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Films from not that long ago that seem a bit "off" these days

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41 minutes ago, Monkeyboy said:


Speaking of Goldfinger...

 

 

 

 

The scene where my mum taught me the phrase 'sex on legs' to describe Connery :lol: 

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Given that Bond has come up, it's interesting to look at Danger Man, starring Patrick McGoohan. It's a 60s spy series (in fact I think in development it was actually going to be an adaptation of Bond before Fleming moved on) but the politics and attitudes are way ahead of a lot of its contemporaries. McGoohan's Drake rarely uses a gun, almost never kills the villains (if they do die, its usually being hoist by their own petard) and while he uses his considerable charms in the pursuit if his job he never romances the women in question (though a lot of them wish he would!). He argues and disagrees with his superiors constantly and, in what is probably one of my favourite episodes, he directly goes against them in order to prevent a wealthy businessman from staging a right-wing coup in a socialist South American country.

 

All this, stemming from McGoohan's own ethics ("No one kisses Patrick McGoohan except Mrs McGoohan" he once said) makes it very watchable today in a way that a lot of 60s shows aren't. They even go out of their way to get your actual ethnic actors as much as possible, though there is a little bit of brownface - Derren Nesbitt as a Lebanese assassin for instance - and in practice it does mean good old Burt Kwok is in a lot of episodes!

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I watched Clue the other night.  The homophobia, misogyny and general treatment of the female characters (especially the "sexy" maid) is all just a bit much and most of it is unnecessary as it would have been just as funny without the moments.

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6 hours ago, Monkeyboy said:


Speaking of Goldfinger...

 

 

How is that problematic? He wanted to talk to felix about ‘man stuff’, which I presume to be something about a mission. Isn’t it just a silly way to get her to leave? I know if my girlfriend wants to talk ‘girl stuff’ with her mates, I’m out of there pretty sharpish.

 

Unless you mean the slap on the arse, but again, I don’t see anything wrong in that. Isn’t that something that all couples do, as a playful show of affection?

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Mention of Police Academy earlier reminds me that producers would often stick a gratuitous topless scene in to presumably help the then new video market.

 

It worked.

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There are also a few too many jokes where the good guys revel in the idea of Captain Harris getting sexually assaulted.

 

As in, any.

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The end of Ace Ventura was more than "off" at the time. I can't how I'd feel watching it today.

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24 minutes ago, Hexx said:

The end of Ace Ventura was more than "off" at the time. I can't how I'd feel watching it today.


It’s fucking horrible.

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Yeah, I'd completely forgotten what happened at the end when I watched it again a couple of years back, it's fucked up. 

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Watched Internal Affairs last night, and was pretty amazed that the only character in the film who didn't hit his wife was Richard Gere's villain! 

 

Andy Garcia even smacked his wife around in a crowded restaurant and faced pretty much zero consequences for it. Felt very strange to see that through a modern lens. 

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21 minutes ago, b00dles said:

Yeah, I'd completely forgotten what happened at the end when I watched it again a couple of years back, it's fucked up. 

Come on then, what happens at the end? I've only seen it once.

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This is absolutely nothing compared to lots of other films, but when watching Back To The Future with my son (7) last week, I didn't think it was a great message that the way to a woman's heart and general life success is to punch some other dude in the face.

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Just now, Pob said:

This is absolutely nothing compared to lots of other films, but when watching Back To The Future with my son (7) last week, I didn't think it was a great message that the way to a woman's heart and general life success is to punch some other dude in the face.

I absolutely love bttf, it's probably my favourite ever childhood film but it does also have the very reaganomics message of the good ending having the family being more middle class with a big truck and materialistic things (although his dad is at least a writer) too. 

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As expected, I’ve gained two negs for my comment above, but neither of them have bothered to try and explain why. If my sensibilities are off, then I’d like to know why, so I can learn and understand it better. Do either of you, or anybody else for that matter, want to help me out on this?

 

I mean, there’s obviously a lot of questionable stuff in Bond, but that clip in isolation seems very tame to me.

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12 minutes ago, Pob said:

Come on then, what happens at the end? I've only seen it once.

 

I might get some details wrong.

 

It's revealed one the male victims was killed because he found out the killer was transgender during a moment of passion (by discovering a penis)


Every character present (including a massive police force) react with revulsion (spitting, vomiting and other physical displays) at the thought of such an encounter.

 

Oh and the killer is slowly forceably stripped in front of this crowd before that to prove the theory.

 

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16 minutes ago, Pob said:

Come on then, what happens at the end? I've only seen it once.

 

Upon realising the villain is a transwoman ("your gun is digging into my hip") he starts obsessively cleaning his mouth and burning his clothes.

 

(Edit: oh yeah, and I'd forgotten that all the other characters react the same, as Hexx posted!)

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Just now, Hexx said:

 

I might get some details wrong.

 

It's revealed one the male victims was killed because he found out the killer was transgender during a moment of passion (by discovering a penis)


Every character present (including a massive police force) react with revulsion (spitting, vomiting and other physical displays) at the thought of such an encounter.

 

Oh and the killer is slowly forceably stripped in front of this crowd before that to prove the theory.

 

and Ace remembers an ambrace he had with her and is then seen crying ina  shower.

 

The entire ending is just awful.

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Gauging the societal tone of movies from 40/30/20/10 years go to todays standards is just a bizarre exercise. Of course things seem odd. Christ even some of the greatest films of all time will have dialogue or scenes that would make you cringe today.

 

More interesting is how do you feel about films that are modern, but are moderately accurate in thier depiction of attitudes of the era? Say Wolf of Wall street. A stupendously good film but full of homophobia, misogyny, abuse et al because it fits the story. Does it bother you?

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Yep. Because Wolf of Wall Street was apparently ambiguous enough, sadly, that a generation of dickheads laud Belfort and aspire to have WOWS parties.

 

Depicting problematic things in the name of art gets a little tricky when you revel in those things too much.

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6 hours ago, JPL said:

As expected, I’ve gained two negs for my comment above, but neither of them have bothered to try and explain why. If my sensibilities are off, then I’d like to know why, so I can learn and understand it better. Do either of you, or anybody else for that matter, want to help me out on this?

 

I mean, there’s obviously a lot of questionable stuff in Bond, but that clip in isolation seems very tame to me.

 

The mind does boggle but you don't like The Last Jedi and think Xbox is great so maybe it does all makes sense. * 

 

He dismisses her with "Now the men are talking" implying that she's too stupid and wouldn't understand the conversation they're about to have. He could of alternatively ask her if they be excused as they had a private conversation to have. She's belittled and treated as an idiot. 

 

The pat on the bum, yes couples do that playfully with each other... but he didn't do that here. He did it in front of Felix ( I think that's his name) while dismissing her. He's showing off in front of the other guy and treating her more of an play thing sexual object that can be dismissed whenever you like. It's again demeaning to the woman. 

 

General jist, and I can't believe that has to be explained or there's a request for it to be explained. 

 

* To explain this, I'm being facetious. It's a little knowing joke. 

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12 hours ago, Nick R said:

 

Still, nothing in the films ever went quite as far as some of the stuff Fleming wrote. From the Goldfinger novel:

 

 

 

And The Spy Who Loved Me, the novel written from the Bond Girl's POV, has this:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/oct/26/when-ian-fleming-tried-to-escape-james-bond

 

And there's more! http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/10-offensive-quotes-from-ian-flemings.html

 

And yet bizarrely most of the women he wrote in the books are all far better, more rounded and more competent characters than Bond, and are done a great disservice by their film versions (if they even made it in - Moonraker's didn't, nor did Bond's secretary). Tiffany Case and Honey Ryder especially got hard done by, as did Domino and various others. Tatyana from From Russia With Love is about the only one where it matches up more or less the same...then you reach the end of the book and Rosa Klebb kills Bond with the poison boot and it ends on a cliffhanger because Fleming wanted to ditch the character at that point. It's only when you look at them closely that it really does seem like, for those stories before Bond's 'death', Fleming was writing him intentionally as a boorish, ignorant idiot punchbag because time and time again, he only survives/completes his mission because the women around are all way more intelligent and competent than he is, and even Bond himself starts to question his dumb preconceptions.

 

Not that there isn't a ton of dodgy as fuck stuff in them, though - some are racist as hell, you just want to cringe reading passages from Live And Let Die and whichever one it was where he's going on about how much he hates Koreans, holy shit. Regardless, the Bond of the books was seemingly intentionally not written as a hero to be admired the way the pre-Craig films depicted him. I kinda wish someone would try a period adaptation TV series of them just for how weird something so familiar would be so different.

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57 minutes ago, Kevvy Metal said:

 

The mind does boggle but you don't like The Last Jedi and think Xbox is great so maybe it does all makes sense. * 

 

He dismiss her with "Now the men are talking" implying that she's too stupid and wouldn't understand the conversation they're about to have. He could of alternatively ask her if they be excused as they had a private conversation to have. She's belittled and treated as an idiot. 

 

The pat on the bum, yes couples do that playfully with each other... but he didn't do that here. He did it in front of Felix ( I think that's his name) while dismissing her. He's showing off in front of the other guy and treating her more of an play thing sexual object that can be dismissed whenever you like. It's again demeaning to the woman. 

 

General jist, and I can't believe that has to be explained or there's a request for it to be explained. 

 

* To explain this, I'm being facetious. It's a little knowing joke. 

I suppose that's one way of seeing it, but I still think it's a massive overreaction. You haven't convinced me in any way that my initial reaction is wrong. Obviously in the greater context of Bond, there are issues, but that single clip doesn't demonstrate that to me.

 

Like I said originally though, I see it differently and don't think it's demeaning at all. He says he's got man stuff to talk about with Felix, which is just a humorous way of telling her to leave them to it. She isn't being treated as too stupid to understand what they're talking about, as I imagine in the context of the film, they go on to talk about sensitive mission stuff. Should I be offended and feel demeaned when my girlfriend says she's got girl stuff to talk with her friends?

 

Likewise, the bum slap, doesn't make me think he's showing off either. He doesn't turn to Felix and wink, or give him a knowing look or anything, it's just his little sign of affection as she's leaving. Me and my girlfriend do it all the time without feeling demeaned by each other.

 

It seems like you're reading things into it that just aren't there. I'm going to continue in my current relationship without the worry that I've been getting demeaned and belittled all these years.

 

But, then again, you hate the Xbox and love The Last Jedi, so maybe your stance does make sense. ;)

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13 hours ago, Monkeyboy said:


Speaking of Goldfinger...

 

 

 

Speaking of Bond

 

 

Edited by Stevie
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By no means a great movie but what was considered to be a harmless product of it's time, Revenge of the nerds. The standard geeks get one up one jocks genre, except for the bit when they rig a girls house full of cameras and film them showering, or when the lead character dresses like the boyfriend of the girl he is infatuated with and tricks her into having sex.

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3 hours ago, Nick R said:

 

Upon realising the villain is a transwoman ("your gun is digging into my hip") he starts obsessively cleaning his mouth and burning his clothes.

 

(Edit: oh yeah, and I'd forgotten that all the other characters react the same, as Hexx posted!)

 

as does a Dolphin!

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I haven't seen it mentioned, but the plot of Dirty Dancing is essentially a man in his 30s grooming and then having sex with a 16 year old girl.

 

I had the benefit of only watching it for the first time in 2011, but it baffles me how this was ever held up as a romantic classic.

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3 hours ago, JPL said:

I suppose that's one way of seeing it, but I still think it's a massive overreaction. You haven't convinced me in any way that my initial reaction is wrong. Obviously in the greater context of Bond, there are issues, but that single clip doesn't demonstrate that to me.

 

Like I said originally though, I see it differently and don't think it's demeaning at all. He says he's got man stuff to talk about with Felix, which is just a humorous way of telling her to leave them to it. She isn't being treated as too stupid to understand what they're talking about, as I imagine in the context of the film, they go on to talk about sensitive mission stuff. Should I be offended and feel demeaned when my girlfriend says she's got girl stuff to talk with her friends?

 

Likewise, the bum slap, doesn't make me think he's showing off either. He doesn't turn to Felix and wink, or give him a knowing look or anything, it's just his little sign of affection as she's leaving. Me and my girlfriend do it all the time without feeling demeaned by each other.

 

It seems like you're reading things into it that just aren't there. I'm going to continue in my current relationship without the worry that I've been getting demeaned and belittled all these years.

 

But, then again, you hate the Xbox and love The Last Jedi, so maybe your stance does make sense. ;)

Can you not appreciate that if you're a woman watching that you're portrayed as only good for a massage and too stupid to understand the important "man" conversation?

Ok you might not read it like that but that isn't the point, it's the general depiction of her, she doesn't even get a line, or "I'll see you later" she's just dismissed. Like how the men used to retire to the lounge for whiskey and cigars and the women expected to talk about sewing or babies back in the day. 

 

Also that clip and your missus saying she's going to have some girl talk with her friends is completely different. You also tell it like she's phrased it more like "you'll be bored, we're going to have girl talk, so you might want to do something else" not "go away you stupid girl" as bond does it. 

 

Again, you might not see it like that, or think there's anything wrong with it and your wife might not either but that's completely beside the point, some people will read it like that, it might even be subconscious but it is there and that's how it would be and is read by a lot of people, which is why it was brought up. 

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