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You know what, I think you've made me realise that is a huge part of why I got bored of Witcher 3. 

 

I've picked up so much crap, I see some herbs and feel like I should pick it up - what if I need it for crafting some potion that will really help? except I've got just so much crap that I'm overwhelmed and the game hasn't protected me from myself, feeling like I should pursue crafting but then getting to the craft screen only to find I basically cannot craft anything. I've got 1000 bushels of Fart Parsley but it isn't good for crafting anything. I could sell it, and get 1 penny per bushel. Great. I might as well leave it in the inventory. 

 

I think no-one took a step back and had a think about crafting or inventory in Witcher 3, like those projects you just keep building on without stepping back and thinking "have I made something good here?" - understandably while they focussed on things like combat. But removing it would have improved things. 

 

I actually think Skyrim was better in this regard, because you were aware of things weighing you down but also I think something about the interface is faster. Witcher just felt sluggish, from the actual looting to the crafting...

 

That leads me onto crafting. I actually quite like crafting as a concept in games, but it really needs to be instant menus. I am not sure how it works in game dev studios, but many games could really benefit from proper UX / UI designers - the kind that are employed for web / phone apps that can point out usability flaws. 

 

I mean Nintendo are the biggest culprits here. They wanted to make Zelda a little bit more western, a little bit more skyrim with crafting. But they couldn't get out of their animal crossing mindset and think we want to make one thing at a time and watch a small cutscene. But here's where I'm torn, if it started to feel too slick and app like, it'd start to feel less Nintendo, it might start to have that cold isolated soulless feeling that creeps into things like Skyrim or Witcher. There was a certain delight in watching mushrooms bounce and sizzle. Maybe just not after the 100th time.

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Any game that advertises it's difficulty. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I hate the Souls games. I have zero patience for repeatedly dieing then having to trek back to the same point again. Then I die. Rinse and repeat. I'm so happy that a lot of the Mega Man collections now have a variety of options when it comes to catering the difficulty.

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8 minutes ago, Uncle Nasty said:

This new thing, introduced by Destiny I think, where you have to long hold down a button instead of just pressing it. Wank.

 

I just mentioned in my post that maybe UX designers are needed for things like crafting interfaces in games. But I actually think this is a side effect of games investing in "UX" rather than just the trad gaming mechanics.

 

Feels like a common thing where UXy people do a lot of thinking and realise that a long press is so much simpler and quicker than pressing A once and A again to confirm!

 

Except it often forgets literally years of muscle memory doing this in games.

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8 minutes ago, cowfields said:

You know what, I think you've made me realise that is a huge part of why I got bored of Witcher 3. 

 

I've picked up so much crap, I see some herbs and feel like I should pick it up - what if I need it for crafting some potion that will really help? except I've got just so much crap that I'm overwhelmed and the game hasn't protected me from myself, feeling like I should pursue crafting but then getting to the craft screen only to find I basically cannot craft anything. I've got 1000 bushels of Fart Parsley but it isn't good for crafting anything. I could sell it, and get 1 penny per bushel. Great. I might as well leave it in the inventory. 

 

I think no-one took a step back and had a think about crafting or inventory in Witcher 3, like those projects you just keep building on without stepping back and thinking "have I made something good here?" - understandably while they focussed on things like combat. But removing it would have improved things. 

 

I actually think Skyrim was better in this regard, because you were aware of things weighing you down but also I think something about the interface is faster. Witcher just felt sluggish, from the actual looting to the crafting...

 

That leads me onto crafting. I actually quite like crafting as a concept in games, but it really needs to be instant menus. I am not sure how it works in game dev studios, but many games could really benefit from proper UX / UI designers - the kind that are employed for web / phone apps that can point out usability flaws. 

 

I mean Nintendo are the biggest culprits here. They wanted to make Zelda a little bit more western, a little bit more skyrim with crafting. But they couldn't get out of their animal crossing mindset and think we want to make one thing at a time and watch a small cutscene. But here's where I'm torn, if it started to feel too slick and app like, it'd start to feel less Nintendo, it might start to have that cold isolated soulless feeling that creeps into things like Skyrim or Witcher. There was a certain delight in watching mushrooms bounce and sizzle. Maybe just not after the 100th time.

 

I'm currently enjoying Witcher 3, but it's definitely in spite of it's crafting and loot rather than because of. It seems there are 1000 plants I can easily harvest, and have probably spent hours doing so, but I can't do any alchemy because I'm missing that 1001st plant which is nowhere; and unlike all the other plants which I could have just bought for 2 coins each at the herbalist, nobody sells the actual important one.

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One thing that baffles me with the Witcher was how many things it gave me that I wasn’t the right level for. I get that finding a cool weapon then needing to get some skills to use it can feel good, but it got really tiring exploring, finding three recipes, even if I have the stuff they make gear miles above my level, maybe I should do some quests, oh shit the majority of them are way above my level. Like what’s the point of it being non linear if it keeps telling me I can’t do things yet because I’ve not done the very short list of correct things to do next. Just stop showing me things I can’t do.

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1 hour ago, moosegrinder said:

 I think Spider-man is the only one I enjoyed in recent years.

 

It's interesting you should say this as I'm currently playing through it (well actually I'm now at the point of having to force myself to play it), and it's like the developers went forward in time, read the first few pages of this thread and decided to put every one of the turn offs in the game. It has

 

Skill Trees: This isn't an origin story, why doesn't spider-man know how to yank someone's gun out of his hand until I get an arbitary number of skill points (I could be wrong but I'm also pretty sure you see him do it in a cut scene before you are able to in the game). It has gadgets with skill trees and alternate costumes with powers as well (although at least these fit in narratively better).

 

Quick time events: Not only that but obviously instant fail quick time events that have you then staring at a load screen that is generally longer than the time it takes you to get from wherever you were in the bombastic faux cut scene section to the QTE again.

 

Forced stealth: The stealth with Spider-man is great but then they chuck in another couple of short sections where you have to stealth about with other characters, and obviously if you are caught you have to watch another load screen that you spend longer looking at than getting back to the point you failed. This is because of incredibly generous check pointing, as if they realise that everyone hates fucking forced stealth sections and then don't want to make it too onerus. Just don't add the fucking stupid things in the first place.

 

Icon, icons, all I can see are icons: Fucking hell there are a lot of icons on the map. I actually quit the game at one point when yet another set appeared, I just found it so disheartening. I'd been kind of making my way through the early ones (bags and towers) and was quite happy that I had about 50% of the bags, and then it throws up some landmarks, erm okay, then some bases, then some research stations, then some cameras, then for some reason I agree to help some twat find his fucking pigeons! And then there are more. If you want to make a Ubisoft game go and work for Ubisoft! To the point where you start getting completely conflicting things going on, so I'm in the middle of a battle, then a pigeon flies by, and you get all Spidey's dialogue about the stupid flying vermin.

 

Giving you loads of things to do but then pressuring you to do something else: There are points in the game where you will have just completed a mission and be perched on top of a building and Peter will say, oh I have some time to kill lets see what needs doing in the city. Yet literally the instant that you start to swing anywhere you will get a call from Watanabi, or MJ and another mission marker will pop up, loads of which are along the lines of 'can you quickly do this', or meet me here now. That's before you even get started on not being able to get anywhere because of all the fucking 'organic' crimes that appear.

 

 

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Games that are overwritten and/or twee. Modern throwback RPGs are really bad for the former, they seem to think that because people liked the writing in Planescape: Torment they need to overstuff their game with waffle that's constantly trying way too hard to be interesting, with the resulting effect of nothing being interesting because there's no contrast or room to breathe. I played 80 hours of Pillars of Eternity and can remember basically nothing about it. Sunless Sea was another bad example in another genre, the writing is cool for a little while but it gets blunted very quickly because it's constantly slapping you in the face with how characterful it is. If I read the word 'eldritch' in a game one more time..

 

Narrative indie games and walking simulators can fall into both those traps (Dear Esther) but spring to mind more for the latter. I enjoyed some aspects of Edith Finch but also spent a lot of time rolling my eyes at it. I suppose I have a pretty fine line between having my emotions manipulated in an enjoyable way and just feeling like I'm getting taken for a ride and being told exactly how I should feel at every moment while I'm on it.

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1 hour ago, Gambit said:

Any game that advertises it's difficulty. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I hate the Souls games. I have zero patience for repeatedly dieing then having to trek back to the same point again. Then I die. Rinse and repeat. I'm so happy that a lot of the Mega Man collections now have a variety of options when it comes to catering the difficulty.


I have no problem with difficulty in games but the repetition inherent to Souls games is what puts me off them. Difficult boss? Fine. It’s killed me? Well that was to be expected, let’s have another go then. I’ve got to trudge halfway through the level from the last save point, every time I die? Fuck that. 

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36 minutes ago, Garwoofoo said:


I have no problem with difficulty in games but the repetition inherent to Souls games is what puts me off them. Difficult boss? Fine. It’s killed me? Well that was to be expected, let’s have another go then. I’ve got to trudge halfway through the level from the last save point, every time I die? Fuck that. 

 

Corpse runs for raids were always a sore point on World of Warcraft. You spend ages preparing for a fight, only for some idiot to wipe the whole raid and then you've got literally 10 minutes or so getting everyone back in position for a second go.

 

I remember when Serpentshrine Cavern came out on World of Warcraft. Everyone had The Fear when reports first came out about its corpse run. You would have to run for about 60 seconds from the graveyard to the raid entrance, but that wasn't actually the raid entrance itself, I think it was underwater? you had to swim down, then get a really big lift and WAIT IN THE GODDAMN LIFT to get back inside, then find whatever boss you were trying to fight. I don't know why I kept going, why I didn't cancel my account. I think eventually they fixed it and made you respawn at the entrance.

 

Not long after I think they started to realise this wasn't good gameplay, and sadly I think it was intentional at first. Artificially slowing down play so people couldn't kill bosses too quickly.

 

Anyway this is also why I did give up on Dark Souls 3. I was genuinely excited about a really difficult challenge. It's satisfying to figure it out, to improve your skills by practice making perfect.  But having to grind your way back to a boss again and again isn't gameplay. It's only a challenge in so far as to see how much you can punish yourself by putting up with intentionally bad design. Fuck that. 

 

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I've been playing Resident Evil 3 to death, and the Inferno difficulty has a number of turn offs culminating in my experience yesterday that means I'm done and it's time to trade it in.

 

You play through the Standard, Hard and Nightmare modes, and there are a few frustrating sections all of which involve the Nemesis character.  It's brutally overpowered and has a lot of random behaviours and you get instadeath a lot.  You learn that you might well die in these parts of the game, but you carry on anyway.  However when you play on Inferno you have to save at the typewriters, and this means there's one block with three of these bits in a row.

 

You reload your saved game and you're in the gun shop.  You unlock the gate, walk through the house and then there's the three part section where Nemesis fires missiles at you. If you make it through, you get the section where the big round head rolls down the stairs, which needs a perfect dodge.  Then you get the next bit, running away from Nemesis and even if you fry him with the generator, he still reappears before you get to the end of the section.  It's too many one-hit-kills, all in a row, with no save points, and I just cannot be bothered with it.  

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I get completely switched off when a turn based game which has this far let you play at your own pace suddenly drops a "gotta go fast" turn limit on your head.

 

Normally the stages aren't even all that hard, but it's just no fun at all. At least XCOM2 had the decency to wear it on it's sleeve.

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9 hours ago, cowfields said:

 

I just mentioned in my post that maybe UX designers are needed for things like crafting interfaces in games. But I actually think this is a side effect of games investing in "UX" rather than just the trad gaming mechanics.

 

Feels like a common thing where UXy people do a lot of thinking and realise that a long press is so much simpler and quicker than pressing A once and A again to confirm!

 

Except it often forgets literally years of muscle memory doing this in games.

It’s very common these days but like a lot of modern console conventions I think it can be traced back to Halo, where X is reload but if you hold it down in contextual situations you get a different outcome, such as swapping weapons or boarding a vehicle. I see it as a way of having more than one action on a single button, and allowing the player to choose what happens by having differing inputs rather than them accidentally doing something they didn’t want to because they were standing too close to a dropped weapon or car door.

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"Oh no you are affected by poison/spell/drugs and for no apparent reason your magic powers are scrambled and you have play the hand we deal you. Too bad for the past 20 hours you fine-tuned a play style suited for you. Now we demand you use the spells we randomly select for you."

 

For this exact reason I did not finish Bioshock Remastered.

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5 minutes ago, df0 said:

"Oh no you are affected by poison/spell/drugs and for no apparent reason your magic powers are scrambled and you have play the hand we deal you. Too bad for the past 20 hours you fine-tuned a play style suited for you. Now we demand you use the spells we randomly select for you."

 

For this exact reason I did not finish Bioshock Remastered.

 

Your controls are also now reversed.

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25 minutes ago, df0 said:

"Oh no you are affected by poison/spell/drugs and for no apparent reason your magic powers are scrambled and you have play the hand we deal you. Too bad for the past 20 hours you fine-tuned a play style suited for you. Now we demand you use the spells we randomly select for you."

 

For this exact reason I did not finish Bioshock Remastered.

 

Similarly: your RPG character has been customised towards Build X over the course of the game, but now you've entered an unavoidable scenario that's near-impossible unless you customised stats toward Build Y or Z over the course of the game. Deus Ex HR - pre-update - immediately comes to mind.

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:lol:
Deus Ex was terrible for that. I struggled so much on bosses and all the tips I read said “use the aoe rockets skill”. Great, what if I don’t have that.

 

*awkward silence*

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17 hours ago, cowfields said:

I mean Nintendo are the biggest culprits here. They wanted to make Zelda a little bit more western, a little bit more skyrim with crafting. But they couldn't get out of their animal crossing mindset and think we want to make one thing at a time and watch a small cutscene. But here's where I'm torn, if it started to feel too slick and app like, it'd start to feel less Nintendo, it might start to have that cold isolated soulless feeling that creeps into things like Skyrim or Witcher. There was a certain delight in watching mushrooms bounce and sizzle. Maybe just not after the 100th time.


aka the R* approach. Want to use your PC in GTA? First you must sit down at your chair which takes ages. Then you must lean forwards and tap at the keyboard, which takes ages. Want to open your safe? Strap in, it takes a million years.

 

Red dead: four hours to kneel down by a fire and cook a single piece of meat. You have to make split point bullets ONE AT A TIME. Want to use that gun emplacement? Ok, wait for your hair to go grey while you watch an animation you can’t cancel if someone is shooting at you. Want to leave that gun emplacement? Ok, wait for your hair to go grey while you watch an animation you speed up if someone is shooting at you. Did you start reloading while someone started shooting at you? You can no longer dodge - you have to leap in the air until the animation is complete. 
 

Fucking kill yourself R*

 

edit:

 

while I’m here, the UI of R* games is a fucking shambles. I would say that whoever is responsible needs to be fired into the sun, but that would suggest that it’s been built by an actual team, rather than piecemeal by various people responsible for wildly different thinks, resulting in this schizophrenic Frankenstein’s monster we have. There’s no excuse for it. There’s no consistency whatsoever. 
 

For example, I have 30+ treasure maps on RD: O that I haven’t opened. I haven’t opened them because it’s super inefficient - the map is large and traveling takes forever so it stands to reason you would want to start with one that describes a treasure nearby. You can’t. You have to open the satchel, navigate to documents tab, open treasure maps, and then click on one with a name that sounds familiar. You cannot look at the world map while you do that, as it exits the satchel interface. So you click on a map, usefully titled something like Woodsman’s Sigh, and watch a video of your character opening the map. Then if you’ve fucked up and the location is down in Louisiana while you’re in New Mexico, you have to watch a video of your character putting their map away. Then you have to open the satchel menu and do it all over again. Unacceptable. There’s no “return to menu” button while you’re looking at the treasure map 

 

also every button does something slightly different depending on how long you hold it or what other buttons your currently holding or whether you’re near a horse or an officer of the law or a shoe or a campfire or a piece of rope. 
 

for example, triangle is “mount horse” unless your horse is near a policeman, at which point triangle is “tackle policeman to the ground, get off him, mount your horse, flee through the streets of New Orleans frantically whilst pursued by every gunman in Christendom, and then clippings a bollard and being projected from your horse into a streetcar. Fuck off

 

also you automatically stop galloping or sprinting when you’re near a campfire for some reason, which is beyond maddening if you’re being shot at

 

inexcusable. The budget for this game was staggering

 

inexcusable

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15 hours ago, cowfields said:

Anyway this is also why I did give up on Dark Souls 3. I was genuinely excited about a really difficult challenge. It's satisfying to figure it out, to improve your skills by practice making perfect.  But having to grind your way back to a boss again and again isn't gameplay. It's only a challenge in so far as to see how much you can punish yourself by putting up with intentionally bad design. Fuck that. 

 

Apologies in advance if this reads as brusque.

 

That's not an inherent failing of the game design, that's entirely a lack of learning, awareness or progress on your part. "Intentionally bad design" is a meaningless criticism, not only because it's not "bad" design to ask the player to learn from a consistent set of rules, but also for the lack of respect for the designers' motivations.

 

Likewise, "X isn't gameplay" doesn't mean anything. It emphatically is "gameplay", so unless you just mean "I don't like it", you'll need to define what you mean by "gameplay".

 

That aside, I enjoyed a lot of your other observations! 

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I was being ranty for sure. I meant isn't enjoyable gameplay. 

 

My point I guess, I could rephrase this way: how does someone implement endlessly repetitive corpse runs, intentionally designing it so you do not respawning right outside the boss, think that is fun and enjoyable game design? 

 

I guess others enjoy that and prefer not being able to respawn outside a boss. I see it as punishing with time wasting, and not actually a useful challenge. Often this distant respawn thing means the only extra blocker to progress is time considering that the grind back isn't difficult, with no real risk, it's just a chore that stops you from trying to play the bit of the game you want to play, by forcing you to repeat bits you're bored of by now. 

 

"Intentionally bad design" was just a ranty way of saying that I am annoyed at them ruining the game for me with their choices. It's a ranty thread after all. Obviously I understand people love the game. 

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4 hours ago, Stanshall said:

it's not "bad" design to ask the player to learn from a consistent set of rules


I finished a few From games and generally enjoyed them but I’m willing to play devil’s advocate: sprints from lanterns and bonfires do encourage learning of rules on the way, but then you’re throwing everything out for a new rule book called the boss. ;) I missed a shortcut getting to Amy on Bloodborne so I had to fine-tune approaches to poison lakes and winter lanterns until the threat was diminished... but then I’d die from a move that Amy had never done before. Eventually you learn to be cautious and bait out moves to see what it can do, but this isn’t a rant about Amy, just an observation about learning new things.

 

(Incidentally, I had depopulated a few areas when attempting DS2 bosses and didn’t mind in the slightest. The “consistent set of rules” for this area’s population was mastered a while ago - it’s just the dude in this new area that needs studying.)

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My bug bear this gen has been flower picking. From Far Cry 3 to The Witcher to Horizon Zero Dawn to RDR2 to Days Gone and many more (and soon to be found, I'm sure, in Ghost of Tsushima) these games have you out gathering plants because that's really fun gameplay. So annoying.

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‘Wacky’ stuff in Japanese games that doesn’t translate culturally at all, that’s probably meant to be charming or funny but is actually embarrassing to a Western audience. Latest examples are the intros to the games in 51 Worldwide Games, the ones with the model figures that speak. They’re horribly toe-curling, and the English voice acting is shrieky and smug and just ugh. Who signed off on these? What’s the intent behind them? Do the Japanese like them more than we do? To tell you the truth, mind, I actually half-enjoy watching them because they’re SO bad and it’s a fun game to try to figure out how they came into existence, so maybe the joke’s on me. 
 

Nintendo’s continued inability to do online properly, now nearly 2 decades after Xbox Live launched. Maybe when the Wii launched they had the excuse of inexperience. Two consoles further in, there’s no excuse at all. It’s just baffling how little they understand about what makes a good online experience.

 

Very slow animation sequences before you get to the screen for an action  (eg. upgrading weapons) you have to do loads of times in a game. Rockstar are great for this one!

 

Entering a wide area with waist-high obstacles littered everywhere = cover-based shootout/stealth time! It’s notable how Naughty Dog have picked up and improved on this in recent years. TLOU2 has it a little, but the devs have started managing to hide this from being so blatant in their combat bowl designs. Compared to the original TLOU, the difference in art design skill being used here is obvious. It’s very clever what they’re doing to hide the more egregious ‘here we go again, eye-roll’ design of the combat bowls. It’s the difference between making these sequences feel organic as opposed to shoehorned-in videogamey.

 

Horribly long load times after you die. I’m hoping that next gen finally puts a stop to this. (The SSDs in the new consoles are going to be by far the most impactful change we’ve seen in gaming for decades, mark my words.)

 

A game with massively long load times to even get to the title screen. And that’s before you actually get anywhere near the game itself. What is it even loading up here? (Hi Fortnite.)

 

Continually being reminded about the next story mission while you’re having fun with side-activities in an open world game.

 

Tutorial control prompts appearing for the ENTIRE GAME. I think I know how to turn my flashlight on now, cheers.

 

Games being mostly unable to split the difference between giving you zero help on puzzles so it’s easy to get completely stuck, and effectively solving the puzzle for you.
 

Similarly, games that know you can look things up on the internet, so remain obtuse through bad design. Note that here I’m not referring to games like Dark Souls, where not understanding everything is part of the appeal. I’m talking about games where a system or path is so obscure that you’ll get stuck or not understand something at all, but the devs clearly thought ‘they can just look it up’ rather than improve the game design so that this is less likely to happen.

 

Similarly, any game where the exit to an area relies on standing in exactly the right nondescript spot on a wall for a control prompt to appear, when the design of the area leaves no clue that that’s what you’d need to do, and surely the problem was picked up during play testing. Again, refer to the internet, I guess!

 

Convoluted upgrade systems with way too many stats, and no way in the early game to know which upgrade path is good.

 

Generic rawk music in the 2000s (often not even licensed songs but just some chuggy riffs produced in-house) continually used on game soundtracks (hi Trials!), replaced by generic hip-hop / EDM these days. I like it when devs curate their soundtrack well and obviously care about the music. Rocket League, for example, has gone from what I thought was pretty generic music at launch, to a huge bunch of well written new songs that rotate and change whenever there is a new update. Music curation has been a big thing for the developers, Psyonix, and it leads to a great vibe for the game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Rocket_League

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50 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

My bug bear this gen has been flower picking. From Far Cry 3 to The Witcher to Horizon Zero Dawn to RDR2 to Days Gone and many more (and soon to be found, I'm sure, in Ghost of Tsushima) these games have you out gathering plants because that's really fun gameplay. So annoying.

I was happy to discover picking flowers in Days Gone serves one purpose: trade in for money. No potions, no salves, no ointments, no oils. Which truth be told is a tad awkward, same for the animal meat. There's a cook in each camp, there's an animation for picking flowers and skinning animals. And flowers are displayed on the mini map. So why is there no potions and food? Also, Sarah is a botanist and Deek is an amateur botanist.

 

Something tells me that whole crafting part was cut late into development and what we see are remnants.

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2 hours ago, cowfields said:

I was being ranty for sure. I meant isn't enjoyable gameplay. 

 

My point I guess, I could rephrase this way: how does someone implement endlessly repetitive corpse runs, intentionally designing it so you do not respawning right outside the boss, think that is fun and enjoyable game design? 

 

I guess others enjoy that and prefer not being able to respawn outside a boss. I see it as punishing with time wasting, and not actually a useful challenge. Often this distant respawn thing means the only extra blocker to progress is time considering that the grind back isn't difficult, with no real risk, it's just a chore that stops you from trying to play the bit of the game you want to play, by forcing you to repeat bits you're bored of by now. 

 

"Intentionally bad design" was just a ranty way of saying that I am annoyed at them ruining the game for me with their choices. It's a ranty thread after all. Obviously I understand people love the game. 

 

Some of the DS boss paths do feel pointless and time wasting (Firelink -> Capra), but I adore the run to the Taurus demon. It forced me to get better at the moment to moment part of the game.

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I really don't like weapon racers.

 

I say this as someone who has played hundreds of hours of Mario Kart, Sonic Racing and countless others.

 

I just want to drive as fast as I can, and if that's fast enough to win, then I want to win. If it's not fast enough to win, I'll practise until I can do it.

 

The ironic thing is that, as the Monday night Gran Turismo crew know, I'm not even a particularly quick driver. :lol:

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