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Anne Summers

Films from not that long ago that seem a bit "off" these days

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9 minutes ago, Keiths_Dad said:

I haven't seen it mentioned, but the plot of Dirty Dancing is essentially a man in his 30s grooming and then having sex with a 16 year old girl.

 

I had the benefit of only watching it for the first time in 2011, but it baffles me how this was ever held up as a romantic classic.


Eh? Frances is 17 and Johnny is 25.

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1 minute ago, ZOK said:


Eh? Frances is 17 and Johnny is 25.

Is that right? Still a bit off, even if it is, and Swayze himself was in his 30s when they made it.

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It's also quite progressive for it's time in that it's about rich and poor as well as unwanted pregnancy. 

 

Also Johnny had no interest in her to begin with so it isn't a traditional grooming situation.

 

Seems you forgot quite a bit of it in the past 9 years too :P

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9 minutes ago, Keiths_Dad said:

Is that right? Still a bit off, even if it is, and Swayze himself was in his 30s when they made it.


Well if you are going to imagine it’s something it’s clearly not, why stop there? If you add ten years to his age and take ten years off hers, it’s even worse.
 

Jennifer Grey was 27 when she made the film, by the way. Ban this sick filth!

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4 minutes ago, ZOK said:


Well if you are going to imagine it’s something it’s clearly not, why stop there? If you add ten years to his age and take ten years off hers, it’s even worse.
 

Jennifer Grey was 27 when she made the film, by the way. Ban this sick filth!

Sounds like I got this all wrong, I'm happy to admit that. I've clearly misremembered it.

 

We should ban it though, it's rubbish.

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Just now, Keiths_Dad said:

Sounds like I got this all wrong, I'm happy to admit that. I've clearly misremembered it.

 

We should ban it though, it's rubbish.


You think Dirty Dancing is rubbish?!

 

Sweet Jesus.

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I probably prefer strictly ballroom but considering when it came out, it's much better than a lot of other "chick flicks" (boak*) of it's time. 

 

* although obvious, the idea that all other film genres are man films, or men couldn't possibly enjoy a drama about relationships or whatever is also insulting to everyone not just women

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11 minutes ago, ZOK said:


You think Dirty Dancing is rubbish?!

 

Sweet Jesus.

Yes. I might not remember all of it's plot points clearly, but I can remember being thoroughly unimpressed with it.

 

Anyway, I'm done getting Dirty Dancing wrong now.

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Just now, Keiths_Dad said:

Yes. I might not remember all of it's plot points clearly, but I can remember being thoroughly unimpressed with it.

 

Anyway, I'm done getting Dirty Dancing wrong now.


Upload a version of you singing whatever you can remember of ‘She’s Like the Wind’ and we can let this go.

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17 minutes ago, Harsin said:

I guess you could say he didn’t have the time of his life.

 

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Some sweet merch still available if you search for Dirty Dancing:

 

 

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4 hours ago, sir podger said:

By no means a great movie but what was considered to be a harmless product of it's time, Revenge of the nerds. The standard geeks get one up one jocks genre, except for the bit when they rig a girls house full of cameras and film them showering, or when the lead character dresses like the boyfriend of the girl he is infatuated with and tricks her into having sex.

 

Revenge of the Nerds was the greatest film! Well it was for a short time when I was about 13, I rented it loads. 

 

There's also the bit where they then sell the topless pics they have taken without consent.

 

Still doesnt seem as bad as that Ace Ventura ending though! 

 

Any comedies over 5 years old or so are going to seem a bit dodgy I think, 

 

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I've never seen Revenge of the Nerds but American Splendor seemed to describe its story pretty thoroughly:

 

 

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2 hours ago, b00dles said:

Can you not appreciate that if you're a woman watching that you're portrayed as only good for a massage and too stupid to understand the important "man" conversation?

Ok you might not read it like that but that isn't the point, it's the general depiction of her, she doesn't even get a line, or "I'll see you later" she's just dismissed. Like how the men used to retire to the lounge for whiskey and cigars and the women expected to talk about sewing or babies back in the day.

Where does it imply she's only good for a massage and too stupid to understand their conversation? Maybe he was massaging her 5 minutes earlier, and isn't it pretty obvious he doesn't want her in the conversation because Felix is probably delivering some sensitive information? Why would he say 'I'll see you later?' Why does that make it suddenly ok? Do you always say bye to people when you've finished a conversation with them? I certainly don't. Even so, him not saying goodbye doesn't instantly make it misogynistic. The rest of your comments are just straw man arguments.

 

2 hours ago, b00dles said:

Also that clip and your missus saying she's going to have some girl talk with her friends is completely different. You also tell it like she's phrased it more like "you'll be bored, we're going to have girl talk, so you might want to do something else" not "go away you stupid girl" as bond does it. 

How is it completely different, except that I'm not a secret agent? What makes you think he's telling her to 'go away, you stupid girl'? Why isn't he saying it in the same jovial way my girlfriend says it to me? You've completely inserted your own narrative into it and it doesn't come across the way you're suggesting to me at all.

 

2 hours ago, b00dles said:

Again, you might not see it like that, or think there's anything wrong with it and your wife might not either but that's completely beside the point, some people will read it like that, it might even be subconscious but it is there and that's how it would be and is read by a lot of people, which is why it was brought up. 

Then if people are reading it wrong, subconsciously or not, isn't that their own issue?

 

I can totally see how people could find it problematic if that's what you're looking for and viewed in conjunction with other questionable things Bond does, but based on that clip alone it's a stretch to insert all the narratives that you have and tell me that's how I should see it. I'd much rather see it for the playful bit of affection that's actually in the clip, rather than trying to insert a load of stuff that isn't implied or shown.

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1 minute ago, JPL said:

Where does it imply she's only good for a massage and too stupid to understand their conversation? Maybe he was massaging her 5 minutes earlier, and isn't it pretty obvious he doesn't want her in the conversation because Felix is probably delivering some sensitive information? Why would he say 'I'll see you later?' Why does that make it suddenly ok? Do you always say bye to people when you've finished a conversation with them? I certainly don't. Even so, him not saying goodbye doesn't instantly make it misogynistic. The rest of your comments are just straw man arguments.

 

How is it completely different, except that I'm not a secret agent? What makes you think he's telling her to 'go away, you stupid girl'? Why isn't he saying it in the same jovial way my girlfriend says it to me? You've completely inserted your own narrative into it and it doesn't come across the way you're suggesting to me at all.

 

Then if people are reading it wrong, subconsciously or not, isn't that their own issue?

 

I can totally see how people could find it problematic if that's what you're looking for and viewed in conjunction with other questionable things Bond does, but based on that clip alone it's a stretch to insert all the narratives that you have and tell me that's how I should see it. I'd much rather see it for the playful bit of affection that's actually in the clip, rather than trying to insert a load of stuff that isn't implied or shown.

It's the representation, it's the Male gaze, it's cinematic language. 

 

They aren't straw men arguments because you aren't seeing them, I'm not adding things to it, you've added things like what might have been going on before, it's what shown in that scene which is the point.

Try and think of how you might see that scene from a different perspective to your own. 

 

It's not a case of me and you having different views on that scene (and there are obviously much worse ones but that subtlety is also the problem) it's that if you are a woman that is otherwise continually told you're nothing but good for babies, or you have to be attractive or you don't have any worth, or continually bombarded by unattainable representations of women, it might make you feel a little bit worthless. 

 

This isn't a matter of debate, it's a whole thing, it's known as feminist theory, it's things like the bechdel test. You may not see it but it is an issue as much as the poor representation of people of colour is in western movies. It's just a way of recognising the fact that people with different backgrounds and upbringing will view things in a different light and you're treating the whole thing like "I'm alright Jack" because you don't seem to agree that you could possibly interpret it differently. The construction of the scene, how she is represented (not really any dialogue, barely see her face, no agency), how she is dismissed, and how almost all women in bond are treated as lesser. Do you think many women that grew up watching the bond films thought they could ever be Jane bond? Do you not think that's possibly not great representation and so on?

 

That's the whole thing about "the female, (or gay, or disabled, or person of colour, or trans etc) lens" that it's good to also view films through. 

 

It's also not the fault of any form of minorities for viewing things through their viewpoints either. 

It's also not a suggestion that bond shouldn't exist in case you think I might be advocating that. 

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5 minutes ago, b00dles said:

It's the representation, it's the Male gaze, it's cinematic language. 

 

They aren't straw men arguments because you aren't seeing them, I'm not adding things to it, you've added things like what might have been going on before, it's what shown in that scene which is the point.

Try and think of how you might see that scene from a different perspective to your own. 

 

It's not a case of me and you having different views on that scene (and there are obviously much worse ones but that subtlety is also the problem) it's that if you are a woman that is otherwise continually told you're nothing but good for babies, or you have to be attractive or you don't have any worth, or continually bombarded by unattainable representations of women, it might make you feel a little bit worthless. 

 

This isn't a matter of debate, it's a whole thing, it's known as feminist theory, it's things like the bechdel test. You may not see it but it is an issue as much as the poor representation of people of colour is in western movies. It's just a way of recognising the fact that people with different backgrounds and upbringing will view things in a different light and you're treating the whole thing like "I'm alright Jack" because you don't seem to agree that you could possibly interpret it differently. The construction of the scene, how she is represented (not really any dialogue, barely see her face, no agency), how she is dismissed, and how almost all women in bond are treated as lesser. Do you think many women that grew up watching the bond films thought they could ever be Jane bond? Do you not think that's possibly not great representation and so on?

 

That's the whole thing about "the female, (or gay, or disabled, or person of colour, or trans etc) lens" that it's good to also view films through. 

 

It's also not the fault of any form of minorities for viewing things through their viewpoints either. 

It's also not a suggestion that bond shouldn't exist in case you think I might be advocating that. 

Alright, you've expanded it out into the whole male gaze thing now, when I was specifically talking about that clip. I agree in general that things need to get better with representation and I think they are. It's moving slowly in the right direction.

 

As for the bit where you pulled it back in to what we were originally discussing then all I can say is that it's a film, based on a series of books, about a male secret agent. That's just the nature of the source material. There have been plenty of more recent films that depict female secret agents and that's cool. There's room for both. You definitely did add things to it though. You specifically said it was implied that she was only good for giving a massage and that she was too thick to understand their conversation, even though it's patently obvious he didn't want her in the conversation because it'd include sensitive information. You also said it was implied that he told her 'go away, you stupid girl', when he did nothing of the sort. You're reading things into it that simply aren't there.

 

Remember, we're just discussing whether that clip is problematic, not the entirety of society's issues.

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4 minutes ago, JPL said:

Alright, you've expanded it out into the whole male gaze thing now, when I was specifically talking about that clip. I agree in general that things need to get better with representation and I think they are. It's moving slowly in the right direction.

 

As for the bit where you pulled it back in to what we were originally discussing then all I can say is that it's a film, based on a series of books, about a male secret agent. That's just the nature of the source material. There have been plenty of more recent films that depict female secret agents and that's cool. There's room for both. You definitely did add things to it though. You specifically said it was implied that she was only good for giving a massage and that she was too thick to understand their conversation, even though it's patently obvious he didn't want her in the conversation because it'd include sensitive information. You also said it was implied that he told her 'go away, you stupid girl', when he did nothing of the sort. You're reading things into it that simply aren't there.

 

Remember, we're just discussing whether that clip is problematic, not the entirety of society's issues.

Those two things aren't separate though. 

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Just now, b00dles said:

Those two things aren't separate though. 

In the grand scheme of things I agree, but I was exclusively talking about that specific clip as it was posted in isolation to show Bond's misogyny, whereas I don't think it does. I've also said repeatedly that there are plenty of other questionable things in Bond, so I'm not ignorant to it at all. It's just that clip isn't the problem.

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3 hours ago, b00dles said:

* although obvious, the idea that all other film genres are man films, or men couldn't possibly enjoy a drama about relationships or whatever is also insulting to everyone not just women

 

Replace Dirty Dancing with something like Under Siege / Lethal Weapon / Die Hard and switch the genders and you get the same point.

 

It's not at all insulting to either gender; these films are targeted towards a specific audience. Of course there'll be some overlap with other audiences, but the main groups are pretty clear.

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14 minutes ago, JPL said:

In the grand scheme of things I agree, but I was exclusively talking about that specific clip as it was posted in isolation to show Bond's misogyny, whereas I don't think it does. I've also said repeatedly that there are plenty of other questionable things in Bond, so I'm not ignorant to it at all. It's just that clip isn't the problem.

We'll have to agree to disagree then and I imagine a lot of people would agree with either of us but I'm fairly confident ( as I'm sure you are on the opposite end) that a lot of people that would view that clip from a feminist point of view, would say that the clip is problematic. 

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1 minute ago, Ryan said:

 

Replace Dirty Dancing with something like Under Siege / Lethal Weapon / Die Hard and switch the genders and you get the same point.

 

It's not at all insulting to either gender; these films are targeted towards a specific audience. Of course there'll be some overlap with other audiences, but the main groups are pretty clear.

It is insulting though. Why is there a designation of "chick flick", it's effectively making the assumption that every other movie genre aren't for women and can't be enjoyed by women. It isn't explicitly doing that but you undeniably have some women grow up thinking they're weird or different if they really liked violent movies but no bloke would. 

Similarly, not very long ago and no doubt still today in some places if you were a guy and said your favourite ever movie was the titanic, or I dunno, working girl,  you'd be lolled at by other blokes for "being gay" or whatever. 

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15 minutes ago, b00dles said:

It is insulting though. Why is there a designation of "chick flick", it's effectively making the assumption that every other movie genre aren't for women and can't be enjoyed by women. It isn't explicitly doing that but you undeniably have some women grow up thinking they're weird or different if they really liked violent movies but no bloke would. 

Similarly, not very long ago and no doubt still today in some places if you were a guy and said your favourite ever movie was the titanic, or I dunno, working girl,  you'd be lolled at by other blokes for "being gay" or whatever. 

Haha, It’s me again!

 

Why do you automatically assume that just because a genre is called chick flicks, that every other genre is for blokes only? Again, that feels like a big reach to me. Why isn’t every other genre just seen as being for everybody?* Why would any woman who’s grown up watching Die Hard or Predator or whatever feel weird? I’ve watched all kinds of non-chick flick films with plenty of different girls and not one of them has said they’ve felt weird or suggested they shouldn’t be watching, what you perceive as men films?
 

*To me the problem is calling a single genre chick flicks. That’s the one that’s got implied sexism by the way it’s named, not the others.

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7 minutes ago, JPL said:

Haha, It’s me again!

 

Why do you automatically assume that just because a genre is called chick flicks, that every other genre is for blokes only? Again, that feels like a big reach to me. Why isn’t every other genre just seen as being for everybody?* Why would any woman who’s grown up watching Die Hard or Predator or whatever feel weird? I’ve watched all kinds of non-chick flick films with plenty of different girls and not one of them has said they’ve felt weird or suggested they shouldn’t be watching, what you perceive as men films?
 

*To me the problem is calling a single genre chick flicks. That’s the one that’s got implied sexism by the way it’s named, not the others.

It's like lying by omission though. All of the heads of studios for bloody ages were all men, movies were basically invented for men as a form of recreation after working so hard being the bread winners and there is documented evidence of this too.

It's also that the majority of the other genres didn't ever have female leads, this is again all things that are related to the bechdel test and written about in Laura Mulvey's book "visual and other pleasures" from 1989 where she was one of the first to come up with feminist theory in regards to film. 

 

It's not just me being difficult, I'm recounting (probably badly) elements of a whole side of film studies. These are all things that exist. 

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34 minutes ago, b00dles said:

 if you were a guy and said your favourite ever movie was the titanic, or I dunno, working girl,  you'd be lolled at by other blokes for "being gay" or whatever. 

 

20 minutes ago, JPL said:

Why would any woman who’s grown up watching Die Hard or Predator or whatever feel weird?

 

Why not both? :eyebrows:

 

 

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Maybe I need to look at this bechdel test.

 

I think for me though it’s pretty obvious. Films made by white blokes, for example, will generally heavily feature white blokes, as that is the race and sex they know most about. Even so, that doesn’t mean that girls, or whoever, can’t enjoy those films too.

 

I think the real problem is that, as you say, most studios were run by men and films were directed by men, not necessarily solely for men, but the subjects might be male skewed because of what I said above. It’s a larger issue than just picking out random old films for derision.

 

Personally I appreciate the diverse range of films we have today and I’ve seen plenty of excellent stuff covering all kinds of topics. The more that increases the better.

 

I still don’t feel that past films should be so harshly judged through modern sensibilities, as there were so many factors as to why things were the way they were then. As a progressive society we should understand that and continue to push things forward. Recognise the shortcomings and address them for the future.

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3 minutes ago, JPL said:

I still don’t feel that past films should be so harshly judged through modern sensibilities

But this is a thread specifically for that.

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