all the way through my first play through of TLOU2. Because I really really really liked Joel. And I was sad and angry that Joel had died and there was a lockdown on and I played a lot of her section of the game pretty much in three or four sittings over a few days because of this. I was sad that the character I liked had died and wanted to get revenge on the people that had killed him. Years of playing video games and doing the thing the people I am controlling want to do had conditioned me into agreeing with my protagonist without thinking about the bigger picture: that she's a baddie. And they'd made their awful sociopath simulator a lot more fun than the first game with emergent on/off stealth and C4 and guiding enemies into mines and shit. There was this relentless momentum of "fun + emotion = keep going" that kept me locked in. 

 

The switch to Abbey not only jolted me because I was playing as the person I and the other character I liked wanted to get revenge on. It also took away some of the more fun toys and replaced them with not as fun ones (IMO). This is something I initially criticised the game for and I'm almost certainly reading too much into it but there's definitely an interesting angle in "when you're playing as the person you're supposed to sympathise with more the killing is less fun." 

 

I don't know... The Last of Us 2 is a big complex thing with loads going on, and maybe I was right at first in that it made me sad that I had to play as people I liked doing things I didn't and that was a negative against the game. But maybe, and it's a big maybe, maybe Naughty Dog were being a bit cleverer than I initially gave them credit for and they were actually saying something about the way we react to "protagonists" in media. 

 

[Alex W.]

It would have worked if the game’s default mode wasn’t “killing is bad and ceaselessly brutal”. It was carried over from the first game and very explicitly intensified (lots more “DAVE NO”, touching letters and close-ups on your victims’ faces as the life leaves their eyes). It was a perfect approach to the first game but it works against framing Ellie‘s journey as a heroic revenge fantasy rather than a psychopathic one.

 

What’s funny is that if you take out the actual gameplay, it does read heroic. Ellie only kills a few people in self-defence or as tragic accidents on the road to face off against her true nemesis, Abby. But that’s not the game we got. It’s 15 hours of being rather crudely pushed in to stabbing your way through bystanders while Ellie mutters about how they got what was coming to them.

 

Like I say, I can see what they were going for but they completely fucked up the execution.

 

Edit - I keep coming back to the bystanders because it’s narratively, rather than ludonarratively, the greatest issue. The story acts like it’s grappling with the impact of Ellie’s revenge journey on her friends, while disregarding its impact on a bunch of people she has no actual quarrel with. And that disregard - the way it acts like it’s not even happening - accidentally makes Ellie and her friends seem like complete monsters.
 

They didn’t even have the good sense to give her some “point of no return” where the slippery slope of her journey traps her in to this cycle of violence. It’s a story where she could literally decide the cost’s too high and turn back at the twentieth or thirtieth strangled Wolf or Seraphite, instead of after one dead friend and a lost fight.

[df0]

I think you give Ellie's mental health too much credit. Where in TLOU2 does she come across like rational and sane? She's hellbent on revenge. There's moments where she's taken back a little by what she did - killing an unbeknownst to her pregnant woman - but before you know it she's back on that rollercoaster to hell.

[Alex W.]

That’s what I mean about them needing to dramatise her revenge drive earlier. Because they don’t really play that “PTSD” card until the last act, and the first part of her revenge mission is so full of youthful bonding and whistful flashbacks, it doesn’t read as a wounded person driven to desperation. It reads as cooly premeditated carnage and her damage, weirdly, as a post-hoc rationalisation.

[df0]

Hmm, I can see where you come from. I honestly can't remember Ellie's proverbial breaking point apart from that scene but as you pointed out Ellie's rather cool during the whole snowball fight etc. That said, I don't think she ever had vengeance not on her mind.

[Alex W.]

I guess it’s a bit hyperbolic for me to worry about people not getting the monstrousness of the revenge mission from Ellie’s POV alone. I can see how that sort of “killing bad” gameplay texture has become such a default style that it probably doesn’t register the same way it used to.