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“SPOILER THREAD” - The Last Of Us Part 2

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6 hours ago, AI1 said:

It is also pretty clearly set up to be a trilogy and this is the Empire Strikes Back of the three where it's heavier going and all hope is lost, etc.

 

Do you mean to imply you think a part 3, if there is one, will have a happy ending, relatively speaking?  I wouldn't be so sure, personally.  I don't see them destroying the emperor/curing humanity at the end of it.  I think ND loves their emotionally ambiguous endings, and who can blame them?  They're amazing :D

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5 hours ago, Stanley said:

That’s definitely why they do it, it just pushes it to further and further extremes, to the point where the rattlers seemed to have reached new levels of depravity. It’s like, please just stop. 

 

Taking people as slaves (and the horrible treatment associated with it) isn't really a new level of depravity, unfortunately.  It goes back to the beginning of recorded history I think.  I actually find that group all too believable :(

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9 minutes ago, hushnecampus said:

 

Which one's the porch scene?  (If anybody answers "the scene on the porch" I'll kill their dog :P)

 

Where Joel's drinking his Coffee and Ellie forgives him for taking her from the Hospital and they agree to try and move on.

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The scene where Joel dies at the hands of Abby was so powerful I'm still feeling it right now.

 

It would be too easy to think Joel was the bad guy for choosing Ellie over a cure for humanity, but you can sympathise with him having lost his daughter early in the first game. [the tender moments between he and Ellie showed the bond between the two]

 

It was heartbreaking too, to see both Abby and Ellie, bruised and tired at the end. Both wanting a cure that would never happen. [Fighting to find resolve, for the actions of one man]

 

In the last act, the new faction (I forget their name) shows humans are grotesque by nature and not worth saving.

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34 minutes ago, Down by Law said:

 

Where Joel's drinking his Coffee and Ellie forgives him for taking her from the Hospital and they agree to try and move on.

 

Yes all that but the most important part is what Joel says after a long pause... "If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again".

 

That absolute, deep rooted feeling that even though he knows how much it has hurt Ellie and what that means he has no regrets. That single moment for me was the most powerful in the entire story. The night before he was murdered he told Ellie that he would do it all again. That his love for her and keeping her in his life was more important than anything in the world. The weight that adds to what then plays out is just :wub:

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1 hour ago, hushnecampus said:

 

Taking people as slaves (and the horrible treatment associated with it) isn't really a new level of depravity, unfortunately.  It goes back to the beginning of recorded history I think.  I actually find that group all too believable :(

In the context of the game they’re about the worst we’ve seen. 

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12 minutes ago, Stanley said:

In the context of the game they’re about the worst we’ve seen. 

 

image.png.85da7e728ce2c26d072bd6720c09d979.png

 

Hold my cleaver.

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True, he wasn’t so pleasant either, but crucifying captives is pretty bad. 

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I finished this in the early hours of this morning, having played 2-3 hours per night since release. I was fortunate enough to be able to avoid all of the leaks/spoilers, and only ever watched the very first trailer, so it was all completely fresh to me.

 

I loved it.

 

I had a slight wobble with the repetitive scavenging about 10 hours in, but it quickly turned things around and was an absolute roller-coaster ride from then on.  

 

The stand-out section for me was the bridge sequence with Abby and Lev (not sure if I'm spelling that correctly).  Climbing the tower, across the bridge, down the other side ("Fuck this building!"), etc.  Just so well made, and absolutely thrilling from start to finish.  There were so many great moments though.  Fuck... making your way through Haven.  I don't remember experiencing anything like that in a game before.

 

Now I'm going to read some stuff (like, this entire thread, for example) and watch some videos.  

 

Oh, and I know we don't really need to choose sides, but Team Abby all the way.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Stanley said:

True, he wasn’t so pleasant either, but crucifying captives is pretty bad. 

 

Personally I would rather deal with Rattlers than a David that spends hours being your best mate to then lock you up and prepare to eat you. At least the Rattlers are just horrible from the outset :D

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47 minutes ago, MardiganX said:

 

Yes all that but the most important part is what Joel says after a long pause... "If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again".

 

That absolute, deep rooted feeling that even though he knows how much it has hurt Ellie and what that means he has no regrets. That single moment for me was the most powerful in the entire story. The night before he was murdered he told Ellie that he would do it all again. That his love for her and keeping her in his life was more important than anything in the world. The weight that adds to what then plays out is just :wub:

 

But this just highlights Joel's selfishness even more. Despite Ellie's wishes, he'd still force her to stay in his life as fake Sarah.

 

I love Joel, but he's still a piece of shit at the same time. That's the dichotomous dilemma.

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10 minutes ago, catinthehat said:

I finished this in the early hours of this morning, having played 2-3 hours per night since release. I was fortunate enough to be able to avoid all of the leaks/spoilers, and only ever watched the very first trailer, so it was all completely fresh to me.

 

I loved it.

 

I had a slight wobble with the repetitive scavenging about 10 hours in, but it quickly turned things around and was an absolute roller-coaster ride from then on.  

 

The stand-out section for me was the bridge sequence with Abby and Lev (not sure if I'm spelling that correctly).  Climbing the tower, across the bridge, down the other side ("Fuck this building!"), etc.  Just so well made, and absolutely thrilling from start to finish.  There were so many great moments though.  Fuck... making your way through Haven.  I don't remember experiencing anything like that in a game before.

 

Now I'm going to read some stuff (like, this entire thread, for example) and watch some videos.  

 

Oh, and I know we don't really need to choose sides, but Team Abby all the way.  

 

Team Lev. 

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1 hour ago, Down by Law said:

 

Where Joel's drinking his Coffee and Ellie forgives him for taking her from the Hospital and they agree to try and move on.

 

That's the one.  :wub:

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Re. the final scene between Ellie and Joel, right at the end of the game, was that supposed to be the night before Ellie wakes up at the start? Because I thought the last time she saw him alive was when she said 'What the fuck is wrong with you?' after he pushes that guy Seth for calling her and Dina dykes, unless the conversation with Joel is after that event.

 

I think the conversation with Joel happened on an earlier evening, and part of the reason she feels so bad about Joel dying is because the last time they spoke she was horrible to him.

 

I could be misremembering, though.

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5 minutes ago, Jamie John said:

Re. the final scene between Ellie and Joel, right at the end of the game, was that supposed to be the night before Ellie wakes up at the start? Because I thought the last time she saw him alive was when she said 'What the fuck is wrong with you?' after he pushes that guy Seth for calling her and Dina dykes, unless the conversation with Joel is after that event.

 

I think the conversation with Joel happened on an earlier evening, and part of the reason she feels so bad about Joel dying is because the last time they spoke she was horrible to him.

 

I could be misremembering, though.

You are misremembering - which is understandable, given how much the story jumps around - as Ellie references the incident with Seth during this conversation, so it is the night before Joel's death. In its chronological setting, Ellie starting to forgive Joel is what sparks her quest for revenge on Abby. When we see it, the same comments are what allows her to spare Abby. Combined with the comment above about Joel doing it all again, it's a devastating scene that the whole story hangs off, and it also more than justifies the game's use of flashbacks throughout.

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6 minutes ago, Opinionated Ham Scarecrow said:

 

But this just highlights Joel's selfishness even more. Despite Ellie's wishes, he'd still force her to stay in his life as fake Sarah.

 

I love Joel, but he's still a piece of shit at the same time. That's the dichotomous dilemma.

 

Tommy tells Joel he doesn't know he would do any different. Abby's Dad (Cant remember his name) doesn't answer Firefly gaffer (Cant remember her name) when she asks if he would sacrifice Abby and its clear from the fantastic facial animation that when Abby tells him that she would want him to do it he is like 'gies peace, no chance that's happening'.

 

Yes Joel is ultimately selfish and the porch scene reinforces it but could you honestly say you would do any different? That is the question both games asks you as the player through Joel's story and as I said when I completed my re-play a few weeks ago... I would have shot Tommy in the face if he tried to stop me in the hospital!

 

 

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6 minutes ago, LongHairStu said:

You are misremembering - which is understandable, given how much the story jumps around - as Ellie references the incident with Seth during this conversation, so it is the night before Joel's death. In its chronological setting, Ellie starting to forgive Joel is what sparks her quest for revenge on Abby. When we see it, the same comments are what allows her to spare Abby. Combined with the comment above about Joel doing it all again, it's a devastating scene that the whole story hangs off, and it also more than justifies the game's use of flashbacks throughout.

 

:wub:

 

That fucking scene. Its so simple, so subtle but the power it has and what it means. Fuck!! Up until that point we believe Joel died with his relationship with Ellie completely broken and as a result he would be to, but it reveals that in his final moments he was once again given all he ever wanted... for her to be in his life.

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6 minutes ago, MardiganX said:

 

:wub:

 

That fucking scene. Its so simple, so subtle but the power it has and what it means. Fuck!! Up until that point we believe Joel died with his relationship with Ellie completely broken and as a result he would be to, but it reveals that in his final moments he was once again given all he ever wanted... for her to be in his life.

 

Jesus.. Have some mercy man, you bring me to my knees... 

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5 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

Jesus.. Have some mercy man, you bring me to my knees... 

 

Its taking a lot of will power to hold off watching the scene again until I hit it on my second play through :( but I want it to ruin me again like it did over the weekend.

 

Even when he tells Ellie that Dina would be lucky to have her. The way he says it, with the conviction of someone that believes those words in his soul. I'm not trying to lay heavy on the emotional haymakers that are there for everyone to see, but questioning Joel's actions and boiling them down to him simply being selfish? Sorry but nope :)

 

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Joel’s last thought was seeing Ellie pinned to the ground and thinking yeah, her and Tommy gonna get got, everything he did was for nothing. Mans had what was coming to him and the irony and final punishment for him is he wouldn’t have factored in the humanity of the Wolves in letting Ellie and Tommy go because he wouldn’t have/didn’t do the same thing.

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23 minutes ago, mikeyl said:

he wouldn’t have factored in the humanity of the Wolves in letting Ellie and Tommy go because he wouldn’t have/didn’t do the same thing.

 

Yikes... This is true.

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1 hour ago, LongHairStu said:

You are misremembering - which is understandable, given how much the story jumps around - as Ellie references the incident with Seth during this conversation, so it is the night before Joel's death. In its chronological setting, Ellie starting to forgive Joel is what sparks her quest for revenge on Abby. When we see it, the same comments are what allows her to spare Abby. Combined with the comment above about Joel doing it all again, it's a devastating scene that the whole story hangs off, and it also more than justifies the game's use of flashbacks throughout.

 

The conversation Ellie and Joel have must have taken place on the same night as when he pushed Seth, though, because when she wakes up the next day, and you assume control of her, she goes to see Seth, who apologises about his behaviour the night before, then goes off with Dina. Ellie doesn't return to Jackson again until after Joel has died and we see her by his grave.

 

I guess she must have gone to see Joel after storming out of the dance with Dina. That's the last time she saw him. When she wakes up the next day she's under the player's control.

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55 minutes ago, MardiganX said:

 

Tommy tells Joel he doesn't know he would do any different. Abby's Dad (Cant remember his name) doesn't answer Firefly gaffer (Cant remember her name) when she asks if he would sacrifice Abby and its clear from the fantastic facial animation that when Abby tells him that she would want him to do it he is like 'gies peace, no chance that's happening'.

 

Yes Joel is ultimately selfish and the porch scene reinforces it but could you honestly say you would do any different? That is the question both games asks you as the player through Joel's story and as I said when I completed my re-play a few weeks ago... I would have shot Tommy in the face if he tried to stop me in the hospital!

 

 

Yeah spot on, the whole story of Parts I&II hang off the same powerful thing, which is the love of a parent. If Joel had chosen not to save Ellie he’d have being acting against all that is human and all that is love, Ellie does not understand those feelings, but she trusts Joel, and trusts that they came from the right place, enough to try and forgive him. 

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52 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

Jesus.. Have some mercy man, you bring me to my knees... 

 

It suddenly got very dusty in my living room too.

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13 minutes ago, Jamie John said:

 

The conversation Ellie and Joel have must have taken place on the same night as when he pushed Seth, though, because when she wakes up the next day, and you assume control of her, she goes to see Seth, who apologises about his behaviour the night before, then goes off with Dina. Ellie doesn't return to Jackson again until after Joel has died and we see her by his grave.

 

I guess she must have gone to see Joel after storming out of the dance with Dina. That's the last time she saw him. When she wakes up the next day she's under the player's control.

 

Exactly this.

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1 hour ago, mikeyl said:

Joel’s last thought was seeing Ellie pinned to the ground and thinking yeah, her and Tommy gonna get got, everything he did was for nothing. Mans had what was coming to him and the irony and final punishment for him is he wouldn’t have factored in the humanity of the Wolves in letting Ellie and Tommy go because he wouldn’t have/didn’t do the same thing.

 

That's a very callous way of looking at it but can't disagree. Joel is ultimately punished for what he did and while that final punishment was probably more than he ever expected or deserved, its the exact thoughts you describe that are vital to the Wolves story. On multiple occasions several of them say they regret not killing Ellie and Tommy and so unlike Joel if somehow the Lord gave them a second chance at that moment they would have done exactly what Joel probably expected them to do.

 

Joel had no regrets and deep down probably took every moment he had with Ellie as a gift not giving a single fuck about anything outside of her. Yes, his final image and thoughts would have been horrific, which in spite of his love for Ellie he probably deserved but its the lack of regrets Joel has compared to the multiple regrets the Wolves have that makes what happens to them so important for both Ellie and Abby stories.

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5 hours ago, Stanley said:

Yeah spot on, the whole story of Parts I&II hang off the same powerful thing, which is the love of a parent. If Joel had chosen not to save Ellie he’d have being acting against all that is human and all that is love, Ellie does not understand those feelings, but she trusts Joel, and trusts that they came from the right place, enough to try and forgive him. 

 

Ultimately Joel isn't Ellie's parent though, and his paternal lording over her seems less and less wanted as she grows up. Ellie is purposely trying to distance herself from him at points in the game, whilst still clearly acknowledging that she owes him her life (and even this is a sore point). 

 

She is fully aware that she is a projection of Joel's lost daughter and that whatever love they have is a fantasy built on lies as much as shared experiences, but as the Dino park flashback shows, she did learn to love him back despite his obsession with her and even appreciates his constant efforts to make her happy in a world that is far from it.

 

There's that point in the first game where Joel tries to pass responsibility for Ellie over to Tommy because he knows he is getting too close to her, but ultimately bottles it and just goes full on all in dead daughter replacement. He always needed her more than she needed him and Ellie's need for revenge is fuelled by a sense of having to repay a debt and guilt for pushing back so much as much as any real father daughter love. 

 

The real love of a parent story here is Abby's. The Ellie Joel tale is much more complicated imo.

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