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Stopharage

Final Fantasy VII Final Fallout Thread

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Talk of the differences between the original Final Fantasy VII and the new version dominated the FF VII thread yesterday and derailed discussions of how people were actually enjoying the new version. 

 

If you're unaware of the controversies that have arisen with this new version, then best bet is to get out now and leave this thread alone. From this point onwards, things might be revealed about New Improved Final Fantasy VII that you don't want to know about. Go away and play it. 

 

If you want to discuss the ethics of what was promised vs what was delivered then please do in this thread. If you want to discuss your in-game experience then pop into 

 

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I'll make a start here as I want to talk about this, and there will be a trickle of others over the coming days / weeks, even though the first impressions are pretty rosy.

 

I'll put it all in spoilers in case anyone stumbles in here accidentally:

 

 

FFVII Remake is not the remake we have been led to believe for 5 years. And I don't mean there are plot deviations, like with RE2make or RE3make.
It's literally not a remake, and this is something which is only revealed during the final chapters of the game.

To summarise, the game follows the plot of the Midgar section of FFVII, with more fleshed out environments and character work. Which is what everyone wanted and why impressions are positive. However, there are a new mysterious enemy called the Whispers, of watchmen of fate or something, and they look and behave like Harry Potter dementors.

They appear whenever the events of this game look to be deviating from the original, to "course correct".
At the end of the game it is revealed Sephiroth has travelled through time to change the events of FFVII, prompting the appearance of the watchmen.
They form the end boss battle and are destroyed, leaving the characters to continue without being bound to the fateful events from the original game.

So, some background points:

 

  • A lot of the supplementary material to FFVII came a decade later, and is controversial and divisive.
  • There were concerns about how much Advent Children & Crisis Core would be integrated into the remake.
  • The direction Square have taken is beyond the worst case scenario - they're now an integral part of a meta-narrative.
  • This means fans waiting 23 years still do not have a remake of FFVII. They have a continuation of the divisive supplementary material.
  • This style of storytelling belongs in the Kingdom Hearts series, and doesn't make sense within the context of the original FFVII.

 

Alternate reality plots are self-reflexive and provide meta-commentary on the original product. That makes sense in something like say, BTTF Part 2 or Into the Spiderverse. But parallel dimensions can be applied to literally any story or franchise, and are usually lazy devices which undermine internal coherence. By definition they are inferior, supplementary and non-canon. They're used in comics to solve logistical issues, to bring different adaptations into one core canon - usually for financial reasons rather than creative ones. There are some good implementations, but the decision to introduce this type of storytelling to a FFVII "Remake" is likely due to the  risk of reproducing the entire game across a series due to budgetary demands, but also because Nomura and co weren't interested in a straight remake - they've been fucking with this story every since the game was released, and each change diminished the quality of the original.

FFVII was a huge game transcending the JRPG franchise niche, it's not just another FF game. Square have made a remake which panders to fans of KH, fans of FF as a franchise, but not fans wanting a remake of the game they played 20+ years ago. This even comes across in some of the character design and overblown Twin Snakes-esque cut scenes.

There is an argument here that by naming it "FFVII Remake" and keeping it's true nature hidden, Square have cynically and deliberately misled people.
Some people are arguing the plot was tired or rubbish anyway and they're excited forg something new, which surely misses the point of a game sold as FFVII Remake?

I am gutted this isn't the first part of the saga I wanted, but a KH-esque continuation of the worst impulses of Square's storytelling. And given we're in lockdown, I hadn't appreciated how much I was looking forward to playing this. I don't think my initial response was an overreaction, it is a megaton that Square pulled a bait-and-switch. Some will be fine with it, but I expect many will be unsuspectingly enjoying the game until they reach the closing chapters.
 

After reading / and watching the direction of the game, I sold my copy and will wait for digital sale. I will enjoy the nostalgia, but as a long-form narrative the "remake" project is DOA.

 

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I would have thought that spending 40 hours playing a game that you already think is "beyond the worst case scenario" is not going to be the best use of your time.

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3 minutes ago, PK said:

I would have thought that spending 40 hours playing a game that you already think is "beyond the worst case scenario" is not going to be the best use of your time.

 

I enjoy the demo and there is some value to be had playing through a recreation of events from Midgar.


But it’s <£20 wait for sale.

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Sounds like you're cutting off your nose to spite your face there, GM. As an FFVII fan for all of those 23 years, I think it's a fantastic retread of the original, packed full of nostalgia as it hits almost all the same plot points and fleshes them out in great detail. It's also a very good game in its own right.

 

As for the ending, I'm not keen on the way it's told, but the implications of it are really exciting, and clearly made for fans, since no one else would appreciate what they've done.

Spoiler

Remember when you left Midgar for the first time to set out on a grand adventure and had no idea what was coming next? What if they stayed faithful to that feeling, rather than a strict order of events?

 

BTW, if anyone's wondering whether the change in ending is an excuse to not bother with more episodes, the final thing you see before the credits roll is

Spoiler

a message that "The unknown journey will continue".

 

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Criticism of something you want to like isn’t a personal insult.
Try to see past it and think rationally , critically and factually.

 

Even if you are happy with the changes, is this the game you were expecting? That was hyped for 5 years? “Hey we remade this thing you love, but we changed it into something completely new using this awful plot device”! 

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2 minutes ago, grindmouse said:

Criticism of something you want to like isn’t a personal insult.
Try to see past it and think rationally , critically and factually.

 

Even if you are happy with the changes, is this the game you were expecting?

 

From the promotional material I was expecting a remake that would tread the same old story, padded out with fan-service side quests and with a combat system that wouldn't be as good as the original's and graphics with none of its charm. I had no interest in playing that for 40 hours. Now I've heard what they've actually done, I'm really looking forward to giving it a go. Shadowy figures who insist on the characters sticking to the original game's story is a funny, interesting bit of metacommentary.

 

Also - nobody is personally insulting you or being insulted by you. So far you've had two rational and critical responses. This sort of immediate personal defensiveness whenever someone disagrees with you about media is why you collect negs, FYI.

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8 minutes ago, PK said:

From the promotional material I was expecting a remake that would tread the same old story, padded out with fan-service side quests and with a combat system that wouldn't be as good as the original's and graphics with none of its charm. I had no interest in playing that for 40 hours. Now I've heard what they've actually done, I'm really looking forward to giving it a go. Shadowy figures who insist on the characters sticking to the original game's story is a funny, interesting bit of metacommentary.

 

So from your description: do you think you were someone in the market for a straight remake? Or rather, was this marketed at you? The game still has the same side quests and combat system you expected to be inferior, but a funny metacommentary undermining the original narrative is what seals it?
 

How do you think fans would’ve reacted if RE2make had featured Wesker travelling back through time to alter events? Badly, I expect.

 

I’m resigned to getting negs/tears whatever.

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Grindmouse seems perpetually confused why people aren’t following his exact trajectory on this, which was seemingly...

- play and enjoy demo 

- not wanting to spoil himself

- spoiling himself

- getting really mad about the spoiler

- dropping spoilers/“spoilers” for loads of others to happen across in the main thread a week before it even came out

- act like a know it all and be outraged that people wanted to enjoy the game in spite of the frenzy (“I know something you don’t know!”)

- receive the game

- not play the game

- Make repeated calls for people to try and discuss the matter in a balanced way

- get mad that people don’t agree with him

- delete all his posts and his thread 

- sell the game

- one week later; repeat

 

Man, I really want you to play this @grindmouse. You’d love it. Sigh.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, sprite said:

Man, I really want you to play this @grindmouse. You’d love it. Sigh.


First part of your post is not relevant to the discussion. Exactly the sort of thing, which derailed this thread first time round.

 

I have watched reviews and I’m reading responses of people on other forums who are reaching the end and are extremely disappointed.


The writing and overall direction is terrible.

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1 minute ago, grindmouse said:


First part of your post is not relevant to the discussion. Exactly the sort of crap that derailed this thread first time round.

 

I have watched reviews and I’m reading responses of people on other forums who are reaching the end and are extremely disappointed.


The writing and overall direction is terrible.


Can you please explain your motivations in continuing to discuss a game you are not playing with people who are?

 

Its just really difficult to have a meaningful conversation about it with someone whose response is only ever going to be “but other people on the internet think it sucks,” when we are here forming our opinions for ourselves.

 

 

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Respectfully sprite I am going to put you on topic ignore in order to avoid accusations of shitting up the thread by engaging in a back and forth.
 

I don’t need to play the game to understand it isn’t what was advertised. And I do not share your enthusiasm for the changes. 
 

If Square had said: “We’re remaking FFVII but it will be an alternate retelling so events will happen differently” - but they’d still maintained a coherent internal narrative - absolutely fine, sign me up.

 

But Square said: “We’re remaking FFVII” - that’s it.


And they secretly made changes involving genuinely horrible tropes like alternate dimensions / time travel and an on-the-nose “hands of fate” villain. That’s a flat out nope, it’s ruined.

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:lol: 

OK, i invite someone else to ask him the question that he won’t answer :lol: 

 

Back on topic, then.

 

For me, I have been so excited about a FFVII remake for so long.  But as I play through I realise that a blow-by-blow retelling wasn’t what I wanted, after all.  It works well for action heavy games (Resident Evil, perhaps?) but with Final Fantasy games there is so much that is basically just storytelling, it would be like reading the same book 20 years later and knowing exactly what will happen.

 

Having a novel experience keeps it fresh.  I know where the story will be heading, but I don’t know how it will get there.  The overarching themes are the same, but there will be twists along the way that keep me interested.

 

If it were exactly the same, I wouldn’t feel like :wub: about Biggs, Wedge and Jessie.

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I'm fascinated by the direction they've taken with this. I've tried to get through FF7 a couple of times over the years but never got too far in (maybe halfway through disc 2 at most), so I don't have the same reverence for the game a lot of people do. Not got a PS4 but when I eventually get one (or a PS5!) this will be something I really want to try

 

I've listened to two podcasts (Axe of the Blood God and Waypoint) with two die hard FF7 fans giving their opinions. Kat Bailey on AotBG had finished the game and had a "I never thought this would be finished anyway so whatever - it's weird - It's a good game but it's weird" attitude and asked about whether she thought they'd ever produce part 2 her response was basically "fuck it, who knows!?".

 

Austin Walker on Waypoint was massively hyped and enjoying all the changes but only about 10 hours in.

 

From what I can tell they've basically FF12'd it, in that they've started making one game, got lost in the process and ended up making another. The same thing happened with FF13 versus / FF15 and a similar thing with FF14. Square have had no idea what to do with FF for well over a decade now, the pressure seems to be too great, multiple directors walking in and out of projects etc. If anything remaking 7 is an even greater undertaking then making a new numbered game. I doubt there's been a conscious bait and switch or attempt to trick people - I think it's more "oh shit, this is what we managed to come up with... We've just got to put it out!".

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54 minutes ago, sprite said:

Having a novel experience keeps it fresh.  I know where the story will be heading, but I don’t know how it will get there.  The overarching themes are the same, but there will be twists along the way that keep me interested.

 

If it were exactly the same, I wouldn’t feel like :wub: about Biggs, Wedge and Jessie.


I couldnt actually topic ignore you from mobile. :lol:

 

But on this point I absolutely agree. I welcome the small-medium changes.
 

It’s the big stuff that has me feeling betrayed and disappointed. I thought the dislike for Advent Children was pretty unanimous, and this goes much further than that.

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50 minutes ago, Thor said:

I thought you'd sold your copy, grindmouse. 


I have. I flipped it for £50 profit as well. #scumbag
 

The wait for a remake of FFVII continues. Maybe in 2040.

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52 minutes ago, grindmouse said:

 

So from your description: do you think you were someone in the market for a straight remake? Or rather, was this marketed at you? The game still has the same side quests and combat system you expected to be inferior, but a funny metacommentary undermining the original narrative is what seals it?
 

How do you think fans would’ve reacted if RE2make had featured Wesker travelling back through time to alter events? Badly, I expect.

 

No, I definitely wasn't in the market for a straight remake. I suppose you could say it was marketed at me given I'm a fan of the original, but it didn't really interest me because I thought it would be a beat-for-beat retelling of a story I've heard before, minus the charming graphics and turn-based battles.

 

Now that I've heard that it's not the same story and sounds like it might actually be (in part at least) a story about making a FF7 remake, I'm more interested and willing to give the graphics and battle system a go. It hasn't undermined it for me, it's done the opposite.

 

I can understand why you'd be a bit disappointed if you wanted exactly the same story. But a "betrayal" which is "beyond the worst case scenario" seems a bit OTT.

 

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I don't think the work 'remake' on its own implies a blow by blow repeat of the original in the first place. A 'full remake' suggests a commitment to do the whole thing, but not exactly the same as before, and at the moment it seems the story will continue with further releases.

 

There is a question over whether it's feasible to do the whole thing to current generation visual standards. This game is padded perhaps in part because it took so much effort to create the locations they had to get a whole game out of them. If they take a similar approach to the whole journey, it could span 5 games and take 20 years. This is a question we've all been wondering about for ages, so it's hardly a surprise that it's created an opening for some changes.

 

Regardless, the current situation for me is more interesting than the straight/faithful remake anyway, and I say that as someone who would have welcomed more of the same. Vague spoilers:

Spoiler

The sense of stepping into the unknown is worth much more, and the way the game so heavily indulges us in our desire for nostalgia, only to then turn it around at the end and challenge us to look to the future rather than the past is really something.

 

My only regret is that it wasn't a complete surprise, as I had it spoiled for me on here last week just as I was coming towards the end.

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11 minutes ago, grindmouse said:

I have. 

Then what are you even doing here? You're now worse than smitty in the Tomb Raider thread. 

 

You're not adding anything of value to the discussion, and no-one wants to engage with you on this. 

 

Please leave this alone. 

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To be fair this whole thread has been created off the main thread to  talk about the problems Grindmouse has with the game. Seems pretty shitty to tell him to leave a thread specifically for that purpose.

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I’ve watched a few videos and it looks absolutely fucking amazing, will definitely buy it at some point - and I welcome any changes they’ve made, I’ve got the original too if I want to play that. 

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8 minutes ago, El Spatula said:

Cool I'll go start a thread about my problems with other games I haven't played.

 

I wonder did this rule about only talking about a game you've played happen in the Fallout 76 thread? Or the Anthem thread?

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Dunno, don't tend to post critically and repeatedly about games I haven't played because I haven't played them.

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1. The mod team reviewed the situation and thought the changes warranted a thread to discuss the fallout from the game, recognising it’s divisive nature.

 

2. I’m surprised by the amount of people welcoming any changes no matter how severe. As though FFVII isn’t considered a GOAT and needed a serious rework. Ignoring for a moment this isn’t even a reworking of FVII’s narrative in the traditional sense.

 

3. Nomura is no Kojima. Was this really the game to experiment with these ham-fisted meta concepts? And if so, should it have been more honestly marketed?

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2 minutes ago, Zael said:

 

I wonder did this rule about only talking about a game you've played happen in the Fallout 76 thread? Or the Anthem thread?

 

The Paper Mario thread, surely ;) 

 

DHnAr3w.jpg

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8 minutes ago, grindmouse said:

1. The mod team reviewed the situation and thought the changes warranted a thread to discuss the fallout from the game, recognising it’s divisive nature.

 

2. I’m surprised by the amount of people echoing the  sentiment of welcoming any changes no matter how severe. As though FFVII isn’t considered a GOAT and needed a serious reworking. Ignoring for a moment this isn’t even a reworking of FVII’s narrative in the traditional sense.

 

3. Nomura is no Kojima. Was this really the game to experiment with these meta concepts?

I don’t think art is that sacred, it’s there to be fucked with, changed, reimagined. 
 

If Nintendo wanted to do a remake of Ocarina of Time, one of my all time favourites, I wouldn’t mind in the slightest what they did with it. 
 

I watched Happy Console Gamer’s review of this and he said there’s stuff in FF7R that he’s never seen in a video game before, that excites me way more than a straight fan pleasing remake. I love having my expectations confounded. 

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I haven't played it but I think when I do get around to it, knowing what the game isn't will allow me to actually enjoy what it is.

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43 minutes ago, grindmouse said:

1. The mod team reviewed the situation and thought the changes warranted a thread to discuss the fallout from the game, recognising it’s divisive nature.

 

2. I’m surprised by the amount of people welcoming any changes no matter how severe. As though FFVII isn’t considered a GOAT and needed a serious rework. Ignoring for a moment this isn’t even a reworking of FVII’s narrative in the traditional sense.

 

3. Nomura is no Kojima. Was this really the game to experiment with these ham-fisted meta concepts? And if so, should it have been more honestly marketed?


Well that’s just the thing, I consider FFVII one of my favourite games of all time. If it ain’t broke, etc.  Just to be devils advocate.

 

It’d be like if they tried to remake Firefly, beat for beat.  Don’t mess with perfection :wub: 

 

FFVII:Remake is more like BSG for me. STARBUCKS A GIRL WTF?! type thing.

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