Final Fantasy VII Final Fallout Thread

[Gabe]

It's interesting that FF XIII got so much flack for being just endless corridors for hours and hours, but that's not the case here. Is that due to the nostalgia?

[carlospie]

I think it's because ff13 was a complete steaming pile of shit

[Gabe]

I recall a lot of people at the time raved about the battle system whilst agreeing the story was a bit of a mess, certainly. It definitely had it's fans.

[carlospie]

Iv read about three plot synopsis for ff13 and have actually finished it and the spinoffs and I still dunno wtf happened. Fal cie, lcie, wtfcie

[Gabe]

And to think that I bought the special edition 360 pack-in they released (despite already owning a 360) for that!

[Talk Show Host]

5 hours ago, Gabe said:

It's interesting that FF XIII got so much flack for being just endless corridors for hours and hours, but that's not the case here. Is that due to the nostalgia?

Of course it is imo. Other FFs -and other games- got flak for story silliness, writing, combat system, characters, lack of exploration or, my favorite, “feels like an MMO”, etc. Here these don’t count because they are supposedly a great “take” on the original, which means taking it and changing it for a cash n grab which will last the better part of a decade. 
 

@Thor I am sorry for being negative but this is my opinion and, frankly, there hasn’t been a positive thing said about the game which doesn’t involve nostalgia in any way. Except about the combat system which I actually kinda like. You wrote pages of negative posts about freakin Witcher 3 man, as we all do in many games, but here we are supposed to let everything go and give this a 9 or a 10?! Why? It has the same price on the shelf.
 

I finished the game three days ago and I still see no reason for this remake existing other than a cash grab and putting SE into some kind of path again because the series has been truly lost for years, quality and money  wise.
 

We argue for years when a movie classic even has a new scene which barely changes the original and here we are supposed to feel that’s it’s exciting? No, it’s not for me. This is not a proper remake but a change of a classic in order to create enough interest to buy its parts. I find it a shitty practice, not much different than micro transactions, albeit in a macro scale. Especially when the game has barely any improvements where it counts. 
 

It’s a trick and we have all fallen for it. 

[sprite]

I liked FFXIII as well.

Told you, I’m a weirdo.

[Talk Show Host]

8 minutes ago, sprite said:

I liked FFXIII as well.

Told you, I’m a weirdo.

 
I actually think it is an interesting game as well.  I like the characters much more than the remake. Even FFXVs. The writing and characters of FXII are also so much better than these relics here it’s not even funny. 
 

I think it’s a testament to how confusing the situation is at SE since their best writing, characters and stories can now be found in their MMO.

[sprite]

7 hours ago, grindmouse said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Cloud dying was misinformation -

 

speculation based on Zack potentially being around next game.

 

 

Its almost as if reading about the game and playing it for oneself are two completely different experiences.

[El Spatula]

You've never mentioned it before.

[sprite]

For me the original themes are enhanced more than ever, though.  I understand the interpretation that the big bad now is all related to time travel or whatever to undo that but, Aerith makes it 100% clear that 

 

Sephiroth is the greatest threat to the planet despite his protests that he wants to save it.


We see meteor, even. 
 

The lifestream and mako are more important than ever and Red XIII’s inclusion only serves to enhance the planetology plot points.

 

So yes, maybe there is a new thread (I’m not even convinced Zack is present in the version we are playing now, that’s not clear) but it’s in addition to the existing ones.

 

And I still take the use of the word “remake” in the sense that Sephiroth is remaking the story.

 

But I can understand that its use may be misleading.

 

Im just not upset about it.  Doesn’t mean I’m trying to invalidate the opinions of people who are.

 

[BadgerFarmer]

I don't get why some people have such fixed definitions of what a 'remake' is. Surely it's implies a pretty broad scope, from slavish recreation to playful reinterpretation. I'm always up for the latter. If you're re-making something, i.e. making it again from scratch, it makes sense that you imprint your own ideas on it.

 

[Talk Show Host]

13 minutes ago, sprite said:

For me the original themes are enhanced more than ever, though.  I understand the interpretation that the big bad now is all related to time travel or whatever to undo that but, Aerith makes it 100% clear that 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Sephiroth is the greatest threat to the planet despite his protests that he wants to save it.


We see meteor, even. 
 

The lifestream and mako are more important than ever and Red XIII’s inclusion only serves to enhance the planetology plot points.

 

So yes, maybe there is a new thread (I’m not even convinced Zack is present in the version we are playing now, that’s not clear) but it’s in addition to the existing ones.

 

And I still take the use of the word “remake” in the sense that Sephiroth is remaking the story.

 

But I can understand that its use may be misleading.

 

Im just not upset about it.  Doesn’t mean I’m trying to invalidate the opinions of people who are.

 
 

 

 

I understand Sprite, it’s great that you are enjoying it :). Out of curiosity, would you be fine if your favorite classic movies were being changed the same way by, let’s say, their 3D remakes? 

[Thor]

4 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

I don't get why some people have such fixed definitions of what a 'remake' is. Surely it's implies a pretty broad scope, from slavish recreation to playful reinterpretation. I'm always up for the latter. If you're re-making something, i.e. making it again from scratch, it makes sense that you imprint your own ideas on it.

 

Agreed. It's not a remaster, and there are loads of films that are remakes that change things, sometimes for the better. I'm not saying the changes made here are better than the original, but I don't feel they're to the game detriment either. 

 

1 minute ago, Talk Show Host said:

would you be fine if your favorite classic movies were being changed the same way by, let’s say, their 3D remakes? 

What do you mean by 3D remakes? Just versions of the exact same film but in 3D? Isn't that the opposite of grindmouse's complaint?

 

[sprite]

9 minutes ago, grindmouse said:

I'm not invalidating anyone's opinion but as @Talk Show Host observed, there's no real critical debate here.

 

Sprite, it's absolutely valid for you to love the game - but you haven't been able to articulate why any of the complaints are invalid - you're just not bothered by them.

 

As you say Square misled with the "remake" title, yet everybody seems fine with it here.

 

 

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Don’t presume to speak for me.  The reason I haven’t addressed the critical debate in any fine detail is because I don’t have the time to do it justice unlike the hundreds of posters on Era, apparently.  
 

Fitting the game in at all only happened due to the bank holiday weekend. 

[Talk Show Host]

1 minute ago, Thor said:

Agreed. It's not a remaster, and there are loads of films that are remakes that change things, sometimes for the better. I'm not saying the changes made here are better than the original, but I don't feel they're to the game detriment either. 

 

What do you mean by 3D remakes? Just versions of the exact same film but in 3D? Isn't that the opposite of grindmouse's complaint?

 

It’s just a random thing I wrote, like saying “new tech”, it’s doesn’t matter actually. The question is would you be ok if remakes of your favorite classic movies were changing those classics in order to bring in new sequels?

[sprite]

Also when I did try and engage in detail your response was to say you were putting me on ignore @grindmouse, what kinda encouragement is that?

[sprite]

12 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

I understand Sprite, it’s great that you are enjoying it :). Out of curiosity, would you be fine if your favorite classic movies were being changed the same way by, let’s say, their 3D remakes? 

Hans Christian Andersen says hello.  

 

And if I got a Serenity where 

 

 

Wash didn’t die

 

I’d just be thrilled to explore the world again which much loved characters with all new possibilities.

 

I’ve already drawn a parallel to Battlestar Galactica as well. This is really the best analogy for me with what they have done with FF7.

 

People either liked that or hated it.

 

Even the most cynical grew to like the new one even after knowing some of the key things that changed which they felt “ruined it” but actually once experienced for themselves.......

 

[BadgerFarmer]

9 hours ago, Talk Show Host said:

I am interested if you actually provide arguments why the writing is great for example or how padding is not an issue or the bad side quests or the lack of exploration or the corridor like design so you can justify your opinion (and your review - I assume you gave it a high score?)

 

I am not interested in general statements like “I don’t give the problems a pass” because they don’t provide  any actual conversation.

Whereas 'this is shit' is a jumping off point for great debate?

 

Anyway, OK. Let's have a go at the writing. Here's a small example, which I chose just because it caught my eye in the other thread:

Quote

“Look, it’s a big arm! Kinda cute right”

So this single out of context line was posted as an example of 'bad writing'. I don't think it is. Here's why it could even be considered 'good writing':

 

First, let's get it right. As I recall, Cloud asks, "What's that?" and Aerith replies, "It's a big arm. Kinda cute right?"

 

So, what does this exchange do?

 

1. It shows us more about Aerith and her view of the world, which we can put in the context of her story that we're in the process of learning in this part of the game. We already know that she's not just a simple flower seller, and that Shinra want her for some reason. And as we find out, she probably already suspects that the freedom she enjoys in the city will come to an end, and perhaps because of that she tries to enjoy the little things, see beauty in everyday stuff and so on. It's consistent with her character, which is based on a contrast between her naive charm and the heavy burden of who she is.

 

2. This part of the game is all about establishing Aerith's relationship with Cloud, creating a bond between them. We also find out she had a previous relationship with a SOLDIER, which perhaps has a bearing on how she treats him. Clearly she's trying to wind him up here, which is part of her effort to bring him out of his shell or just tease him for being so serious all the time. He's looking for an explanation here, and she knows it, but responds with an answer that doesn't give him one. It's a continuing theme in this section, and by the end of it he's warmed to her.

 

3. There's a callback to the original game here. That big arm featured as an environmental feature and it was just there. We might have thought back then, 'What's that?', and, well, it was a big arm. It sat there with no explanation looking a bit odd but adding character to the place. This line of dialogue highlights that.

 

4. It's one of many details that makes the characters feel like they're experiencing the world. They're noticing things as you notice them and making a comment about it. In the original they often felt like they were sort of dumped on top of the world, because it was pre-rendered, now they're in it and incidental dialogue like this is an important part of establishing that. 

 

Fair enough if you think that's a load of bollocks, but for me it works on these different levels, and there are plenty of other examples that do the same.

[Talk Show Host]

9 minutes ago, sprite said:

Hans Christian Andersen says hello.  

 

And if I got a Serenity where 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Wash didn’t die

 

I’d just be thrilled to explore the world again which much loved characters with all new possibilities.

 

I’ve already drawn a parallel to Battlestar Galactica as well. This is really the best analogy for me with what they have done with FF7.

 

People either liked that or hated it.

 

Even the most cynical grew to like the new one even after knowing some of the key things that changed which they felt “ruined it” but actually once experienced for themselves.......

 

Well you are essentially finding examples that suit your arguments and didn’t reply to my movie argument though. The BG is a good analogy for sure, but it was improved in world building, characterization, direction and it’s writing was leaps and bounds over the original, suited for a new era. None of these apply to FFVIR though. 

[sprite]

4 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

Well you are essentially finding examples that suit your arguments and didn’t reply to my movie argument though. The BG is a good analogy for sure, but it was improved in world building, characterization, direction and it’s writing was leaps and bounds over the original, suited for a new era. None of these apply to FFVIR though. 

Serenity is a movie?

 

See this is why meaningful debate is so hard.  Either I’m a complete idiot missing the point or others are deliberately trying to undermine my responses, and I’m never sure which.

[Talk Show Host]

3 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

Whereas 'this is shit' is a jumping off point for great debate?

 

Anyway, OK. Let's have a go at the writing. Here's a small example, which I chose just because it caught my eye in the other thread:

So this single out of context line was posted as an example of 'bad writing'. I don't think it is. Here's why it could even be considered 'good writing':

 

First, let's get it right. As I recall, Cloud asks, "What's that?" and Aerith replies, "It's a big arm. Kinda cute right?"

 

So, what does this exchange do?

 

1. It shows us more about Aerith and her view of the world, which we can put in the context of her story that we're in the process of learning in this part of the game. We already know that she's not just a simple flower seller, and that Shinra want her for some reason. And as we find out, she probably already suspects that the freedom she enjoys in the city will come to an end, and perhaps because of that she tries to enjoy the little things, see beauty in everyday stuff and so on. It's consistent with her character, which is based on a contrast between her naive charm and the heavy burden of who she is.

 

2. This part of the game is all about establishing Aerith's relationship with Cloud, creating a bond between them. We also find out she had a previous relationship with a SOLDIER, which perhaps has a bearing on how she treats him. Clearly she's trying to wind him up here, which is part of her effort to bring him out of his shell or just tease him for being so serious all the time. He's looking for an explanation here, and she knows it, but responds with an answer that doesn't give him one. It's a continuing theme in this section, and by the end of it he's warmed to her.

 

3. There's a callback to the original game here. That big arm featured as an environmental feature and it was just there. We might have thought back then, 'What's that?', and, well, it was a big arm. It sat there with no explanation looking a bit odd but adding character to the place. This line of dialogue highlights that.

 

4. It's one of many details that makes the characters feel like they're experiencing the world. They're noticing things as you notice them and making a comment about it. In the original they often felt like they were sort of dumped on top of the world, because it was pre-rendered, now they're in it and incidental dialogue like this is an important part of establishing that. 

 

Fair enough if you think that's a load of bollocks, but for me it works on these different levels, and there are plenty of other examples that do the same.

 
I appreciate the reply but most of what you wrote is not good writing but an effort in narrative and world building which mostly stands because of the original. I can’t get much to it because of work but if you think that’s good writing then what do you think of the LoU or Witcher? Dostoyevsky levels? 

[Thor]

"I appreciate what you wrote, but it's wrong. For reasons."

Talk Show Host, just now. 

 

 

TSH, care to explain exactly how everything "stands because of the original"? 

[Talk Show Host]

7 minutes ago, sprite said:

Serenity is a movie?

 

See this is why meaningful debate is so hard.  Either I’m a complete idiot missing the point or others are deliberately trying to undermine my responses, and I’m never sure which.

Come on you know that I meant generally. I was also talking about classics, movies that defined the medium. Would you be ok if Disney came out and changed the Empire Strikes Back in order to tell a different kind of story? And if you were, do you think that others would be too? And if so, do you find that an ok thing to generally do? I’m just curious.

[Talk Show Host]

1 minute ago, Thor said:

"I appreciate what you wrote, but it's wrong. For reasons."

Talk Show Host, just now. 

 

 

TSH, care to explain exactly how everything "stands because of the original"? 

I see you are effectively dodging everything I quoted you on my post and you move on. Oh well.

 

[Thor]

1 minute ago, Talk Show Host said:

Come on you know that I meant generally. I was also talking about classics, movies that defined the medium. Would you be ok if Disney came out and changed the Empire Strikes Back in order to tell a different kind of story? And if you were, do you think that others would be too? And if so, do you find that an ok thing to generally do? I’m just curious.

But TSH, that argument doesn't hold.

 

What exactly do you mean by changing Empire Strikes Back? Tweaking and meddling like Lucas, or remaking with new actors? The former is pants and all fans hate most of the tweaks; the latter has significantly more scope for acceptible changes. 

 

3 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

I see you are effectively dodging everything I quoted you on my post and you move on. Oh well.

See above. 

[BadgerFarmer]

8 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

 
I appreciate the reply but most of what you wrote is not good writing but an effort in narrative and world building which mostly stands because of the original.

1 of the 4 things I mentioned stands because of the original. It's just one of the layers. 

Quote

I can’t get much to it because of work but if you think that’s good writing then what do you think of the LoU or Witcher? Dostoyevsky levels? 

Different things with different aims. I'm not going to criticise The Last of Us for lacking FFVII's charm and humour. 

[Talk Show Host]

7 minutes ago, Thor said:

But TSH, that argument doesn't hold.

 

What exactly do you mean by changing Empire Strikes Back? Tweaking and meddling like Lucas, or remaking with new actors? The former is pants and all fans hate most of the tweaks; the latter has significantly more scope for acceptible changes. 

 

See above. 

So you would be ok with a remake of ESB which changed the original’s concepts, scenes and some important plot points? If so, ok. I would consider this an awful move and I suspect millions of fans would object.

[Talk Show Host]

15 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

1 of the 4 things I mentioned stands because of the original. It's just one of the layers. 

Different things with different aims. I'm not going to criticise The Last of Us for lacking FFVII's charm and humour. 

Ok, I think I understand what you define as “writing” when we talk about it. That’s not actually writing but at least I understand what you mean. All in all how would you rate the writing of the game compared to its contemporaries and latest FF games?

[BadgerFarmer]

20 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

Ok, I think I understand what you define as “writing” when we talk about it. That’s not actually writing but at least I understand what you mean. All in all how would you rate the writing of the game compared to its contemporaries and latest FF games?

The point being it's not the quality of the writing that's very different, it's the tone and aims. There is some bad writing in FFVII, mostly around new minor characters like Roche and Johnny, or some side quests. It's lame humour that falls flat. But around the main characters it's much better. Most of all it does a good job in fleshing out the characters - giving them nuance and creating different dynamics between them - as well as the world, just as good writing does in other games.