Jump to content
rllmuk
dumpster

Is it time to ditch the consoles?

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

Was it ? I thought it was £170 for some reason 


The pack with ROB, a light gun and two games was, yes. The basic console, no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Anne Summers said:

And also because they are unlikely to buy a £2k gaming PC for their kids unless they are very spoilt. 

 

Again this is something I'm wondering if external GPUs will change, as the tech they rely on becomes commoditised and they come down in price. You could buy one GPU for the family, leave it sitting under the telly, and whoever wants to play just plugs in their laptop. This is assuming they're spoiled enough to have their own laptops of course! Or at least have access to one that they share.

 

Probably depends on whether USB 4 will become a limiting factor. The current gen and next gen consoles both have the CPU and GPU on the same die, with very fast communication between them as a result, and the ability to address the same memory space instead of passing data back and forth. This doesn't seem to have been a limiting factor this generation, but the bandwidth available on next gen consoles will be increased further, and USB 4 tops out at 40Gbps. It really depends on how developers use this, and in turn how they approach PC ports.

 

In terms of the value proposition, I think the difficult thing to overcome is always going to be fact that consoles are usually subsidised, or sold at cost. Obviously their intention is to make their money from you in the long run, but the initial purchase is obviously going to remain very influential when it comes to decision making, particularly when it comes to families as you say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Consoles aren't sold at a loss or at cost. They are probably sold at a lower margin than, say, PC components - precisely because the company is hoping to make that margin instead on the software/services side that the component company can't - but not at a loss. At least, not as standard. I'm sure there's some that have, or have temporarily, but it's not an industry standard.

 

I think it's odd that at the end of what is presumably one of the most successful console generations ever, we'd be asking if they're now redundant. Although I do recall the same was being asked of this gen before it got going.

 

I think the answer's still no, but that doesn't mean PC gamers are insane.

 

You have some choices. You want generally cheaper software, more control over how it runs, where you buy it from, how you play it etc? Get a PC. You'll pay more, and have to think more, about the hardware, but you're probably even or saving over the long run. Also, if you need a beefy PC for anything else, you're making a clear saving.

 

You want an easier life and less upfront cost? And titles for which the development is being subsidised by a platform holder (and can therefore be of higher production values)? Get a console. But understand you're signing up to a whole pile of subscription services, locked-down storefronts and so on. But you'll be able to take it home, plug it into a TV and not think.

 

I think the death of console is overstated again.

  • Upvote 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Revival said:

 

Didn't want to turn it into an advert but even that's under selling it.

 

There's about 270-280 games already available to download and play when you want on console.

You get a mix of 8-12 new games each month including new indies and third party games on the day of release

You get every first party game available to play on the day of release

 

As a service it's very easy to recommend on price and the quality of content.

 

If we're being entirely fair we should note some games also leave the service every month.  Doesn't affect the recommendation though.

 

2 hours ago, Isaac said:

 

There are some very optimistic and bold claims in this thread from people saying you can get a decent gaming PC for £400, but your example is way too far in the other direction.

 

You don't need to spend anywhere near £2k to get a PC faster than even the Series X. £1k will get you there. Beyond the £1.1-1.2k mark you are hitting diminishing returns, and spending hundreds of pounds more for marginal performance gains.

 

I'd be interested in your build here, with the obvious requirement that the PC should come fully assembled and runs games in 4k as well as those consoles, not just be quicker on headline figures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Sarlaccfood said:


Why? It’s a thing that costs them money to run. What’s wrong with paying for a service you use?

Because you already paid for the game. I think the Games with Gold etc. brings extra value to the overall service, but I have always felt that if you pay £60 for a game which is online only then you should be able to play it without subscribing to someone else's service.  It seems daft that you have to pay Sony for PSPlus when you want to play Battlefront by EA. Paying monthly for the ability to play online is a scam, they only charge it because they can get away with it, and this is proved by the fact that it is free on PC. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some really interesting points being raised in this thread and it's a good read.  It's making me change my opinion on a few things and reinforcing on others.  One thought that hit me was this...

 

Microsoft have linked the gaming experience between PC and console, so if you buy a game on XBox you can play the PC version at no extra charge. On that basis, surely it makes much more sense to make the next generation of console PC compatible?  I mean under the hood rather than being printed on the box, but it would save developers a lot of money if they could write one version for all Microsoft platforms.  With the next Xbox being compatible with the previous ones, is the next Xbox merely a Microsoft branded gaming PC that doesn't show Windows or have a keyboard?

 

I think the line between console and computer is going to be more blurred than ever.  If you end up paying £500 for a console that runs games at 60fps and 4K, surely 99% of people won't be able to see the difference between that and a PC? The whole point of a console is that you get high end gaming at a fraction of the price, but it's not that much cheaper any more.

 

One thing that always interests me on this forum is the way that many of us talk of buying to support the developers and how people become protective of multinational companies.  It seems crazy to support the idea of charging for online gaming access, especially when (A) the game isn't even made by Sony or MS, and (B) it's free on other formats.  Pricing is always based on what the market will stand, and running costs, materials etc play a much smaller role than you'd think.

 

Wonder if there is a market for someone to build a gaming PC in s discreet case, HDMI out and no monitor provided, windows 10, and the tagline that it's an Xbox-Compatible. Plays the PC versions of all the latest Xbox titles, just as good as the Xbox, but with no monthly subscriptions to play online, and cheaper games on average too.

 

I think the market is getting closer to every different company making their own system that's entirely indistinguishable from the rest, and maybe, as Microsoft have already started, it's all going to converge into one main format. PC!   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, dumpster said:

Microsoft have linked the gaming experience between PC and console, so if you buy a game on XBox you can play the PC version at no extra charge.

 

Is this actually a thing people do? Why would I play a game both on Xbox and on PC?

 

Quote

 

One thing that always interests me on this forum is the way that many of us talk of buying to support the developers and how people become protective of multinational companies.  It seems crazy to support the idea of charging for online gaming access, especially when (A) the game isn't even made by Sony or MS, and (B) it's free on other formats.  

 

Yes, that is a bit baffling. Entertainment is a product, brought to us through PlayStation or Xbox hardware by stock-listed companies. Let's not forget that. In fact, Sony is partly owned by one of the biggest activist investors / hedge funds in the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, alex3d said:

 

Is this actually a thing people do? Why would I play a game both on Xbox and on PC?

 

 

 

maybe you're playing on PC at home, and you go to your partner/friend/random strangers who has an xbox, you sign in and carry on playing on the xbox

 

maybe your xbox is on the "big tv" and PC in a different room.

 

Its pretty good.

 

The vast majority of my gaming is done on PC, i find it A LOT simpler that the consoles, hell, i cant find a thing on PS4, i find the UI baffling! the xbox is a bit better, but they are both slow and full of crap that i cant remove! mixer anyone!?

 

Consoles are for exclusives and thats it. And if the xbox ones are going on PC(as Microsoft seem to be indicating) aces! saves buying the xbox!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dumpster said:

so if you buy a game on XBox you can play the PC version at no extra charge

Only Microsoft games though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, bear said:

 

How much were Sony and Microsoft making from digital sales when they started charging for online play compared to now? 

Just taking a quote from this article:

Link

 

Pachter did a video years ago where he said the revenue split between for a game sold at retail was 20% platform holder, 20% retailer, 60% publisher compared to digital where it's 30% platform holder, 70% publisher. 

 

And Sony don't charge people if they want to play Fortnite online but using the same service to play FIFA requires a PS Plus subscription. 

 

If I buy Gears 5 from Microsofts store I get the PC and Xbox versions of the game. To play online using Xbox Live on my console I have to pay for Xbox Live Gold. If I play online on my PC using Xbox Live, even against Xbox console users, I don't have to pay. 

 

I understand that they control the control the platform so they can do what they like, I just don't like the "well it costs them money so they should charge you" argument. 


And I don’t really get the “they’ve made enough money now so I should get something for free” argument.

 

Are you expecting to just walk into the next Marvel movie without buying a ticket because Endgame was so successful?

  • Upvote 2
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dumpster said:

Because you already paid for the game. I think the Games with Gold etc. brings extra value to the overall service, but I have always felt that if you pay £60 for a game which is online only then you should be able to play it without subscribing to someone else's service.  It seems daft that you have to pay Sony for PSPlus when you want to play Battlefront by EA. Paying monthly for the ability to play online is a scam, they only charge it because they can get away with it, and this is proved by the fact that it is free on PC. 


“they only charge it because they can get away with it” can be applied to pretty much any product ever put on sale. It’s not really a scam. 
 

Charging £60 for an online-only game is pure bullshit though I won’t argue with that. I’m glad Fortnite and the like have come along to give COD and Overwatch a run for their money.
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, alex3d said:

 

Is this actually a thing people do? Why would I play a game both on Xbox and on PC?

 

I used to do a bit of that. My consoles and PC used to be in different rooms, so it was handy being able to load up Forza Horizon 3 on both with cloud saves. It's a step above streaming to the PC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’d love a gaming PC, it’s just too much of an outlay and I haven’t got the space for it. My 10 year old boy would like one too, him and his friends see Ninja and co. Playing Fortnite on keyboard and mouse in a pc so they all want to play that way.  One day I’ll bite the bullet and get one, those Alienware gaming laptops always look so tempting, would to be able to play full fat games away from home when I’m travelling with work(the switch does me well though for now :)). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, dumpster said:

 

 

Wonder if there is a market for someone to build a gaming PC in s discreet case, HDMI out and no monitor provided, windows 10, and the tagline that it's an Xbox-Compatible. Plays the PC versions of all the latest Xbox titles, just as good as the Xbox, but with no monthly subscriptions to play online, and cheaper games on average too.

 

 

Have you not just describe the steam box that seems to flop every time they try it?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although that company also thought that this was a good idea in 2012:

 

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-07-alienware-those-who-can-build-the-x51-for-under-700-arent-the-target-audience

 

"It lets you get a PC that can do gaming for only £200 more than a PC that can't do gaming, for people who don't really care that much about games and can't build a system on their own, but I guess don't want to spend the £200 on a console."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, alex3d said:

 

Is this actually a thing people do? Why would I play a game both on Xbox and on PC?

 

I've done it with Forza Horizon 4.  Pretty much the entire point of the switch was effectively that people wanted cross save between console and handheld, albeit they did it with one device.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, davidcotton said:

Have you not just describe the steam box that seems to flop every time they try it?

 

Yes, I definitely am!  But - if we are living in a console generation where a Steambox would be able to out-perform a console equivalent, perhaps the time is right. Market the machine on the many benefits we have covered in this thread and maybe a Steam Machine would work in the current generation where it has failed before?  I dunno - speculating, it just feels to me that this forthcoming gen is being fought on different grounds than previous generations.  

 

Like, I watched a few of the DF videos when games like Read Dead 2 came out and they show the different formats running side by side.  Usually there are differences, and the PS4 seems to outperform the Xbox on the videos I have seen but it's not by much and, whilst there is a sort of noticable difference in a side by side comparison, no-one really cares when they get it home.  But in the forthcoming generation, will there be any noticeable difference at all, even slightly, between a 60fps, 4K console or gaming PC?  Apart from exclusives, I think the next gen is all going to be much of a muchness. If that's the case, maybe there's a market for a company to release a machine that works just like the others, but markets itself on the cheapness of the games, online without subscription and so on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, dumpster said:

 

Yes, I definitely am!  But - if we are living in a console generation where a Steambox would be able to out-perform a console equivalent, perhaps the time is right.

 

It always could.  What it can't do is outperform them, in real world gaming performance, at the same price.

 

Mainly because Sony are buying 100 million of them and are prepared to make a very small profit per unit at best and any given "Steambox" maker is going to need to make a hardware profit on a fraction of the sales because they're not getting a cut of the games and literally any electronics maker could do what they're doing with very few startup costs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sarlaccfood said:


And I don’t really get the “they’ve made enough money now so I should get something for free” argument.

 

Are you expecting to just walk into the next Marvel movie without buying a ticket because Endgame was so successful?

Never said anyone should give me anything for free, just pointed out that the idea that they need to charge money in order to provide online play doesn't really hold up. Its not something that upsets me. It's their walled garden, they can do what they want. 

 

If I was in charge of advertising Stadia the fact online play is free in the standard version is something I'd be putting front and centre in my marketing plan. Even if there is no one else to play with. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steam Machines will never be a thing. We'll continue to see things like the Corsair One and Intel's NUC bare bones units, for people who want basically the closest thing to a console that's still a PC. But not something that comes out of the box ready to play games with no setup. No individual player in the industry has all the pieces available to make something like that happen. Or the billions to spend on marketing, manufacturing and distribution to turn it into a genuine alternative.

 

I'd love to see the Steam Controller, released in support of the Steam Machine initiative, come back though. I understand it was a bit niche - the vast majority of games you're much better off played with a standard XInput controller - but there were some little touches that were great. It offered the only system for controller-based text input I've seen that bettered the one in Beyond Good and Evil (which this offers something similar to). The touch-activated gyro aiming is a wonderful happy accident that I hope the next gen consoles copy. Then there is the ridiculous endless customisability, and the way you don't need to actually do any customisation, because the configs are shareable and someone else has already done all the work. I wonder if they could make a second version with a higher price and nicer build quality, to reflect the fact that it's never going to be a mass market proposition. Kind of like a PC equivalent to the Xbox Elite controller. Unfortunately though, I think Valve are never going to make non-VR controllers again.

 

2 hours ago, Dan said:

I’d love a gaming PC, it’s just too much of an outlay and I haven’t got the space for it.

 

My PC is the size of a shoebox. I don't think there is much reason to get a massive case unless you have very specific requirements these days. You can get an ATX tower if you want, but there will be a lot of redundant unused space inside. The annoying thing is that cases wierdly seem to get more expensive as you get smaller! I guess because that's still what most people buy, even though the internals of a PC have got much smaller and simpler since the 90s when all these standards were put in place.

 

6 hours ago, Uncle Mike said:

Consoles aren't sold at a loss or at cost. They are probably sold at a lower margin than, say, PC components - precisely because the company is hoping to make that margin instead on the software/services side that the component company can't - but not at a loss. At least, not as standard. I'm sure there's some that have, or have temporarily, but it's not an industry standard.

 

I was under the impression that pretty much every non-nintendo console that has ever existed was sold, at least initially, at a loss. Reading about it at bit more, it seems this generation has been a bit of a break in tradition in that sense, with a slender profit being made per unit. It seems there is some debate over whether this is still the case with the Pro and the One X though.

 

It would be brilliant if Nvidia were to suddenly become happy with making £10 off each card they sold. That would save me a lot of money.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't like the idea of a Steam box type thing as it just seems like trying to make a pc into a console.  you'll probably be restricted as to what hardware you could upgrade due to its small form factor case.  It's goes against the ethos of the freedom offered by gaming PC.  I appericiate not everyone is in a position where the can plonk a huge case next to their TV 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Liamness said:

I'd love to see the Steam Controller, released in support of the Steam Machine initiative, come back though. I understand it was a bit niche - the vast majority of games you're much better off played with a standard XInput controller - but there were some little touches that were great. It offered the only system for controller-based text input I've seen that bettered the one in Beyond Good and Evil (which this offers something similar to). The touch-activated gyro aiming is a wonderful happy accident that I hope the next gen consoles copy. Then there is the ridiculous endless customisability, and the way you don't need to actually do any customisation, because the configs are shareable and someone else has already done all the work. I wonder if they could make a second version with a higher price and nicer build quality, to reflect the fact that it's never going to be a mass market proposition. Kind of like a PC equivalent to the Xbox Elite controller. Unfortunately though, I think Valve are never going to make non-VR controllers again.

 

Steam controller is fantastic and agree with everything you said.  It's a crime if the next gen controllers do not adopt gyro aiming in their next controllers.  I pray Valve have a version 2.0 up their sleeve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think unfortunately gyro aiming is probably out of the window, certainly with touch activation, as Microsoft have already revealed the controller for Series X and it's basically exactly the same. Leaks suggest the PS5 controller also brings very few changes. It would need to be supported on both consoles to become popular, I imagine.

 

42 minutes ago, simms said:

Don't like the idea of a Steam box type thing as it just seems like trying to make a pc into a console.  you'll probably be restricted as to what hardware you could upgrade due to its small form factor case.

 

I do think something needs to be done in terms of making them less massive, though. Having a mainboard which only accepts a GPU daugherboard at a 90 degree angle is very limiting in terms of case design, at least without doing strange things that involve expensive riser cables. The "modular" NUC system that Intel showed at CES seemed promising in a way, but it's really expensive and poor in terms of upgradability. ASRock tried something a while ago (the "DeskMini") that used MXM format GPUs, usually seen on laptops. That ended up being incredibly small, but they are not really a standard, and they're also pretty expensive.

 

To make a "console replacement" a success, you would need to make it as compact and affordable (or at least reasonably close), while still using standard components. Without the former, you don't stand a chance at catching the interest of people who would otherwise buy a console. Without the latter, you lose the people who would just build their own Mini-ITX PC. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to square that circle at this moment in time.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 18/01/2020 at 10:57, dumpster said:

Seems to me that the new console generation is at odds with what consoles should be - cheap hardware that is competitive and powerful compared to home computers. Buying a new console will cost a lot of money overall, as you factor in the £50 -£60 games, monthly online subs, and so on.  And when a game is multi format, the PC version is usually the best.  So, is

 PC the way forward now and is it time to ditch the consoles?

 

Seems to you? You're wrong.

Everything you said above is wrong.

Is this simply utter trolling.

  • Downvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Liamness said:

Steam Machines will never be a thing. We'll continue to see things like the Corsair One and Intel's NUC bare bones units, for people who want basically the closest thing to a console that's still a PC.

 

That's an interesting comparison. The Corsair One is a classic SFF PC - small for a PC, big for a console, and with a clever cooling system that makes it twice as expensive. The NUC is closer to a console in integration but even smaller in size and something I've only ever seen in the wild in business settings rather than homes. For whatever reason, the closest thing to a console is still not very much like a console and I think that speaks to your point that a heavily integrated appliance like a console is inherently out of the grasp of PC manufacturers, whose designs are usually about the opposite of integration.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Hamus said:

 

Seems to you? You're wrong.

Everything you said above is wrong.

Is this simply utter trolling.

 

 

 Is having an opinion or posing a question now classed as trolling then? If that were the case wouldn't the forum be full of empty pages, with everybody in fear of posting? I can only presume by the aggression and time of posting you've had one too many.

 

 

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pavey said:

 

 

 Is having an opinion or posing a question now classed as trolling then? If that were the case wouldn't the forum be full of empty pages, with everybody in fear of posting? I can only presume by the aggression and time of posting you've had one too many.

 

 

 

He was totally wrong but it wasn't trolling. He was at worst playing Devil's advocate (not the pinball machine).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.