Final Fantasy VII Final Fallout Thread

[Thor]

40 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

So you would be ok with a remake of ESB which changed the original’s concepts, scenes and some important plot points? If so, ok. I would consider this an awful move and I suspect millions of fans would object.

See, I think you'd find the objections would be from a very vocal minority of purists. Let's say Disney was to "reboot" Star Wars, specifically remaking the OT with a whole new cast. There are plenty of changes that could be made to better the story and characters while still remaining true to the original's plot beats.  Having Leia kiss Luke could be removed (oh no, we're actually brother and sister now!) And do we really need to talk about the whole "Oh, by the way, I am your father"? It's still a great scene and a brilliant reveal, but you could remake ANH to better hint at it, so that in ROTJ you don't need to have a scene about "Points of view". And that's just a couple off the top of my head.

 

@grindmouse Yes, of course if they remade ESB/Star Wars and this time instead had Vader, say, teaming up with Luke and co to go after some new big bad that Disney invented to sell merch, then yes that would be awful. But that's not what the FFVII devs have done here. That's not to say they won't with the next games, but we don't know that yet. 

[RubberJohnny]

So does no one actually want to talk about the speculation of that ending at all, given that's what the thread is originally about?

 

There's lots of people still re-litigating something that you can't change at this point.

[Talk Show Host]

8 minutes ago, Thor said:

See, I think you'd find the objections would be from a very vocal minority of purists. Let's say Disney was to "reboot" Star Wars, specifically remaking the OT with a whole new cast. There are plenty of changes that could be made to better the story and characters while still remaining true to the original's plot beats.  Having Leia kiss Luke could be removed (oh no, we're actually brother and sister now!) And do we really need to talk about the whole "Oh, by the way, I am your father"? It's still a great scene and a brilliant reveal, but you could remake ANH to better hint at it, so that in ROTJ you don't need to have a scene about "Points of view". And that's just a couple off the top of my head.

 

@grindmouse Yes, of course if they remade ESB/Star Wars and this time instead had Vader, say, teaming up with Luke and co to go after some new big bad that Disney invented to sell merch, then yes that would be awful. But that's not what the FFVII devs have done here. That's not to say they won't with the next games, but we don't know that yet. 

None of these changes are even remotely close to what FFVIIR has done.  No matter what you try to argue you know that changing something so much has nothing to do with being a purist. You know pretty well if such significant changes were made to the OT which altered the journey to the end people would be in an uproar.

 

edit: anyway, as RJ said, it’s pointless to go on.

[Thor]

But the game follows, quite closely, the major plot points of the first Midgar element of the game:

 

Sabotage of Mako Reactor

Cloud falling to the slums and teaming up with Aeris/Aerith. 

The Turks. 

Cloud dressing up as a woman to get to Don Corneo. 

The fall of the plate. 

The assault on Shinra HQ, teaming up with Red XIII. 

The Jenova reveal. 

The fight with Rufus. 

 

In between it expands on a lot of elements and characters, and yes has some changes, most notably the destiny 'beings', and of course Sephiroth at the end. But the game still leaves you with the characters essentially at the same place as they were at that point in the original game. To my knowlege at least. 

[RubberJohnny]

Spoiler

As mentioned, it would be a very different plotline without the time ghosts pulling everything to keep it on track - Barret dead, Zach possibly alive, not the mention the various extras all surviving the plate drop, Cloud not going on the second bombing mission, the Shinra boss surviving, Aerith can now do the lifestream manipulation stuff that required her dying before, Sepiroth is a flesh and blood guy who isn't stuck in a crystal in the northern crater and knows the future and breaks the fourth-wall.

 

So you're both kind of right, yes it keeps it pretty faithful thus far, but also the big plot device doing that is literally dead, so expect that level of changes without the correction in future.

[mdn2]

I find the whole thing quite interesting. I must admit, I'm not all that invested in FFVII (It's not in my top 5 FF games, if I'm honest), but I have completed it a couple of times - most recently in January this year just to try and gauge my interest in this remake. The changes in the ending do kinda make me more interested in playing it - although I appreciate those who revere the original more than I could find it distasteful. 

 

I was trying to think of something I loved that much that a reboot would upset me - for me it would be if someone else rewrote Terry Pratchett's Discworld books. Even though the originals would still exist, I would find the very idea of someone attempting to change something so dear to me as just...wrong. So I can kinda see why some people are quite upset by all this, even though it doesn't bother me personally. And maybe now I should be thankful they've never attempted to remake FFVI as well. 

[BadgerFarmer]

It seems like they can't do the whole story in the same detail as Midgar, because it would span around 5 full-size games, each taking at least a few more years to develop. And would we/they want to keep the same systems in place all that time? I do wonder if they started too big on this one and then realised how long it was going to take, so looked for ways to make changes.

 

But if I had to guess, I'd still expect them to hit the major plot points and locations going forward, perhaps condensing it down to 2 more games and keeping it fairly linear. And throughout that I assume there'll be plenty of deviations,  many of which will be quite small but a few perhaps quite big.

 

But hey, I really don't know, and again, I feel like that's the whole point right now. That sense of adventure when leaving Midgar for the first time is restored by not knonwing what comes next. And it's a way of asking us to reflect on what a remake is and our desire for nostalgia. It's a game that indulges nostalgia like few others for most of its duration, and then rips away that comfort. That's kind of cool, I thin.

[RubberJohnny]

28 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

But if I had to guess, I'd still expect them to hit the major plot points and locations going forward, perhaps condensing it down to 2 more games and keeping it fairly linear. And throughout that I assume there'll be plenty of deviations,  many of which will be quite small but a few perhaps quite big

 

I don't know, I feel like this first one already blew it's load by recreating most of the key scenes throughout the rest of the game - we see Aeris' death, Reunion, the destruction of Meteor, a battle reminiscent of the finale, and even the original ending cutscene, all in lavish CGI.

 

That feels like an odd thing to do if you're going to go through the series faithfully, are they just going to show the same CGI again? What does it leave the other games with for their big key moments, except memey scenes like the Dolphin jump? To my mind they've already done the crib-notes version, and they'll be going in a very different direction with Part 2:

 

Spoiler

That the Zach stuff at the end hints at multiple dimensions or timelines, well, that wouldn't be in there if it wasn't relevant.

 

Also it's a bit weird to complain they don't have the resources to do the full campaign in the time required, when one of the main complaints has been just how much filler and padding there is, in a game they spent five years working on. It sounds like they could have kept the same length but done more of the main plot.

[SuperCapes]

Loved the ending. So happy that I am going to experience something new with these characters I grew up with, and can safely assume there will be tonnes of beats kept from the originals.

 

The Junon march with the big Rufus posters sprawled everywhere is just too much to pass up. That could look incredible! 

 

Dyne and Corel (and Gold Saucer).

 

Mt Nibelheim and Rocket town. 

 

And ofcourse... Cosmo Canyon. 

 

I think they could safely tread through these areas in a similar fashion whilst still maybe having a new thread/order to it all. 

 

If I am being totally honest Disc 2 was mostly nonsense in the original so would love a new take on that!

 

Ultimately to me it's always been about the world and the characters. Looking back, the over arching plot was just something to pull me along. It was everything else that kept me coming back. 

 

I think many who are angry now, will still play the sequel out of curiosity, but count me in. More time in Gaia with Red XIII? ALL IN!!! 

 

 

[Talk Show Host]

50 minutes ago, Thor said:

But the game follows, quite closely, the major plot points of the first Midgar element of the game:

 

Sabotage of Mako Reactor

Cloud falling to the slums and teaming up with Aeris/Aerith. 

The Turks. 

Cloud dressing up as a woman to get to Don Corneo. 

The fall of the plate. 

The assault on Shinra HQ, teaming up with Red XIII. 

The Jenova reveal. 

The fight with Rufus. 

 

In between it expands on a lot of elements and characters, and yes has some changes, most notably the destiny 'beings', and of course Sephiroth at the end. But the game still leaves you with the characters essentially at the same place as they were at that point in the original game. To my knowlege at least. 

That was what I said earlier about the journey towards the plot points. If you introduce a story element which never existed and which changes how the story can completely play out, what is the point of the classic anyway? The only reason you are doing this new story element is to be able to expand the game to sequels. You don’t enrich the story, you are rewriting it. It would be the equivalent of having the Empire Strikes Back revealing that behind Vader is not the emperor but a secret organization which shapes time and thus can now completely control the destinies of the characters, change the time of events and the actual events when they feel like it. Yes, many plot points would be the same but they wouldn’t mean the same things at all. 
 

It’s a meta add on only there to give the excuse of prolonging the parts for financial reasons. 

[BadgerFarmer]

1 hour ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

I don't know, I feel like this first one already blew it's load by recreating most of the key scenes throughout the rest of the game - we see Aeris' death, Reunion, the destruction of Meteor, a battle reminiscent of the finale, and even the original ending cutscene, all in lavish CGI.

 

That feels like an odd thing to do if you're going to go through the series faithfully, are they just going to show the same CGI again? What does it leave the other games with for their big key moments, except memey scenes like the Dolphin jump? To my mind they've already done the crib-notes version, and they'll be going in a very different direction with Part 2:

What? These are short glimpses of things to come, or now potentially to come. They aren't whole scenes and the characters don't know what they are yet. If they've gone to the trouble of rendering all those bits just for that, I'd be surprised. If anything, the little flashes of other locations and events you see throughout the game suggest they've already been modelled at least in part for use later.

 

Quote

Also it's a bit weird to complain they don't have the resources to do the full campaign in the time required, when one of the main complaints has been just how much filler and padding there is, in a game they spent five years working on. It sounds like they could have kept the same length but done more of the main plot.

I'm not the one complaining here. My thinking is more plot = more locations that need finishing = more time. The padding is an artificial way to make more of the locations they've managed to finish. It's not good, but the alternatives seem to be less detail, a very short RPG or wait even longer.

[Talk Show Host]

Their answer  to horrible planning is padding the game out. Poor SE. 

[RubberJohnny]

2 hours ago, BadgerFarmer said:

What? These are short glimpses of things to come, or now potentially to come. They aren't whole scenes and the characters don't know what they are yet. If they've gone to the trouble of rendering all those bits just for that, I'd be surprised. If anything, the little flashes of other locations and events you see throughout the game suggest they've already been modelled at least in part for use later.

 

I don't know, it sounds like you, sprite and supercapes really don't want this to diverge from the original.

 

Like, you're all doing the "it's great it's something new and different" because you don't want to be negative, but all of those posts laying out what they expect from Pt 2 are just "the same stuff I have nostalgia for, in order, as unchanged as possible pls thx", which seems the opposite of new and different.

 

I get the feeling if Part 2 ends up being a big departure like say, jumping through timelines a la FFXIII-2, all these people would be saying "fuck this", just like grindmouse and TalkShowHost.

[SuperCapes]

11 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

I don't know, it sounds like you, sprite and supercapes really don't want this to diverge from the original.

 

Like, you're all doing the "it's great it's something new" because you don't want to be critical, but all of those posts laying out what they expect from Pt 2 are just "the same stuff I have nostalgia for, in order, as unchanged as possible pls thx". I get the feeling if Part 2 ends up being a big departure like say, jumping through timelines a la FFXIII-2, all these people would be saying "fuck this", just like grindmouse and TalkShowHost.

 

I think you misunderstood my point about naming locales/events. Of course I would love to see the Dyne part play out beat for beat as it did in OG, however they were examples more of the areas and the mini tales associated with them. 

 

If they do not play out at all then so be it, but I can take some certainty from the ending "Vice President... MR PRESIDENT!" that Rufus will have an arc, be it at Junon or not. Barrett still has his background to explore, as does Red XIII. I am pretty confident they will want to explore their backgrounds for the new audience. 

 

My ultimate point is, that the environments and the characters are all going to be present as it is still Gaia, be it the same timeline or not. 

 

I went into this with so much excitement but tempered expectations. I understand that it is not for everyone, especially the ending, which is totally fine! I am incredibly critical when it comes to games, and tend not to be on the fence. With this I am on the side that regardless of the future, more of this world is a plain win to me.

[sprite]

13 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

I don't know, it sounds like you, sprite and supercapes really don't want this to diverge from the original.

 

Like, you're all doing the "it's great it's something new" because you don't want to be critical, but all of those posts laying out what they expect from Pt 2 are just "the same stuff I have nostalgia for, in order, as unchanged as possible pls thx". I get the feeling if Part 2 ends up being a big departure like say, jumping through timelines a la FFXIII-2, all these people would be saying "fuck this", just like grindmouse and TalkShowHost.

 

Um, I'm just kinda on board with what they've done.  I didn't say any of what you have said in the second paragraph.  In fact, something that I'm super happy about is a clear deviation from the original's story

 

BIGGS IS ALIVE

 

I'm not one to be too overly critical of my own enjoyment of an experience because it's so rare these days that I get the opportunity to indulge.   That for some reason is being taken as me being completely closed minded, or people making assumptions on my behalf, or defending Square blindly, or whatever.  But it's nothing more than my having enjoyed this game and hoping to have the opportunity to continue this journey - whatever journey it is - with these characters who are bloody brilliant.  

 

I have acknowledged use of the word remake is misleading however I still like the breaking the fourth wall aspect of its use, i.e.

 

Sephiroth remaking the story

 

Also I have been critical of the game.  I'm just happy with this aspect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Talk Show Host]

10 minutes ago, SuperCapes said:

I am incredibly critical when it comes to games, and tend not to be on the fence. With this I am on the side that regardless of the future, more of this world is a plain win to me.

Why aren’t you overly critical of this? Is it because you think it’s a great game or because you just love the original and the general cast etc? Genuine question .

[SuperCapes]

4 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

Why aren’t you overly critical of this? Is it because you think it’s a great game or because you just love the original and the general cast etc? Genuine question .

 

I have been incredibly critical when discussing things like aerial combat (Mainly a camera issue), forced walking sections and the environment art (those vistas especially... shudder). I have not posted my full thoughts on those things really here, but as for the story, world and ending (Which is the discussions I have been involved in, which is cool btw! My wife listens for all of about five minutes to my knattering) I can say I loved them all. I do think the whispers were handled weirdly, especially at the end but not enough for me to go this is a poor show. 

 

 

[Talk Show Host]

1 minute ago, SuperCapes said:

 

I have been incredibly critical when discussing things like aerial combat (Mainly a camera issue), forced walking sections and the environment art (those vistas especially... shudder). I have not posted my full thoughts on those things really here, but as for the story, world and ending (Which is the discussions I have been involved in, which is cool btw! My wife listens for all of about five minutes to my knattering) I can say I loved them all. I do think the whispers were handled weirdly, especially at the end but not enough for me to go this is a poor show. 

 

 

Great :). Thanks for indulging my curiosity

[SuperCapes]

1 minute ago, Talk Show Host said:

Great :). Thanks for indulging my curiosity

 

Anytime dude! I am sorry you were not so happy with many aspects of this I will say it is nice as a relatively new member to have these discussions with you guys as I said above!

[Talk Show Host]

8 minutes ago, SuperCapes said:

 

Anytime dude! I am sorry you were not so happy with many aspects of this I will say it is nice as a relatively new member to have these discussions with you guys as I said above!

 
Any time :). I am trying to see this in a different light as well through the conversations but it’s very difficult, especially because I consider it -FFVII hype excluding - a mediocre game in general. 
 

It’s all good fun though

[SuperCapes]

1 minute ago, Talk Show Host said:

 
Any time :). I am trying to see this in a different light as well through the conversations but it’s very difficult, especially because I consider it -FFVII hype excluding - a mediocre game in general. 
 

It’s all good fun though

 

I totally understand! For me I am definitely affected by Nostalgia in my opinions no doubt at all! 

 

As I have been saying to my colleagues, I give it two scores, a nostalgia score and a removed bias score.

 

With removed bias being me really taking into account all of the negatives, which there are plenty. As an artist I can see from a development point of view where some of the issues stem using the base PS4 as a pretty limited piece of hardware these days, but things like the bloody aircon units being 6 polys is just not really acceptable! The forced walking sections and the hold forward to cross this beam, is just a pain in my bum and really grinds some of the pacing down, as does some of the environment re-use but I appreciate they are relatively short sections so it doesn't lose too many points! Combat is also a mixed bag but could whinge about that all day. It is the mini games and the world that even without any FF bias are just a joy, and something missing from many games these days!

 

Nostalgia - 6/6 eggs

 

Removed Bias - 4/6 eggs

 

(With my surname being Capon, and a love for all things egg related this is how I write my reviews for my colleagues... Like I say I am an opinionated nutter and share that with all of them all the time xD) 

[Ferine]

A small point, but isn't all the flashforward CG from Advent Children? Don't believe it's original for Remake.

 

In terms of diverging from the original going forward, I really hope they make Barret less of an 'angry black man' caricature. Feel like he was pretty short-changed in Remake given how most other cast members were more fleshed out; even Wedge got more characterisation, despite being S-E's relentless fat joke.

[SuperCapes]

30 minutes ago, Ferine said:

A small point, but isn't all the flashforward CG from Advent Children? Don't believe it's original for Remake.

 

In terms of diverging from the original going forward, I really hope they make Barret less of an 'angry black man' caricature. Feel like he was pretty short-changed in Remake given how most other cast members were more fleshed out; even Wedge got more characterisation, despite being S-E's relentless fat joke.

 

Yeah I think his character needs a proper arc in the sequel. I think he is one of my least favourite characters in this unfortunately. He softens up towards the end but I want to see more of that side. I just cannot wait to see more of the directors. They are all nuts! 

[BadgerFarmer]

1 hour ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

I don't know, it sounds like you, sprite and supercapes really don't want this to diverge from the original.

 

Like, you're all doing the "it's great it's something new" because you don't want to be negative, but all of those posts laying out what they expect from Pt 2 are just "the same stuff I have nostalgia for, in order, as unchanged as possible pls thx", which seems the opposite of new and different.

 

I get the feeling if Part 2 ends up being a big departure like say, jumping through timelines a la FFXIII-2, all these people would be saying "fuck this", just like grindmouse and TalkShowHost.

What? I was just correcting your claim that a lot of the later scenes had already been done. They haven't.

 

I haven't said anything about what I want from the rest of it, only what I guess they might do. TBH I'm kind of torn on that - I really liked seeing those classic scenes remade, but I also like the idea of being torn out of the comfort zone of that nostalgia, and a new adventure with this group of characters in this world is appealing. I do agree though that the whole twin timelines and future selves thing probably shouldn't be taken too far.

 

Don't you think it's interesting in how it deals with nostalgia BTW? I mean, it really indulges it for most of the game then forces you out of it, to take a step into the unknown. As a way of making us think about why we need that nostalgia in the first place, and our reaction to potentially losing it, I would've thought you especially would find that interesting.  

[RubberJohnny]

3 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

I haven't said anything about what I want from the rest of it, only what I guess they might do.

 

I mean yes, that's what led me to conclude you weren't too keen on the future direction.

 

If all these people really loved the direction, then you expect they'd be excited for the next games and speculating like mad about where those plot thread and hints at the end are going, instead they're avoiding that topic like the plague and reiterating how well it does the safe nostalgic bits, almost like they're reassuring themselves.

[El Spatula]

Have you even played it? Or is this another Rubber Johnny judges people from afar and says nostalgia a lot joint?

[RubberJohnny]

Everyone has played FF7, I played it for the first time in 2015 and you can find my very positive impressions in one of the "games you completed" threads.

 

I've only got a PC, and the Remake isn't out on that, but none of my posts on here have made any judgement on the game, so what's the issue?

[Bojangle]

On a personal level I've just got very little desire or energy to explain why I liked something only for you, Grindmouse or Talk Show Host to come over yelling DEBATE ME.

[Talk Show Host]

5 minutes ago, Bojangle said:

On a personal level I've just got very little desire or energy to explain why I liked something only for you, Grindmouse or Talk Show Host to come over yelling DEBATE ME.

 

Sorry, I tend to reply to topics in a discussion forum. 

[El Spatula]

Repeatedly until all resistance is ground to dust. The moan squad have really got a hard on for this game.