Jump to content
rllmuk
Liamness

Half-Life: Alyx

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Mr Combo Breaker said:

Yeah I've already got a Kiroo Onyx (don't google it at work). It's full of accelerometers and shit for hi-fidelity package trackage. 

 

Too late! Well, every day's a school day I suppose.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, JPL said:

Why can’t the articulation of the arms just follow what the hands are doing? Just some generalised natural movement.

 

I saw a video the other day for a VR game called Boneworks, which does this. But even in the dev's own video, there are places it looks distractingly weird - watch this part for about 10 seconds to see what I mean. I'm not saying Valve couldn't have done a better job of it if they'd tried it, but I do think it's quite a hard problem to solve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wavey said:

 

I saw a video the other day for a VR game called Boneworks, which does this. But even in the dev's own video, there are places it looks distractingly weird - watch this part for about 10 seconds to see what I mean. I'm not saying Valve couldn't have done a better job of it if they'd tried it, but I do think it's quite a hard problem to solve.

Yeah, that does look bonkers to be fair. I’m just not sure why it can’t mimic how your hands connect to your arms in the real world. Some of the contorted hand movements in that video don’t look anything like how you could move your hands in reality, so maybe it’s a current limitation of the accuracy of the tracking in the controllers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing about arms is that they'll need to be rendered. In a VR world, that render budget is already very stretched. The fidelity of the world is worth a lot more than the part of your body you can't control, won't spend much time looking at, and isn't mapped precisely to your movements.

 

Hands are the exception because they're needed - if you didn't have them, you couldn't grab anything with precision. You'd be flailing as if blindfolded.

 

It becomes as second nature as the traditional hand+gun effect used in FPS, holding the gun in way that nobody ever actually holds it in real life, but we're just used to from years of gaming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some games do render arms and they do have anomalies as you move your hands - Star Trek Bridge Commander for instance. Without proper mocap it will always glitch out at some point.

 

So it can be a design choice to avoid that disconnect or render budget.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Kerry Davis gave a good talk about door opening mechanics which raised some interesting discoveries they made early in development regarding hand tracking and the player's kinesthetic sense. The player's VR hand can be guided fairly far from where it actually is IRL without them noticing, with a VR arm attached I'd imagine it would be more incongruous. He talks about it a little more around the 36 minute mark. They've definitely put the effort in and thought this stuff through.

 

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As suggested there are lots of VR games that model your arms, and they can all look weird at points. It's just a design decision whether to render arms, torso etc. A bit like some FPS games render parts of the player model so you can see your legs, whereas others don't. 

 

I think the important thing is that while it looks weird in a video it's not actually that weird when you are in VR to have disembodied hands.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JPL said:

Yeah, that does look bonkers to be fair. I’m just not sure why it can’t mimic how your hands connect to your arms in the real world. Some of the contorted hand movements in that video don’t look anything like how you could move your hands in reality, so maybe it’s a current limitation of the accuracy of the tracking in the controllers.

 

It's difficult because as suggested the movement of you hands does have some automomy from the movement of your body. I can for example retain my head and hand in the same position yet change the position of my arm (by rotating my torso and therefore moving my shoulders with out my head or hand moving). Or I can rotate my wrist in numerous ways and yet not move my arm at all. You can track the position and angle of the hand perfectly and still only be able to aproximate what the arm might be doing even if you knew the bone lengths of a specific person.

 

The other issue, as suggest in the video above is that at some points you want cheat, and not really do what the person is actually doing, i.e. you want them to push a button but they actually push past it (as there is nothing actually stopping them from doing that) but the representation in the game stops the hand. Which adds additional factors.

 

You have to remember that VR isn't doing body tracking (like kinect did) it's just tracking the position and orientation of the headset and the controllers.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Strafe said:


I think on the whole you’re right, I can’t think of any examples off the top of my head, bar Farpoint (a VR shooter no less) where the playable character talks throughout.

 

Actually I'd completely forgotten that about Farpoint. I don't remember finding that weird at all, so it's probably a complete non issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main character speaks in plenty of first person games - Duke Nukem, Far Cry 3 and 4, Firewatch, Halo, Mirror's Edge, Bioshock Infinite, the latter Deus Ex titles, etc. While much dialogue in the genre occurs in cut-scenes, I don't think that's to do with a disconnect for the player, more that the games in question follow the usual formula of conveying story through cut-scenes or radio links during action downtime, rather than fully choreographed, playable scenes like Half Life opts for.

 

Batman speaks in Batman: Arkham VR, and I didn't notice any weird feelings there. I don't expect to find any here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't need to justify my Rift S purchase earlier in the year because it's fucking amazing but man I'm dripping with hype for this.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Broker said:


I assume that if they’re offering movement solutions that are totally static not all configurations will include the ducking and leaning? So with two motion controllers I think you probably could do what you’re describing on a normal screen.


all movement solutions will allow ducking and leaning.  In Vr your head is tracked via the headset so any change in height direction will be translated into movement.  I.e. ducking and leaning

 

5 hours ago, JPL said:

Why don’t they render arms (and a body) then? Wouldn’t that feel more realistic?


A current VR game called Raw data (quite a good game) renders hands and arms but it can be glitchy at times as current VR solutions have to guess what your forearms/elbows are doing. They use a technique called inverse kinetics or something to calculate what your arms are doing based on your hand movements 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Inverse kinematics. It's a method of working backwards from a desired position, to find the movements required to obtain it from the current position. Typically used in animation systems to ensure the feet connect with the floor, hands connect with objects, etc.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I know of inverse kinematics. I’m sure they’ll figure out how to make it work in time. If VR hangs around that long, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JPL said:

Yeah, I know of inverse kinematics. I’m sure they’ll figure out how to make it work in time. If VR hangs around that long, of course.

VR is the future, Jon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 21/11/2019 at 21:25, jonny_rat said:

Shit, I just rewatched and realised the significance of Eli saying "close your eyes, honey."


Yeah. That got me. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JPL said:

Yeah, I know of inverse kinematics. I’m sure they’ll figure out how to make it work in time. If VR hangs around that long, of course.

not without mocap on arms/elbows they won't

 

hold your hands out and turn them in 45 degrees

 

now you can move your arms to be directly behind them or at angle - VR has no clue where your arms are as no tracking points without mocap.

 

And VR is fine and has a future, I find some of the reactions to VR here quite amusing (especially compared to the VR threads where people have actually used it extensively) - as if it is some untested gimmick. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Benny said:

 

Half Life: Headcrab would have been a belter.

 

That was a level in an alien game right?

 

You'd last about 10 seconds.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Fry Crayola said:

Another thing about arms is that they'll need to be rendered. In a VR world, that render budget is already very stretched. The fidelity of the world is worth a lot more than the part of your body you can't control, won't spend much time looking at, and isn't mapped precisely to your movements.

 

Hands are the exception because they're needed - if you didn't have them, you couldn't grab anything with precision. You'd be flailing as if blindfolded.

 

It becomes as second nature as the traditional hand+gun effect used in FPS, holding the gun in way that nobody ever actually holds it in real life, but we're just used to from years of gaming.

 

giant-cardboard-robot-arms-kit-5914.jpg.9703d8a345133ddc2c0a498ce4efb456.jpg

 

giant-robot-cardboards-arms-300x250.jpg.102eca7b593a61d4666f4ef0cb5a5c49.jpg

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Hamus said:

 

That was a level in an alien game right?

 

You'd last about 10 seconds.


AvP2 had a face-hugger mission - it was first-person like the others, but the camera was low to the floor and you could move insanely fast and walk on walls... although dying was pretty easy and I think the mission ended once you found a victim. :D 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's probably fair to assume that the monsters and mechanics are really going to fuck with you in this.  Headcrabs and Limpets translate in a fairly nasty way to VR.   The designed for VR baddies are just going to be nasty.  Awesome!

 

Just need to work out how I can afford a Rift S.  My PC is just at minimum spec for this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Clipper said:

hold your hands out and turn them in 45 degrees

 

now you can move your arms to be directly behind them or at angle - VR has no clue where your arms are as no tracking points without mocap.

 

If the company that solves this doesn't demo it by having their CEO do the Birdie Dance in VR on a conference stage I'll be very disappointed.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, monkeydog said:

 

Just need to work out how I can afford a Rift S.  My PC is just at minimum spec for this.

With Oculus Link now out in Beta you should be thinking how to afford a Quest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, monkeydog said:

Quest has some overhead in link mode doesn't it?

That is true although I’m not sure how big the overhead is. So if you are only barely scrapping minimum specs that might be an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.