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Gaming PC future proofing


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11 minutes ago, Uzi said:

The thing about the PS5 SSD isn't just the raw speed according to tech peeps

 

https://wccftech.com/tim-sweeney-explains-exactly-why-the-ps5s-ssd-and-i-o-architecture-is-way-more-efficient-than-pcs/

 

 

Starts around a 4-5 mins in

 

The PC gamer referenced the fact that there's more to it.

 

Quote

For reference the SSD inside the upcoming PS5 is promising uncompressed throughput of at least 5,500MB/s, though is expected to be able to use some compression algorithm trickery to hit 9,000MB/s for some workloads.

 

  It remains to be seen what exclusive PS5 software will leverage fast loading of data and how effective it will be.  Besides R&C are there other games that attempt to show this off? 

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5 minutes ago, simms said:

 

The PC gamer referenced the fact that there's more to it.

 

 

  It remains to be seen what exclusive PS5 software will leverage fast loading of data and how effective it will be.  Besides R&C are there other games that attempt to show this off? 

 

Too early to say - they've had one official reveal and it is still several months to launch and the tech will mature and go up in usage as devs transition over to next gen hardware and tools. In theory devs can't shut up about how much of a big deal it is so I suspect it'll lead to some amazing things - I said in another thread think of the immersion limitations in games like Skyrim despite being so open you can't get into towns without loading screens and parts of the world being gated off/

 

But around 7:30 in the linus video is basically covers the main factor which is bottlenecks and the custom controller with the PS5 so just throwing super fast SSD's at the PC won't necessarily match - needs to be fast all the way through with no bottlenecking to ensure that speed can be delivered effectively.

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5 hours ago, Uzi said:

2: Next gen consoles will have a far superior hardware price to value based on current knowledge at launch - particularly if they manage to come in under £500.00 which is excellent value for the hardware. If someone is looking for a high end experience without wanting to spend more than a few hundred this year - this is the way to go.

 

I would largely agree with this, only with the slight caveat that if you need to use the computer for anything else then the extra spend is not exactly money down the drain. TBH it's dissapointing that no equivalent ot the "OtherOS" feature has been explored since, which removed this distinction to some degree. I know there are piracy and security worries, but I would've thought given both consoles run hypervisors anyway, they could offer a way to run Linux inside a VM in a relatively unproblematic way. During this pandemic, I've heard about so many children doing homework on their parents phones because they don't have a computer. So it's a shame to have these devices that, despite being capable of very diverse uses, are essentially big useless lumps under the telly when they're not being used to play games or watch Netflix.

 

PC games are also generally cheaper, and how you get a free "remaster" of sorts of all your games whenever you upgrade. It looks like the new consoles will also offer this in some way though, particularly the Xbox as Microsoft have made some pretty big promises. Hard to beat PC in terms of the "all the games you already own now run faster and better" upgrade experience though.

 

 

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Also I'm not sure that mulitplaform devs will utilise fast loading if Xbox series X and PC cannot match the PS5 in the area especially in games we're this is fundamental to its design, so we'll only likely to see this used in exclusive software. Mulitplaform games will always have to cater to the lowest common denominator.

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Just now, Liamness said:

 

I would largely agree with this, only with the slight caveat that if you need to use the computer for anything else then the extra spend is not exactly money down the drain. TBH it's dissapointing that no equivalent ot the "OtherOS" feature has been explored since, which removed this distinction to some degree. I know there are piracy and security worries, but I would've thought given both consoles run hypervisors anyway they could offer a way to run Linux inside a VM in a relatively unproblematic way. During this pandemic, I've heard about so many children doing homework on their parents phones because they don't have a computer. So it's a shame to have these devices that, despite being capable of very diverse uses, are essentially big useless lumps under the telly when they're not being used to play games or watch Netflix.

 

PC games are also generally cheaper, and how you get a free "remaster" of sorts of all your games whenever you upgrade. It looks like the new consoles will also offer this in some way though, particularly the Xbox as Microsoft have made some pretty big promises. Hard to beat PC in terms of the "all the games you already own now run faster and better" upgrade experience though.

 

 

Agreed - I meant generally - if you want a high end gaming experience with world class SSD performance - ray tracing - excellent CPU and GPU power for the price and even potentially great audio controllers and media support for the price you cannot go wrong with what the consoles will bring this November or so for £500 or so.

 

PC will always be my primary and fave platform and I will invest heavily in it but I know both MS and Sony have hit it out of the park with their hardware and gamers are in for a treat.

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Is there an easy way to tell what CPU upgrade your motherboard supports?  I've got an ASUS Prime B350M-A with a 1500x in at the moment and am thinking about an upgrade but not sure what's compatible any more..  And the ASUS website seems intent on not helping me find out...

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24 minutes ago, Ant73 said:

Is there an easy way to tell what CPU upgrade your motherboard supports?  I've got an ASUS Prime B350M-A with a 1500x in at the moment and am thinking about an upgrade but not sure what's compatible any more..  And the ASUS website seems intent on not helping me find out...

https://www.cpu-upgrade.com/mb-ASUS/PRIME_B350M-A_CSM.html

Supported CPU’s listed on this page :)

 

A Ryzen 5 2600X would be my choice. I have a R5 2600 and it’s great, paired with a gtx 2060 super.

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1 hour ago, sbrandon111 said:

https://www.cpu-upgrade.com/mb-ASUS/PRIME_B350M-A_CSM.html

Supported CPU’s listed on this page :)

 

A Ryzen 5 2600X would be my choice. I have a R5 2600 and it’s great, paired with a gtx 2060 super.


Looks like that page is out of date, I was able to find the OEM webpage:

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/PRIME-B350M-A/HelpDesk_CPU/

BIOS 4801 supports all the way up to a 3950X. I'd imagine if you just let the CPU take the steering wheel instead of forcing an all core overclock, it shouldn't tax the board - with how Ryzen 2 works, that's probably the best way for them to operate, as well. I'd probably stick to something a little less power hungry however, like a 3600 or a 3700.

There was some boards that removed bits of CPU code to make space for new code that causes problems when installing, but the page doesn't mention such a thing so I'm guessing they didn't cheap out on bios flash memory!

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7 hours ago, Vimster said:

Sounds like it's overheating. Sadly I fear you may be due for an upgrade a little sooner than you thought. 

 

6 hours ago, MattyP said:

See if the fan on the GPU card is operating? Sounds like it might be a heat problem? Also is the PC dusty inisde? Open the case up and give it a good clean. Another thing to try is to maybe take the card out and re-seat it. Worth trying.....

 

8 hours ago, Uzi said:

 

Try using a different video out port on the GPU - the displayport/dvi/hdmi whatever you're using could be getting loose - or if it is consistently a few mins could be the cooling is fucked and the temps are rising and it is overheating

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions.  I've made a thread in Ask the forum.   I suspect it is a card that's on it's way out but would be good to diagnose for sure before getting a replacement. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Siri said:


Looks like that page is out of date, I was able to find the OEM webpage:

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/PRIME-B350M-A/HelpDesk_CPU/

BIOS 4801 supports all the way up to a 3950X. I'd imagine if you just let the CPU take the steering wheel instead of forcing an all core overclock, it shouldn't tax the board - with how Ryzen 2 works, that's probably the best way for them to operate, as well. I'd probably stick to something a little less power hungry however, like a 3600 or a 3700.

There was some boards that removed bits of CPU code to make space for new code that causes problems when installing, but the page doesn't mention such a thing so I'm guessing they didn't cheap out on bios flash memory!

 

 

Thanks all !

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15 hours ago, sbrandon111 said:

Having your Operating System on a SSD makes a huge difference to boot times on PC. If i was to recommend a quick upgrade to anyone is to get a 256 or 512GB SSD and install windows on that. It really does make a huge difference, maybe not in gaming performance, but to enjoyment and instant usability.

Absolutely. NVme drives are even better! I have a motherboard mounted 256GB NVme drive for the OS and then a 1TB SSD (SATA3) for content.

 

Worth getting NVme and getting the largest capacity one you can afford. They are awesome!

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On 18/06/2020 at 11:51, Vimster said:

The 4k target for the consoles is the crucial thing here. I get the impression most people here would be happier with a 1440p or even 1080p at 60+fps than a 4k at sub-60fps. There's this view with the hardware manufacturers that 4k is the be all and end all and the logical next step in fidelity, but frankly I'd much rather have a fast and smooth experience than a hi-res pretty one. And for anyone going PC this will probably be the biggest factor in keeping your current system worthwhile for a good while yet.  

 

The rationale behind the existence of Lockhart/Xbox Series S kind of plays into this to an extent. A weaker box to run the same games at a lowered rendering resolution.

 

Indications from most of the third-party games announced for the Xbox Series X is 4K/60fps so I don't know how much that really helps in terms of comparable requirements on the PC. You'll need to keep up with the XSS if gaming at 1080p and beat the Xboxes a fair amount to get significantly more performance or lower graphical quality to theoretically compensate (but that varies game to game in terms of how much that can help to regain performance).

 

The biggest unknown remains the I/O problem on PC with no announced solution to close the gap with the consoles bespoke I/O solutions.

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1 hour ago, mushashi said:

 

The biggest unknown remains the I/O problem on PC with no announced solution to close the gap with the consoles bespoke I/O solutions.

I'm not so sure that the bespoke solutions that Sony and Microsoft are touting as new, are much of an advancement on SSD drives that have been available for ages to pc users. They're certainly new to consoles. I suppose it's down to the bespoke OS more than the hardware.

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This isn't specifically aimed at you, but much like Linus Sebastian's (he of the Linus Tech Tips) original viewpoint on the matter when he slagged off Tim Sweeney, it's not about the storage drive itself really, it's about removing bottlenecks throughout the entire I/O chain.

 

For instance, why does shoving in the fastest NVMe drive that money can currently buy into the fastest, most expensive PC you can build yield little in the way of appreciably faster loading or streaming benefits over a slow-ass SATA SSD in the vast majority of games?

 

The raw ability to get data off the storage drive isn't much use if you run into a traffic jam elsewhere. It's like owning a Ferrari and driving it around central London during rush hour instead of on the Nürburgring, that is the key advancement brought by the consoles.

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2 hours ago, sbrandon111 said:

I'm not so sure that the bespoke solutions that Sony and Microsoft are touting as new, are much of an advancement on SSD drives that have been available for ages to pc users. They're certainly new to consoles. I suppose it's down to the bespoke OS more than the hardware.


Even more importantly I want to see real world applications of the consoles I/O solutions in actual games.  At the moment it feels at bit like the PS4’s 8GB of GDDR5 RAM hype prior to its launch.

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4 hours ago, mushashi said:

The biggest unknown remains the I/O problem on PC with no announced solution to close the gap with the consoles bespoke I/O solutions.

Microsoft are bring the DirectStorage API being used on the XsX to Windows, did they not mention that in the ResetEra thread? If they can cut away a lot of the overhead the current storage stack on Windows brings then the raw performance advantage the PC can muster will make up for any specialised hardware.

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On 18/06/2020 at 23:33, Ant73 said:

Thanks all !

 

Just to make sure, if you do decide to upgrade to a 3000-series CPU at some point, make sure you update the BIOS to the latest version first; if you're on an old, pre-3000-supporting version when you switch out the CPUs you won't get very far!

 

As for the original topic, well, everything's largely been said already - i.e. future-proofing is more or less meaningless, particularly at this precise moment in the hardware cycle, but even at the best time (generally about halfway through a console generation) you're still generally paying over the odds for the sake of avoiding upgrading for a year or two extra.*

 

That said, if you need a fancy PC right now for other reasons (e.g. you need a machine for work/your old machine has died), and don't want to have to go through a dramatic upgrade in the short-term, you'd probably want to:

  • grab a motherboard with PCIe 4 support, so you've got a pathway for graphics card/SSD upgrades further into the future. I think this means any X570 board on the AMD side, not sure what the Intel situation is.
  • stick in a high-end processor; of all the components, that's the most likely to not need upgrading for a looong time if you get something powerful now. Again, more familiar with AMD here, but a 3700X would be nice if you have the money.
  • ideally transplant an old graphics card into your system until the next gen cards come out in a few months, then see how the land lies. If that's not possible, and you really want something that will last a few years until PCIe 4 graphics cards really kick in, well, I'd suggest nothing fancier than an RTX 2070 Super / RX 5700 XT (Raytracing / non-raytracing, respectively). Buying top-end immediately before a new card generation? Not something I'd recommend.
  • stick in at least 16gb RAM.

That should leave you with a very powerful machine at the moment, that can be upgraded a few years down the line with a fancy new graphics card (and maybe some extra RAM) and remain competitive.

 

Of course, this all assumes that the move to PCIe 5 doesn't come sooner than anticipated. That'll completely screw you if it becomes a thing in a few years. Future-proofing! The fool's game!

 

*and even then are likely to trap yourself in a cycle of wanting the very best, and so upgrading just as often, only now you're spending even more money while doing so

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3 hours ago, mushashi said:

This isn't specifically aimed at you, but much like Linus Sebastian's (he of the Linus Tech Tips) original viewpoint on the matter when he slagged off Tim Sweeney, it's not about the storage drive itself really, it's about removing bottlenecks throughout the entire I/O chain.

 

For instance, why does shoving in the fastest NVMe drive that money can currently buy into the fastest, most expensive PC you can build yield little in the way of appreciably faster loading or streaming benefits over a slow-ass SATA SSD in the vast majority of games?

 

The raw ability to get data off the storage drive isn't much use if you run into a traffic jam elsewhere. It's like owning a Ferrari and driving it around central London during rush hour instead of on the Nürburgring, that is the key advancement brought by the consoles.

I absolutely agree. I'm hoping that the whole OS for both new consoles is built around the SSD tech and data transfer etc. In a way, the new Xbox might be hampered by needing to have new first party games perform similarly on PC, seeing as they're pushing gamepass on pc pretty hard. Sony might have the advantage in that they don't need to worry about that, at least for PS5 exclusive titles. It's going to be fun finding out :)

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1 hour ago, PC Master Race said:

 

Microsoft are bring the DirectStorage API being used on the XsX to Windows, did they not mention that in the ResetEra thread? If they can cut away a lot of the overhead the current storage stack on Windows brings then the raw performance advantage the PC can muster will make up for any specialised hardware.

I didn't know this :) awesome!

 

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When it becomes viable - maybe a 3080ti handily beats the new consoles - I think it just comes down to how much, and what, you play. 
 

When I went PC in 2015 the 970 I got ran things as well as or better than the (still newish) consoles. I upgraded the processor and GPU in 2018 I think (time flies) and have a 8700k and a 1080ti to play in 4K. 
 

Now I’m in a bigger room and play on a couch, I don’t really notice that I have to run RDR2 on 2100 or whatever to keep at 60. 
 

The extra cost of my set up was probably worth it for me in 2015 as there was so much PC stuff to get into so comparatively cheaply, but now I don’t play as much so I dunno. 
 

The type of games I play (football) mainly are never really any better for PC (aside from

being moddable) and sometimes even

miss features. (HDR). 
 

As I play and buy less, I claw back less of my initial outlay. If I thought I’d buy even 50+ games in the next five years, I’d maybe go for a PC gpu upgrade when necessary to stay at 4K60, knowing I’d get most of that back on game price savings and twiddle-ability but, as it is, if I find my current set up struggles to run the few things I’m interested in as I’d like, it’s quite likely the consoles will for less than upgrading would cost. 

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