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“SPOILER THREAD” - The Last Of Us Part 2


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2 hours ago, Opinionated Ham Scarecrow said:

 

But this just highlights Joel's selfishness even more. Despite Ellie's wishes, he'd still force her to stay in his life as fake Sarah.

 

I love Joel, but he's still a piece of shit at the same time. That's the dichotomous dilemma.


That’s not evidence of him being a piece of shit, that’s evidence of him being human.  It’s not black and white whether a person’s good or bad.  Even decent people can’t always put their feelings aside and do the objectively right thing.  

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The more I ponder it, I think the game should have ended the morning after Tommy visits Ellie and Dina. Ellie gets up that night, plays her guitar. Dina wakes up next morning, Ellie and the map are gone. Then the scene with Joel on the porch. Roll credits.

 

It's more ambiguous and open to interpretation, but still says everything that needs to be said, much like the original. It's also a better sequel hook, should they decide to go down that route. They really didn't need Santa Barbera.

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On 01/07/2020 at 17:23, Opinionated Ham Scarecrow said:

 

Ultimately Joel isn't Ellie's parent though, and his paternal lording over her seems less and less wanted as she grows up. Ellie is purposely trying to distance herself from him at points in the game, whilst still clearly acknowledging that she owes him her life (and even this is a sore point). 

 

She is fully aware that she is a projection of Joel's lost daughter and that whatever love they have is a fantasy built on lies as much as shared experiences, but as the Dino park flashback shows, she did learn to love him back despite his obsession with her and even appreciates his constant efforts to make her happy in a world that is far from it.

 

There's that point in the first game where Joel tries to pass responsibility for Ellie over to Tommy because he knows he is getting too close to her, but ultimately bottles it and just goes full on all in dead daughter replacement. He always needed her more than she needed him and Ellie's need for revenge is fuelled by a sense of having to repay a debt and guilt for pushing back so much as much as any real father daughter love. 

 

The real love of a parent story here is Abbie's. The Ellie Joel tale is much more complicated imo.


That’s an interesting interpretation.  I saw Ellie’s need for revenge coming from a place of love, particularly painful as it was also a place of renewed hope for the future (the forgiveness) that was taken away just as it started.  I didn’t see it being about debt at all (she’s saved his life multiple times, literally and figuratively, anyway).

 

I feel like we played a different The Last of Us.  In the game I played Ellie was clearly starting to love Joel, that’s why him almost handing her over to Tommy her hurt so much.  Everything else you’ve described above (such as “his paternal lording over her seems less and less wanted as she grows up”) could go for most child parent relationships I think.

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Ellie is such a dick at the end I would not have been bothered by Abby killing her. Yeah I did not expect to come to that given everything that had gone before in the previous game. When she puts the knife to Lev's throat my response is fuck you that is a dick move.

 

I was almost expecting Lev to somehow off her while she was drowning Abby.

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7 minutes ago, Down by Law said:

If it ended there you would never know the fate of Abby and Lev though?

 

We know they safely got out of Seattle, that's their ending. You don't need to literally see them setting off into the sunset.

 

I mentioned this is the other thread, but Abby deciding to seek out the Fireflies is such a weird 180 for her. Earlier in the game she says in no uncertain terms that she'd rather travel in the opposite direction to them, and she's also clearly disillusioned with the WLF.

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2 minutes ago, mexos said:

Ellie is such a dick at the end I would not have been bothered by Abby killing her. Yeah I did not expect to come to that given everything that had gone before in the previous game. When she puts the knife to Lev's throat my response is fuck you that is a dick move.

 

I was almost expecting Lev to somehow off her while she was drowning Abby.


I don’t get why people are so much harsher on Ellie than Abby.  What about Abby with the knife to Dina’s throat?  What about the “good”?  What about the torturing Joel?  What about being willing to torture other people to get them to tell her where Joel is?  Seems to me the point is they mirror each other due to their lust for revenge.

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Maybe. Probably because I am disappointed in Ellie and that she went down this road. And we've just had 15 hours of humanising Abby. By the end my feelings about Abby are their most positive while the opposite is true for Ellie. When I first played as Abby, again my attitude was fuck you. I wanted her dead and killed her many times.

 

Joel dying (for me, I play these games slow) was 35 hours of gameplay ago. Just saying what I felt at the time, where I was with the fight. As you say if you balance it out there is not much in it but it's interesting to me that this was my reaction right there and then. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Down by Law said:

If it ended there you would never know the fate of Abby and Lev though?

 

Did everyone demand to know what happens to Han Solo at the end of Empire Strikes Back in 1980? Not everything needs answers right now. That's what sequels (or DLC ;)) is for.

 

Plus you still don't know their fate. We know they've gone to a Firefly base maybe? Who's there? Is it a trick? Etc, etc.

 

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ND confirmed there is no story expansion planned for this, only factions.

 

Ellie sparing Abby redeems the character so she isn't just a horrible piece of shit.

 

Abby and Lev leaving in a near death state is still open ended. I thought finding her emancipated and strung up really horrific. Not to mention it also felt like a massive fuck you to people who can't deal with her physique, like here you go, you think this is better do you? 

 

Also the assault on the Rattler base is a really excellent gameplay-wise and the sun soaked environment really striking from three days of torrential ran. Even the clickers had sunburn !

 

Having Ellie grab the map then credits sounds like Halo 2 all over again IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

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How would people here have felt if they were in control of Abby when she's practicing her golfing technique on Joel's bonce? Would you press square at that point or take the game back for a refund?

 

Square > Thwack! Arggh!

 

Square > Crunch! Urggh!

 

Square > Splat! *Gurgle*

 

Square > Splodge! ...*Silence*

 

...*Silence*...

 

Square > Smoosh! Arggh!

 

Etc.

 

Surprised Naughty Dog didn't go all out considering. I wonder if they contemplated it?

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I mentioned this in another thread, but did the end of the game really remind anyone else of the final episode of Breaking Bad?

 

(BB spoilers)

Spoiler

It's been about four years since I watched it, but both this and BB both feature a morally-ambiguous protagonist liberating the emaciated husk of a person they once despised from depraved biker gangs. The setting and adobe-style houses gave me strong BB vibes as well.

 

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I must admit, it makes me really sad reading metacritic user reviews and reddit comments on this game. 90% of them didn't even give it a chance once they knew Joel died, or discovered LGBTQ/Anti-religion 'agendas'. It saddens me that this game won't get the credit it truly deserves because people are... twats.

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4 minutes ago, Gabzy said:

I must admit, it makes me really sad reading metacritic user reviews and reddit comments on this game. 90% of them didn't even give it a chance once they knew Joel died, or discovered LGBTQ/Anti-religion 'agendas'. It saddens me that this game won't get the credit it truly deserves because people are... twats.

 

I don't think that's true. Isn't it the fastest selling PS4 exclusive ever, and one of the most acclaimed? Twats are twats, sure, but they don't seem to have done anything to stem the success of the game.

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4 minutes ago, Jamie John said:

 

I don't think that's true. Isn't it the fastest selling PS4 exclusive ever, and one of the most acclaimed? Twats are twats, sure, but they don't seem to have done anything to stem the success of the game.

Yeah I guess. It just disappoints me in general, I searched for a LoU2 sub-reddit yesterday hoping to find like-minded people to discuss the game with but it quickly became apparent there was no point. Maybe I should've known better.

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17 minutes ago, Gabzy said:

I searched for a LoU2 sub-reddit yesterday hoping to find like-minded people to discuss the game with

 

We're chopped liver, lads. ;)

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22 minutes ago, Gabzy said:

Yeah I guess. It just disappoints me in general, I searched for a LoU2 sub-reddit yesterday hoping to find like-minded people to discuss the game with but it quickly became apparent there was no point. Maybe I should've known better.

 

Mate, that way lies madness. Don't wste your time.

 

I really think that Metacritic and the like should be obliged to not show user reviews for games that have obviously been targeted by idiots, or at least put it behind a banner or something that says 'We have reason to believe these reviews are not based on users who have actually played the game', or words to that effect, at least.

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11 minutes ago, Broker said:


It’s sold amazingly. As usual, angry little men review bombing things and threatening to boycott them means literally nothing. Millions of people are playing a triple A game with LGBT and trans representation in it, and nobody can ever say that stuff will stop your game from selling again. If the loss is that people crazy enough to actually trust user reviews miss out on the story, it’s a tiny price to pay. It will win all the awards, and there’s no danger at all that it won’t be recognised by anyone other than bigoted cunts who would’ve hated it on principle from the start. This is a massive win for progressive themes in major games.

You're right, Broker. I'm over it! Fuck'em.

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Reading this topic it seems I was the only person rooting for Ellie and thought Joel's actions were justified. 

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11 minutes ago, Ry said:

Reading this topic it seems I was the only person rooting for Ellie and thought Joel's actions were justified. 

Not at all, I agree. It may have been 'the wrong' thing to do, but who wouldn't faced with the same decision?

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51 minutes ago, Ry said:

Reading this topic it seems I was the only person rooting for Ellie and thought Joel's actions were justified. 


I don’t think Joel’s actions are justified, but I’d probably gut a hundred people to keep my kid alive. 

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Justified? Absolutely not.

 

Completely understandable, relatable and for most people the only option. Fuck yes!

 

Joel failed to protect Sarah. He had to hold her in his arms as she slipped away and could do nothing about it. The Lord gave him a second chance (love that and will never tire of using it) at that moment and he done the only thing he possibly could. That is again why that line and that scene on the porch is for me the most important across both games, even eclipsing the incredible final moments of the first game. Joel has already lived through what would happen if he had let Ellie die. He would sooner watch the world continue to burn than let it happen again. To quote the great philosopher Tommy Miller... "I cant say i'd've done different"

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3 hours ago, Trigg said:

 

Well worth a watch. 


Just came here to post this, it’s brilliant. 
 

“A historic moment in videogames. When a developer presented the player with a challenge that could not be overcome with a controller.”

 

”There is no difficulty setting in-game or in life to make forgiving someone easier”. 
 

Bravo.

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Finished! Wow, by some distance that was the most compelling story I've ever experienced in a game and to be honest, it would run many films close.

 

There's a lot to say, (much of which has already been said, this is a genuinely excellent thread with a lot of well explained thoughts) but the burning question I'm left with after finishing the game is... how did Ellie survive?

 

Sorry if this is old ground (I did skim the first seven pages) but after the beach fight finished with Ellie sat in the water, I just assumed she was about to take her final gasps. The screen goes black and we see Ellie's hand above the wheat and I immediately got Gladiator vibes and just assumed we were now in the pre-death dream sequence!

 

Ellie had a massive wound on her side. At one point she raises her top to reveal that whilst she has sewn the wound up, it is clearly infected. Even the Rattler who initially captured her, commented that she'd maybe live long enough to reach Abby.

 

I'm genuinely thrown to discover that the epilogue is no dream sequence and we're just supposed to assume that Ellie picked herself up, found antibiotics and merrily made her way home with no explanation of how she avoided what looked like her impending death.

 

I don't know if I've missed something here or it's just not seen as being a particularly egregious narrative slip.

 

I was absolutely convinced that the finale was going to see Abby reunite with the Fireflies, where Ellie would catch up to her and (after an appropriate confrontation) she would willingly sacrifice herself to help the new medical team find a cure. Closing the loop on both Ellie and Abby's story.

 

A part of me is relieved they didn't go down that route, as it would have felt rather contrived, but as soon as I saw Ellie wake up on the farm and get up only to be confronted by Dina, I was convinced that's where they were headed with it and soft as it is, I was imploring her under my breath not to go.

 

Anyway, still processing it all to be honest, but it was an amazing ride. Easily the most invested I've been in a game for years, possibly ever and whatever misgivings I may have around pacing and difficulty spikes, they really are as nothing when I think of the experience I've just had.

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