Final Fantasy VII Final Fallout Thread

[BadgerFarmer]

2 hours ago, grindmouse said:

And that is absolutely true. The statements are not contradictory.

You just read someone's opinion in the other thread, made no effort to engage with it or try to understand it, than ran over here to dismiss it out of hand. 

You talk about intellectual criticism, but offer none and have no interest in what anyone else says about the game if it doesn't fit your preconceptions.

All you've done so far is: throw a tantrum and deliberately spoil that there was a different ending before the game even came out; accuse people of bad faith debate when they don't agree with you; tried to discourage people from buying it when you haven't played it yourself.

I don't expect any self-reflection at this stage, but if there's a poor tone around the discussion of the game, you're chiefly responsible for it.

----------------

 Moving on...

40 minutes ago, sprite said:

Would wager Era has more people who have completed it than we have here at this point also?  It seemed like only a few of us were lucky enough to get the game early.

This has to be a factor. I'd be happy to talk more about the ending and will be writing something about it soon. There's plenty to analyse, whether you like what it does or not.

54 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

They are currently having a much better discussion than here though about the remake. Here, until now, any complaints are mostly treated with personal attacks and "witty" remarks. 

Is that fair? I think I tried to properly discuss what I thought about the characters and dialogue in at least couple of posts in response to your and others' criticisms. I mean, I massively disagree with you (and perhaps was a bit flippant at times, but weren't you?), but it's a reasonable discussion. I get some people don't like the game, or aspects of it. 

[Ferine]

Having finished the remake last night, overall I like the direction they've taken things but have reservations about where they might go from here.

 

Further specifics in a spoiler tag, lest someone click on this thread by mistake:

Spoiler

First, I find it kind of funny that, faced with the near impossible task of remaking FFVII, they essentially decided to go, "Screw it, let's just remake the bit everyone remembers then go do our own thing." Near the end of the game Aerith is basically a mouthpiece for the developers when she talks of the excitement and terror of the possibilities ahead of them, and I have a lot of time and empathy for this decision.

 

The above also reframes the weird way they've positioned the remake pre-release: it now makes sense why it isn't called Part One and their reticence to say how many games there will be. I can understand why some might see this as a betrayal, but personally I'm glad that they aren't going to be portioning out a straight remake for the next 10 years, or however long it takes: they've effectively given themselves a license to make new Final Fantasy games that are based on, but not slavish to, a classic one. I think not knowing where they'll take things is ultimately a lot more exciting for the audience on the whole, as opposed to waiting years for the next instalment of a story we're already familiar with.

 

It would be fair to view the above cynically as Square-Enix trading on past glories as there's definitely truth to that, but I also think that people's familiarity with the original game makes for an interesting dynamic. It would seem that Zack has survived in this offshoot universe, for instance, which has a bunch of ramifications, but possibly more interesting is what don't they change? How do they turn people's assumptions of what will happen on their head?

 

(Just to put it out there, I think Aerith is going to die in a similar way to the original. They've crafted the perfect setup to make people think it can be changed, setting them up for the gut punch of not being able to do anything about it, again.)

 

On the other hand, I'm highly suspicious of the use of a split reality. If it's a one-time thing for the end of Remake then great, fine, neat trick now let's move on. I'm very wary of them continuing to play in that space, however, which quickly turns into the nested reality/personality bullshit of Kingdom Hearts.

 

There's also S-E's less than stellar track record of creating original games set in the FFVII setting. Hopefully the solid foundations of Remake, and the guidelines of the original game, will help keep things on the rails, but I can certainly imagine how things might take a terrible turn.

 

Overall, then, I enjoyed Remake a lot more than I anticipated and am generally hopeful about where they might take things going forward. It could all go spectacularly wrong, but at least it'll be an interesting disaster if that is the case.

 

[b00dles]

I never thought they would be able to remake ffvii beat for beat after they showed the original trailers and so on just because it would have been ridiculously huge and cost crazy money and time to make. 

 

Once they mentioned chapters I was a bit confused as to what they were going to do as I didn't realise the midgar chapter would have the changes it would end up getting. If anything I half expected a shenmue situation and it would be a silly gap between some chapters. Or even, as some people said in the original thread, where and what would be the splits? Would certain things end up as DLC or some other cheeky bollocks?

 

Now that it's a slightly different beast, I'm intrigued to give it a go and see what we do get. 

 

I agree that "remake" probably wasn't quite the right term to use for what they've done though. It's almost like a director's cut, or something similar (even though it isn't the director of the original) but that seems like possibly a safer sub heading they could have gone for to save some of the confusion. 

 

Although for all I've heard about it, it doesn't seem like they've added anything as near as painful as 'jedi rocks' if we are likening it to a film special edition/ director's cut/ re-release. 

 

I do wonder if it would have generally been as well recieved as it seems to have been by the games review places had it been literally a beat for beat remake but just with those improved graphics. I presume probably not but who knows. 

[RubberJohnny]

3 minutes ago, b00dles said:

Although for all I've heard about it, it doesn't seem like they've added anything as near as painful as 'jedi rocks' if we are likening it to a film special edition/ director's cut/ re-release. 

 

Really?

 

Spoiler

Changing the core of the story and it's themes away from the original ones to being about alternate dimensions/time travel, vs a special effect sequence that touches none of that? 

 

[b00dles]

Just now, RubberJohnny said:

 

Really?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Changing the core of the story and it's themes away from the original ones to being about alternate dimensions/time travel, vs a special effect sequence that touches none of that? 

 

That doesn't sound nearly as bad as a terrible song number with a bad cg furball but each to their own. 

 

At least it is something different, rather than just totally unnecessary cg crap. 

[RubberJohnny]

2 minutes ago, b00dles said:

That doesn't sound nearly as bad as a terrible song number with a bad cg furball but each to their own. 

 

At least it is something different, rather than just totally unnecessary cg crap. 

 

The "unnecessary CG crap" is at least something different, look we can both use that argument.

[BadgerFarmer]

9 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

Really?

 

  Hide contents

Changing the core of the story and it's themes away from the original ones to being about alternate dimensions/time travel, vs a special effect sequence that touches none of that? 

 

I don't think it does change any of the themes. In some ways I think it recreates them by making the changes it does. And currently all it's really done is left things open, rather than commit to any particular direction.

[RubberJohnny]

14 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

I don't think it does change any of the themes.

 

Spoiler

The whole Destiny stuff was never a theme in the original?

 

[b00dles]

27 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

The "unnecessary CG crap" is at least something different, look we can both use that argument.

Ok fair enough. 

 

We can both agree to disagree too. 

 

I dunno, I've not played it yet either, I might hate it all as much as I did the prequels but I think it sounds a bit more interesting than exactly the same as before. 

I also realise that in that they did change it, maybe there would have been a lot of better ways of doing it so who knows. 

[Talk Show Host]

3 hours ago, BadgerFarmer said:

You just read someone's opinion in the other thread, made no effort to engage with it or try to understand it, than ran over here to dismiss it out of hand. 

You talk about intellectual criticism, but offer none and have no interest in what anyone else says about the game if it doesn't fit your preconceptions.

All you've done so far is: throw a tantrum and deliberately spoil that there was a different ending before the game even came out; accuse people of bad faith debate when they don't agree with you; tried to discourage people from buying it when you haven't played it yourself.

I don't expect any self-reflection at this stage, but if there's a poor tone around the discussion of the game, you're chiefly responsible for it.

----------------

 Moving on...

This has to be a factor. I'd be happy to talk more about the ending and will be writing something about it soon. There's plenty to analyse, whether you like what it does or not.

Is that fair? I think I tried to properly discuss what I thought about the characters and dialogue in at least couple of posts in response to your and others' criticisms. I mean, I massively disagree with you (and perhaps was a bit flippant at times, but weren't you?), but it's a reasonable discussion. I get some people don't like the game, or aspects of it. 

 

You massively disagree with me that the game has more or less very bad writing? So if you massively disagree with me that means you believe that it has great writing?

 

Is it really possible to believe that this game has great writing? I mean, seriously? If so, then, ok. I really have no argument against that because we have such extremely different views on what is good writing that there is no way we can actually have a useful conversation imo.

 

Also, besides the story changes -which I find totally unnecessary and a total cash grab- I also find it hypocritical that some people don't seem to be bothered by the general design of the game, the extremely limited exploration, the incredible bad side quests, the padding out, the corridor like environments and yet they destroy other games when they have these problems. And don't let me start about the press -  the level of fanboysim is probably the worst I have ever seen. I consider it a total embarrassment. 

[carlospie]

I think it's amazing that they have changed the game. The suggestion is the arbingers at the end you fight are actually cloud, tifa and barret from the future and by beating them you change the whole future. 

 

Personally I think it's a really cool idea and can't wait to see what happens next

[BadgerFarmer]

1 hour ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

You massively disagree with me that the game has more or less very bad writing? So if you massively disagree with me that means you believe that it has great writing?

 

Is it really possible to believe that this game has great writing? I mean, seriously? If so, then, ok. I really have no argument against that because we have such extremely different views on what is good writing that there is no way we can actually have a useful conversation imo.

 

Also, besides the story changes -which I find totally unnecessary and a total cash grab- I also find it hypocritical that some people don't seem to be bothered by the general design of the game, the extremely limited exploration, the incredible bad side quests, the padding out, the corridor like environments and yet they destroy other games when they have these problems. And don't let me start about the press -  the level of fanboysim is probably the worst I have ever seen. I consider it a total embarrassment. 

The padding and the side quests I've criticised all along. They're a problem for sure.

 

The rest of it, I think works very well. A lot of it works as a remake, sure, but that doesn't mean it just gets a pass on things. It means I think it finds ways to retain the feel and tone of the original in a more modern format, which is an achievement in itself. I think there's a lot of nuance in how it translates old into new, and I can appreciate that. For me, what a remake is and how it's done in games has become really interesting, with stuff like Resi 2 showing how you can play with the past, and FFVII takes that a step further. 

 

If you don't care about that, that's fine. But you can't ask for good debate then tell someone you can't have a conversation with them because they disagree. And I have to take the press comment a little personally, as someone who wrote a mostly positive review. Believe me, I've been sceptical about this project from the start and was ready for it to be poor, but I think the end result is really impressive. I stand by that and am quite capable of justifying my position without falling into mindless fanboyism, and the same can be said for many other journalists. You can't ask for good debate, if you've already assumed that what other people think is a total embarrassment.

[BadgerFarmer]

2 hours ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The whole Destiny stuff was never a theme in the original?

 

But it doesn't remove anything that was already there. And many of the original themes are explored in more detail.

[RubberJohnny]

5 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

But it doesn't remove anything that was already there. And many of the original themes are explored in more detail.

 

Spoiler

Eh? If you're replacing the core of what the plot is then yeah it obviously does. It's no longer about healing the planet, it's about someone rewriting reality. Obviously the themes in those two stories are going to be wildly different.

 

[BadgerFarmer]

4 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

  Hide contents

Eh? If you're replacing the core of what the plot is then yeah it obviously does. It's no longer about healing the planet, it's about someone rewriting reality. Obviously the themes in those two stories are going to be wildly different.

 

Spoiler

This game covers almost all the same ground as the original, in more detail. The environmental themes are still a big part of it. The ending sees the same characters setting off from Midgar as they did before, just with the knowledge there's no destiny determining their fate. What that actually means going forward, and what bearing the possible parallel timeline has on it, we don't know at the moment. But the core themes haven't been abandoned thus far. 

 

[RubberJohnny]

5 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

  Reveal hidden contents

This game covers almost all the same ground as the original, in more detail. The environmental themes are still a big part of it. The ending sees the same characters setting off from Midgar as they did before, just with the knowledge there's no destiny determining their fate. What that actually means going forward, and what bearing the possible parallel timeline has on it, we don't know at the moment. But the core themes haven't been abandoned thus far. 

 

 

Spoiler

"Thus far" is doing a bit of heavy lifting there.

 

In the original games those environmental themes continued past Midgar, because the plot was about them, now it's about timelines and rewriting reality. So saying "nothing has changed" seems false. Like, almost everything that's still there is there because the game is misdirecting to set up it's real direction as a surprise twist, rather than a statement of intent for the new series.

 

[Talk Show Host]

35 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

The padding and the side quests I've criticised all along. They're a problem for sure.

 

The rest of it, I think works very well. A lot of it works as a remake, sure, but that doesn't mean it just gets a pass on things. It means I think it finds ways to retain the feel and tone of the original in a more modern format, which is an achievement in itself. I think there's a lot of nuance in how it translates old into new, and I can appreciate that. For me, what a remake is and how it's done in games has become really interesting, with stuff like Resi 2 showing how you can play with the past, and FFVII takes that a step further. 

 

If you don't care about that, that's fine. But you can't ask for good debate then tell someone you can't have a conversation with them because they disagree. And I have to take the press comment a little personally, as someone who wrote a mostly positive review. Believe me, I've been sceptical about this project from the start and was ready for it to be poor, but I think the end result is really impressive. I stand by that and am quite capable of justifying my position without falling into mindless fanboyism, and the same can be said for many other journalists. You can't ask for good debate, if you've already assumed that what other people think is a total embarrassment.

 
Ive asked for a debate but you gave me generalizations. No comment on the writing or anything else I’ve said, except the padding  and the side quests, which clearly are not a big problem for you. In this game. I am pretty sure you find them bigger issues in other games. So it’s not me who is not debating about it. 
 

Your comments about it being a good remake because it retains the tone of the original, ehm, what does that mean exactly? How is that an achievement worthy of nine and tens? What about the gameplay issues? The corridor like environments for example? Do they get a pass along with the padding and the side quests because they remind you of the classic? How many things did you let go because they remind you of the classic? We have already established writing, side quests and padding. And how is that fair to other games? 
 

I highly doubt you can justify your position on these without using the safety net of the how much you loved the original etc.

[BadgerFarmer]

4 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

  Hide contents

"Thus far" is doing a bit of heavy lifting there.

 

In the original games those environmental themes continued past Midgar, because the plot was about them, now it's about timelines and rewriting reality. So saying "nothing has changed", or "they're actually in more depth" seems false or unlikely at best.

 

Spoiler

 I'm not going to assume anything about what's to come, and I think that's kind of the point. It's open to changing very little or a lot, but so far it's demonstrated a keenness to develop the original themes. Yeah, the rest of it could still be a clusterfuck, but there's potential for a lot of different possibilities, so I'm only going to comment on what's there.

[RubberJohnny]

8 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

  Hide contents

 I'm not going to assume anything about what's to come, and I think that's kind of the point. It's open to changing very little or a lot, but so far it's demonstrated a keenness to develop the original themes. Yeah, the rest of it could still be a clusterfuck, but there's potential for a lot of different possibilities, so I'm only going to comment on what's there.

 

Spoiler

That feels like a tremendous dodge - you're not going to talk about what the actual thread topic is about? The very changes we were discussing? Come on.

 

[BadgerFarmer]

3 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

 
Ive asked for a debate but you gave me generalizations. No comment on the writing or anything else I’ve said, except the padding  and the side quests, which clearly are not a big problem for you. In this game. I am pretty sure you find them bigger issues on other games. So it’s not me who is not debating about it. 
 

Your comments about it being a good remake because it retains the tone of the original, ehm, what does that mean exactly? How is that an achievement worthy of nine and tens? What about the gameplay issues? The corridor like environments for example? Do they get a pass along with the padding and the side quests because they remind you of the classic? How many things did you let go because they remind you of the classic? We have already established writing, side quests and padding. And how is that fair to other games? 
 

I highly doubt you can justify your position on these without using the safety net of the how much you loved the original etc.

It's difficult because you don't seem interested. I just said it's not about giving anything a pass, yet here we are again. Same accusations.

 

But I will make more of an effort tomorrow. I'm just going to bed now.

[BadgerFarmer]

3 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

  Hide contents

That feels like a tremendous dodge - you're not going to talk about what the actual thread topic is about? The very changes we were discussing? Come on.

 

I'm not going to talk about what none of us know about, no. The big change that the ending creates is removing our sense of certainty. Which I think is quite exciting, but also risky.

[Talk Show Host]

6 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

It's difficult because you don't seem interested. I just said it's not about giving anything a pass, yet here we are again. Same accusations.

 

But I will make more of an effort tomorrow. I'm just going to bed now.

I am interested if you actually provide arguments why the writing is great for example or how padding is not an issue or the bad side quests or the lack of exploration or the corridor like design so you can justify your opinion (and your review - I assume you gave it a high score?)

 

I am not interested in general statements like “I don’t give the problems a pass” because they don’t provide  any actual conversation.

[RubberJohnny]

18 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

I'm not going to talk about what none of us know about, no. The big change that the ending creates is removing our sense of certainty. Which I think is quite exciting, but also risky.

 

Spoiler

I mean even commenting on what's there, it would be a very different plotline without the time ghosts pulling everything to keep it on track - Barret dead, Zach alive, not the mention the various extras when the plate fell, Cloud not going on the second bombing mission, the Shinra boss surviving, Aerith can now do the lifestream manipulation stuff that required her dying before.

 

Now they're out of the picture, even assuming a similar pace of changes as we've already seen, it gets pretty different, pretty quickly (and that's assuming they'll still be mostly following the events of the original, and not, say, chasing nu-Sepiroth between timelines), and there's simply too many on the nose lines of dialogue in those last few hours about how now everything can change to assume it'll be business as usual.

 

[sprite]

Well I’m well confused. Finished it.
 

The big spoiler I read in the main thread before it got deleted turned out to not be true at all  

 

I already knew

 

it was going to be twisty turny and retelling the story and all that jazz

 

But I swear I read 

 

Cloud dies

 

But that didnt happen.

So whoever posted it must have been mistaken or just trying to ruin people’s fun.

 

If that’s the whole reason people aren’t playing this then they really should...

 

Man, what a game.

 

I will catch up on the rest later...

[sprite]

Anyway, having experienced it for myself, I’m all kinds of onboard with this.  For many reasons.

 

Huge “I’ve finished it” spoilers.

 

 

Our guys are going off chasing Sephiroth, as they did before.

I can look forward to seeing the rest of the world, as I did before.

Except it feels fresh again. For the first time in 23 years. There’s an element of not knowing what comes, as we embark on the journey with the characters.

The end said the story will continue so I’m gonna believe it will, optimist that I am.

 

BIGGS IS FUCKING ALIVE!!!! THAT BEAUTIFUL BOY.

 

Red XIII is boss.

 

Sephiroth is as much as menace as ever. If not more so.

 

The Remake is that he is trying to remake the story.

 

 

so many feels!!!! 

 

[Harrisown]

I’m on chapter 9 right now.

I think this game is just solid great.

I still can’t believe you can’t use the quick menu outside battle and items require ATB but slowly,very slowly the game is giving me thing to help along the way.

I just wish the cut scenes weren’t so DAMN LOUD.

 

 

[sprite]

FWIW I like corridors because I’m too old and busy for too much indecisiveness in my gaming.    I know I am in the minority but I’ve not cared since FFX and actually enjoyed just rolling along with the plot.

 

FFXV is the first mainline FF I’ve not finished since 7 because the open world stuff loses me.  I end up not being able to play for ages and losing my thread and not knowing where to start so I don’t.

[spork]

53 minutes ago, sprite said:

Well I’m well confused. Finished it.
 

The big spoiler I read in the main thread before it got deleted turned out to not be true at all  

 

I already knew

 

 

  Hide contents

it was going to be twisty turny and retelling the story and all that jazz

 

 

But I swear I read 

 

 

  Hide contents

Cloud dies

 

But that didnt happen.

So whoever posted it must have been mistaken or just trying to ruin people’s fun.

 

If that’s the whole reason people aren’t playing this then they really should...

 

Man, what a game.

 

I will catch up on the rest later...

Not played the remake but I read that

 

Spoiler

Barret dies. Not seen any suggestion about Cloud.

 

Does that happen?

 

[pledge]

Spoiler

Yes but no

 

[Thor]

Also finished it tonight. My thoughts mirror Sprite's, I'm all in for the next game. My brother is just behind me in terms of finishing this, so I'll get his reaction tomorrow. 

 

As for some of the, ahem, "debate" in this thread...

 

TSH, ease off a bit, eh? The script is gash, yes, with every villian a moustache-twirling cliche (sephiroth excepted), but the overall story is very well done. Yes, there's too much padding, but the gameplay is a fantastic modern take on the old FFVII system.

 

RubberJohnny, have you actually played the game, or is this Mass Effect 3 all over again?

 

Grindmouse... 

 

I suggest you play the game, grindmouse.