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Mr Tony

Formula One - 2020

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3 hours ago, morcs said:

Anyone know the best grandstand at Texas? End of the DRS straight?

 

I don't know Texas but for the race that sounds about right.  (T12)

 

But if I were there all weekend I'd want to make sure I watched some practice from the sequence from T3-9 too.

 

image.png.3fb2bccc2f59dc966cb433e4222061e2.png

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I've not actually been to the circuit but I have been to Austin (although you fly right over the circuit when you land, sit on of the left for the best view). So the only thing I can tell you is that when you are not at the circuit, go to Sixth street in downtown Austin. It is AMAZING.

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Let me clarify what I said. 

 

If the rule makers change the rules because of something on your car, then it is clearly going to be illegal or have an advantage for you.

The Mercedes KERS system has always been borderline illegal because its parts are arranged in a different way to the "standard" setup on the other cars.

 

And F1 has form for this. Back in the 1970s Tyrell came up with the six-wheeler and the fan, both of which the FIA rushed to ban - and outlawed after a couple of races, not a whole season. That's why I said the current lot are inept.

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3 hours ago, kiroquai said:

The Tyrrell six-wheeler actually lasted almost two full seasons and didn’t get banned - it just became apparent the concept wasn’t the golden ticket Uncle Ken and Derek Gardener thought it would be and it was also really expensive getting custom smaller tyres made for them too ;)

 

As for the Brabham fan car, Brabham kinda came to a gentleman’s agreement for safety’s sake that they’d withdraw it and allow the FIA to ban the idea. They could have fought it and possibly won if the FIA had tried to ban it (it didn’t actually break any rules), but it became clear when Lauda won in Sweden by destroying the otherwise similarly ridiculously grippy Lotus 79’s without even having to try that if one of the fan cars had gone off in a future race when being pushed it would have pretty much turned into an aircraft accident. Gordon Murray effectively told the FIA what wording they needed to make sure fan cars couldn’t be made :)

 

Edit: upon further research, the BT46B had actually been cleared for the rest of 1978 - however, looks like Bernie was trying to make political manoeuvres at the time and was worried that pissing off the likes of Tyrrell and Lotus would leave him without allies in the sport. As such, Bernie agreed to pull the plug on the car to avoid this and the safety line (whilst entirely true) was more of a PR-friendly way of explaining why!


Listen to the F1 podcast with Gordon Murray (and just in general as it’s fab) as he talks about this a fair bit!

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On 23/02/2020 at 10:34, morcs said:

Anyone know the best grandstand at Texas? End of the DRS straight?

 

I'd highly recommend Turn 15 on the map Dudley provided above - you get a clear view of the end of the straight and an excellent view of the fiddly little section after, which is where the majority of the action tends to take place during the races :)

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, kiroquai said:

 

I'd highly recommend Turn 15 on the map Dudley provided above - you get a clear view of the end of the straight and an excellent view of the fiddly little section after, which is where the majority of the action tends to take place during the races :)

 

Awesome, thank you :) 

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17 hours ago, merman said:

And F1 has form for this. Back in the 1970s Tyrell came up with the six-wheeler and the fan, both of which the FIA rushed to ban - and outlawed after a couple of races, not a whole season. That's why I said the current lot are inept.

 

Kiro rather covered it but neither of those things were banned until well after they stopped racing.

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I stand corrected then. Still doesn't make the current situation any less ridiculous.

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See, that's the area of Formula One I find most fascinating; the grey areas in the rules that allow some creative thinking. Especially these days - the rules are so strict that we tend to end up with a bunch of very similar cars, so having something that creates such a 'wow' moment across the entire paddock as the DAS did last week is pretty exciting in a way. Unfortunately from a competitive standpoint (although it's still not entirely clear how much of a performance gain it will yield) it's ended up being the dominant team that's come up with it, but it's a tremendous engineering achievement.

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DAS might not get much of a run out after all. I do wonder what happens if / when someone in the paddock gets exposed to Corona. Do they just shut up shop for 2 weeks?

 

Is there a rule for what happens if lots of events don't run? Does the championship get cancelled? The oracle would know. Paging @kiroquai  to the thread!

 

 

 

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My guess is that every race that is cancelled is replaced by Barcelona. It's convenient for the teams and law of averages says that eventually there will be a good race there if we have enough of them.

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2 hours ago, ryodi said:

My guess is that every race that is cancelled is replaced by Barcelona. It's convenient for the teams and law of averages says that eventually there will be a good race there if we have enough of them.

 

Careful now, a decent race there is a bit of a stretch.....

 

In case you were wondering the last time a decent race was held there was 1991.

 

:hat:

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It's an interesting question really, and there's not really much precedent for this. The only time Formula One has had mass changes due to something was back in 1955, and that was due to the Le Mans disaster rather than any pandemic or political situation. Back then it was also somewhat easier to cancel or postpone events as there wasn't the amount of money involved, or media coverage to take into account.

 

Think it's very much a case of wait and see. I read somewhere that F1 may take the opinion that, as seemingly the virus is (very simplistically) a new strain of the flu, it's not something potent/dangerous enough to warrant cancelling events unless the country involved is a noted epicentre such as China or potentially Bahrain. Of course, this kind of misses the point in that until there's some kind of cure/plan/idea on how to contain it, travelling around the world potentially spreading the thing will increase the strain on each country's health systems with new cases having to be dealt with.

 

During the 2009/2010 flu pandemic F1 kept on rolling as per usual so I am half expecting that things will run as usual this time around, but the longer it takes to find a vaccine and bring this one under control the more the media will roll with it, the more general panic will spread and the more questions will be raised. More than anything, I think there's going to be a very narrow PR wire for the sport to tread over the upcoming few months.

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19 hours ago, merman said:

I stand corrected then. Still doesn't make the current situation any less ridiculous.

 

And this is where we disagree because I don't see a problem with the current situation.  A team has designed something clever, they get to use it.  It's already against the 2021 rules so other teams have a decision to make. Where's the issue?

 

They didn't ban the system for 2021 after Merc made it, those rules were published months ago.

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11 hours ago, Dudley said:

 

And this is where we disagree because I don't see a problem with the current situation.  A team has designed something clever, they get to use it.  It's already against the 2021 rules so other teams have a decision to make. Where's the issue?

 

They didn't ban the system for 2021 after Merc made it, those rules were published months ago.


I’d have thought they did change the 2021 rule in response to Merc approaching them with “we’re planning this for next year...”. Seems odd to do so otherwise, and if the other teams were really on the ball they could have picked up that someone had spotted something new there.

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We'll never truly find that out I suspect but I believe said rules have been there since October.

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10 hours ago, MrPogo said:


I’d have thought they did change the 2021 rule in response to Merc approaching them with “we’re planning this for next year...”. Seems odd to do so otherwise, and if the other teams were really on the ball they could have picked up that someone had spotted something new there.

 

Yup.  I'm sure Adrian Newey says somewhere (I think his book) that the first thing he looks for is what's changed in the regs and tries to work out how to get round the wording if it's vague in any way.

 

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The other thing to watch is a Frank Dernie quote where he said "Whenever they had something dodgy that was a little bit hidden, they always put something on the car that was very visible but didn't have an advantage in the hope of making competitors chase the visible thing instead...

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Ted just referred to the pink car as Tracing Point. This ticked me and made me laugh more than it probably should have. 

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On 26 February 2020 at 09:58, Dudley said:

 

And this is where we disagree because I don't see a problem with the current situation.  A team has designed something clever, they get to use it.  It's already against the 2021 rules so other teams have a decision to make. Where's the issue?

 

They didn't ban the system for 2021 after Merc made it, those rules were published months ago.

 

F1 is at its best when the best drivers are racing in closely matched cars on interesting circuits.

With the exception of Austin and possibly Kazakhstan, the new tracks are increasingly boring.

 

Loopholes are not exciting racing.

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53 minutes ago, merman said:

 

F1 is at its best when the best drivers are racing in closely matched cars on interesting circuits.

With the exception of Austin and possibly Kazakhstan, the new tracks are increasingly boring.

 

Loopholes are not exciting racing.

 

When was the last time that happened? The 60s before engineers started exploiting downforce? For as long as I've been into the sport there's been one car that has something on it that makes it stand out from the rest in terms of performance.

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13 hours ago, merman said:

 

F1 is at its best when the best drivers are racing in closely matched cars on interesting circuits.

With the exception of Austin and possibly Kazakhstan, the new tracks are increasingly boring.

 

Loopholes are not exciting racing.

 

Then go watch a spec series, there's plenty of them. F1 is about technical progress, might I, entirely non-sarcastically recommend the BTCC.

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15 hours ago, wev said:

 

When was the last time that happened? The 60s before engineers started exploiting downforce? For as long as I've been into the sport there's been one car that has something on it that makes it stand out from the rest in terms of performance.

 

Arguably it was even worse back then. There are a couple of races from the mid-late 60's on YouTube (and a reasonable chunk of 70's, 80's and 90's stuff) and watching them back, you realise that the racing was no closer back then than it is back now in a lot of ways. Cars could follow each other much closer, but the disparity in equipment was bigger.

 

An example, here is the grid for the 1967 (last year before aero was beginning to get played with) Monaco Grand Prix. Chose Monaco as it was the shortest track at the time and hence arguably should have hidden the gaps between the cars as much as possible compared to somewhere like, for instance, Spa or the Nurburgring.

66monaco.PNG.ed60856950b089219319d606804d5229.PNG

2.4 seconds covering the top ten. 1.2 covering the top 4. Hulme won the race by a lap from Hill, who was a lap ahead of Amon in third who in turn was a lap ahead of McLaren in fourth (Bandini was set to be first or second, but unfortunately tragedy intervened).

 

There are things I'd like changed with the modern breed of F1 cars of course - it'd be nice for them to run closer to each other, and I do agree with the point about the circuits that we get now. Abu Dhabi and Shanghai are certainly not Spa or Suzuka, or even close. The revamped Zandvoort looks fun, mind. But in general, I feel the racing last year was actually pretty good. Verstappen and Leclerc had some excellent fights. The midfield was usually mad (not that the TV cameras caught it often, which is another thing that needs to change).

 

Hopefully this year Red Bull can take the fight to Mercedes and give us Max vs. Lewis most weekends. I'd include Ferrari in that but testing isn't looking particularly promising on that front right now.

 

Incidentally, here's the grid for the 1987 Monaco Grand Prix. That period is often referred to as the Golden Age of F1, but...

 

87monaco.PNG.e553f1d56abeddd0104f4ac6a26142c7.PNG

 

1.7 seconds cover the top three,  3.7 covering the top ten!

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Oh yeah, F1 now is closer than it ever was, you don't even need to go that far back, let's choose another short track in 1992.

 

image.thumb.png.bad15c4cb2e10ac38a9812a06c659c6b.png

 

The slowest qualifier is 5 seconds back.  The slowest CAR is 23 seconds back (but to be fair the 2nd slowest car is only 8 off).

 

Using Q1, last year front to back of the grid was only 2.4 seconds.  Russell's williams  in 18th would have been behind only other Williams in 1992. (And incidentally, pace of change, is 5 seconds quicker than those cars).

 

In the gap only between the 2 Williams there were 15 cars in 2019.

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Didn't you have to do a complete lap for it to count?

 

What's all the spite aimed at the pink mercedes? anyone could have gone and copied last years car and seen a significant gain in doing so, right?

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