Copyright strikes on Retro game Youtube vids - Paul Andrews?

[SeanR]

39 minutes ago, maryliddon said:

 

That aside, do you think there’s anything of interest there?

 

The appearance / disappearance of Horace on Andrews Redbubble site or the just in time wikipedia editing to assert Andrew’s ownership?

on the one hand keeping information up to date is important, but on the other hand...

 

conspirasah!

[SeanR]

52 minutes ago, peteprodge said:

 

Well, as of yesterday evening, she's begun to restore her YouTube channel. This includes her first two videos [1] [2] about the ZX Spectrum Horace games, which include the first depictions of Horace in her presenter links. Good to see them again, I hadn't seen them for over a year, and a rewatch shows Horace having to attend a Job Centre meeting. Wow. That's sooooo sexual!

 

You can see why Paul Andrews objected to such jaw-dropping hardcore material, he's a fine upstanding moral guardian, what with history having him as co-director of Erotic Chatbots Ltd and being the executive producer of 18-rated British Celebrity Babes 1, 2 and 3, which promises the viewer tantalising glimpses of the girls from Nuts and Zoo magazine.

 

This weekend Paul Andrews was asked by a journalist if he condoned George Cropper's review of Hungry Horace, and he confirmed he did. Um, the video has George describing one of the characters in the game as being a rampant sex pest, performing sexual assaults on people. George REALLY goes into detail on that.

Man in “multiple business interests” shocker.

 

youd have a point if he was using X to advertise Y though

[Bluejam]

Viewers who are not bored with the whole thing maybe interested to know that Pete Prodge joined Spectrum For Everyone to start a post about George Cropper attacking his copyright permissions on his Bum Fun Gaming titles.  The mods closed it almost immediately. I believe he was also banned from another group due to insulting various people who didn’t agree with him

 

Turning to Retro Princess, she has made a few posts about waiting for an apology. I hope she’s not expecting an apology over the stuffed Horace things she made as most people agree that she was in the wrong on that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bluejam]

Really? REALLY? 

[maryliddon]

1 hour ago, SeanR said:

on the one hand keeping information up to date is important, but on the other hand...

 

conspirasah!

 

In this case ‘up to date’ for the redbubble site would be acknowledging a lack of rights to sell Horace merch.

 

Come on @SeanR how about applying some of that critical thinking you rightly wheeled out for the Vega debacle?

[Bluejam]

I think this nonsense over the last few days has been eye opening in that

 

(1) The Spectrum scene is dreadful

 

(2) Twitter is a cesspit

 

(3) This should have all been dealt with privately. If she didn’t agree with what had been decided upon that would have been the time to rant on twitter. The “bed” video was released at a time when things had apparently been agreed and ‘signed off’

 

(4) This has been an interesting insight on an individual who appears to have difficulty is separating her You Tube character and real life. That’s in my view btw

(5) Whether Andrews dealt with this appropriately is almost irrelevant now. For the record, i think he could have dealt with it a lot better but then again, maybe she could have too? 
 

Anyway, when’s the Spectrum Next coming out? 

[Lorfarius]

2 hours ago, Bluejam said:

(4) This has been an interesting insight on an individual who appears to have difficulty is separating her You Tube character and real life. That’s in my view btw

 

Yep and it's just one person without a job, sat at home stressing over what's happening. Probably browsing site after site in a panic and never reallyt leaving the twitter sphere.  They aren't some big private company with a raft of solictors or advisors and just reacting on the fly. People make mistakes in the heat of the moment and a lot of this will have come about in a panic of losing her income, easy to do when you haven't anyone to double check or go over what you are putting out.  Even the big Tubers have problems so it's something that's part and parcel of being on there.

 

Some of the comments made (not here) have been truly atrocious, attacking her personally and hating on what she'd made.   For what this is all about I think it says a lot more about them personally than this one Youtuber.  It's very difficult to deal with this sort of stuff as I remember chatting on a regular basis to one of the bigger ones about 7 years ago before it all took off and how he was struggling to deal with the work, constant messages and worrying about pleasing his viewers. That was at around 40K in subs so quite similar and ee later went on to hit 200K subs before long and seems to be managing well but everyone struggles.

 

I've also been seeing far too much jealousy about her earning "big bucks" but it's never as much as people think. I'm about to hit 2000 subs after 10 years with well over 1100 vids and with over 1 million views across the channel. I think that makes me officialy a legend in my own lifetime but over that 10 years I might have made enough regular views to get a couple of yearly £60 payments.  I talk absolute drivel but thankfully never made it big. I've nothing against those that have just a lot of understanding, its quite the achievement in a lot of cases.

[ianinthefuture]

2 hours ago, Lorfarius said:

 

I've also been seeing far too much jealousy about her earning "big bucks" but it's never as much as people think. I'm about to hit 2000 subs after 10 years with well over 1100 vids and with over 1 million views across the channel. I think that makes me officialy a legend in my own lifetime but over that 10 years I might have made enough regular views to get a couple of yearly £60 payments.  I talk absolute drivel but thankfully never made it big. I've nothing against those that have just a lot of understanding, its quite the achievement in a lot of cases.

 

Agree with all of that, just quoting this bit as I can throw my bit in here: have nearly 13k subs, over 1.6 million views, some videos with hundreds of thousands of views by themselves.

 

£1,860 earned from that. Since September 2017. Two years. That's a life-changing salary of £930 pa (though it's by no means equally divided).

 

I'm fortunate, I do YT on the side, I have a full-time job, the bills are paid. This works out as some brilliant pocket money.

 

People doing Youtube full-time have to work hard to make it work. The stress is unbearable for me at times and I do one video a month, max, with no social media. Can't imagine how bad it must get for people who put in real effort and actually talk to people.

[Lorfarius]

35 minutes ago, ianinthefuture said:

 

Agree with all of that, just quoting this bit as I can throw my bit in here: have nearly 13k subs, over 1.6 million views, some videos with hundreds of thousands of views by themselves.

 

Been watching your stuff for ages, thought the Syndicate episode was great!

[nakamura]

5 hours ago, Bluejam said:

I think this nonsense over the last few days has been eye opening in that

 

(1) The Spectrum scene is dreadful

 

(2) Twitter is a cesspit

 

(3) This should have all been dealt with privately. If she didn’t agree with what had been decided upon that would have been the time to rant on twitter. The “bed” video was released at a time when things had apparently been agreed and ‘signed off’

 

(4) This has been an interesting insight on an individual who appears to have difficulty is separating her You Tube character and real life. That’s in my view btw

(5) Whether Andrews dealt with this appropriately is almost irrelevant now. For the record, i think he could have dealt with it a lot better but then again, maybe she could have too? 
 

Anyway, when’s the Spectrum Next coming out? 

I agree with most of this. 

 

Everything gets done in public nowadays, which can aid a mob mentality which isn't good for anyone. I've seen a few different occasions of this recently which have resulted in allegations against people I know personally that are untrue. 

 

People wade in without the facts. Social media and gaming has some real growing up to do. 

[Dudley]

Yeah, admittedly mine are (as with Ian and Lorf) on the high end of work per minute but putting out a full Yesterzine a fortnight would represent most of my non-work time.  I have literally 0 monetisation routes though, so I'm just making stuff I like and developing some skills.  Plus there's some good stories to tell, some of which haven't been done to death on YouTube yet.

 

If you just do "Play a game and improvise bollocks", there's plenty of those but Octavius is very much in "our" category rather than that.

[Lorfarius]

10 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

If you just do "Play a game and improvise bollocks", there's plenty of those but Octavius is very much in "our" category rather than that.

 

This was most of my content

[Dudley]

You had the research!  Mine is "Play game and tightly script bollocks"

[maryliddon]

Hey Anstream people on this thread.

 

Are any of the Horace games on your platform?

 

One of your directors, Darren Melbourne, is also in business with Andrews for The C64 project so the rights shouldn’t be an issue.

 

 

[Stoppy2000]

11 hours ago, Bluejam said:

Really? REALLY? 

Was this real?? It doesn't appear to be anywhere now??

[peteprodge]

11 hours ago, Bluejam said:

Viewers who are not bored with the whole thing maybe interested to know that Pete Prodge joined Spectrum For Everyone to start a post about George Cropper attacking his copyright permissions on his Bum Fun Gaming titles.  The mods closed it almost immediately

 

One moderator locked it, citing that he believed George Cropper's Bum Fun Gaming shop had acted within copyright law. No evidence to support that theory, he just felt George was in the right.

 

However, had he looked a bit more carefully, and listened to other people on Spectrum For Everyone, he'd realise George Cropper has actually been taking other people's DeviantArt work without permission for starters.

 

And then, we get to the real meat. 'George Cropper' has been selling on Nintendo ROMs for personal profit.

 

 

So there you go. This isn't faked, it isn't a joke, it's very much real.

 

It's in stark contrast to his YouTube rants against people who breach IP rights, isn't it? And does his friend, the overly-zealous guardian of IP, Paul Andrews have any comment to make on George's blatant profit-making piracy? Do YOU have a view on this?

 

11 hours ago, Bluejam said:

I believe he was also banned from another group due to insulting various people who didn’t agree with him

 

Ah, the Facebook group which routinely allows George Cropper to call various people "spastics". Yeah, do alert me if I've ever said anything like that.

 

 

11 hours ago, Bluejam said:

Turning to Retro Princess, she has made a few posts about waiting for an apology. I hope she’s not expecting an apology over the stuffed Horace things she made as most people agree that she was in the wrong on that.

 

That's one a bit up in the air.

 

I still want to know why Paul Andrews's outlet on RedBubble has recently stopped selling some Horace-themed merchandise.

 

As Tipster's YouTube video showed, it's not 100% clear that Paul Andrews definitely owns the Horace CHARACTER. I'm not saying Retro Princess does either.

 

Answers would be welcome.

[peteprodge]

11 hours ago, SeanR said:

Man in “multiple business interests” shocker.

 

youd have a point if he was using X to advertise Y though

 

Already have a point. Paul Andrews has been acting outraged at Octav1us apparently 'sexualising' the Horace character. (Strange, all I see on Octav1us is a depiction of Horace being interviewed in a Job Centre. Is that sexual? I've heard of Rule 34, but really? Is this a thing Paul Andrews has, like a 'dole fetish'?)

 

Anyway, Paul's objection is that Horace is apparently 'sexualised' and that he is actually a "family-friendly" IP he has bought.

 

It's an interesting angle to take, you know, playing the Mary Whitehouse card, because, er, that'll go down well with a mostly-male audience aged between 30-50 who were already brought up on the somewhat cheeky and lewd humour that could be found in Your Sinclair.

 

And, I really don't think we can forget the fact that Paul Andrews, when questioned by another poster in this thread, is actually okay with George Cropper's FunkySpectrum reviews of the Horace games on YouTube, stating how one character likes to go round acting like Kevin Spacey, anally fingering people. That's a mere summary, if you play the full thing, it's very very crude and graphic.

 

Things really don't add up. The more questions being asked about Paul Andrews, the more illogical all this is.

 

As I say, I'm getting the same feeling from this, as I did over Tim Langdell and Steve Wilcox.

 

[gone fishin]

32 minutes ago, peteprodge said:

 

 

And, I really don't think we can forget the fact that Paul Andrews, when questioned by another poster in this thread, is actually okay with George Cropper's FunkySpectrum reviews of the Horace games on YouTube, stating how one character likes to go round acting like Kevin Spacey, anally fingering people. That's a mere summary, if you play the full thing, it's very very crude and graphic.

 

Things really don't add up. The more questions being asked about Paul Andrews, the more illogical all this is.

 

 

 

So what? As it’s been said countless times in this thread, having video game footage with commentary is considered transforming the game and is Fair Use. Having a trademarked character in the video opens it up to legal challenge. Even if Andrews has some relationship with George Cropper, he wouldn’t have a fucking leg to stand on if he asked the video to be removed. Or any Horace video game commentary for that matter.

 

But you know what? We get it you don’t like Andrews. You don’t like George Cropper. But give it a fucking rest.

[SeanR]

[Bluejam]

So someone called Chinnyvision (never heard of him), is so shocked at the personal attacks against Octavius on twitter is now making personal attacks against Andrews, er, on twitter regarding his looks.

 

 

[Peter St John]

9 minutes ago, Bluejam said:

So someone called Chinnyvision (never heard of him)

 

Long-standing member of World of Stuart (ah, halcyon days…at least before Stu went completely off the rails), part of the Be Excellent To Each Other forum, and also a retro YouTuber for the past few years.

[SeanR]

12 minutes ago, Bluejam said:

So someone called Chinnyvision (never heard of him), is so shocked at the personal attacks against Octavius on twitter is now making personal attacks against Andrews, er, on twitter regarding his looks.

 

 

 

blatant lies, and misrepresentation of the facts, in that twitter thread, are blatant.

[Bluejam]

58 minutes ago, Peter St John said:

Be Excellent To Each Other forum,

 

[Bluejam]

She won’t shut up either.

[SeanR]

[Clipper]

[Droo]

I’m bored of this now. 

[Rex Grossman]

Retro community drama is the lamest drama.

[peteprodge]

11 hours ago, gone fishin' said:

So what? As it’s been said countless times in this thread, having video game footage with commentary is considered transforming the game and is Fair Use. Having a trademarked character in the video opens it up to legal challenge.

 

About Horace being a trademarked character.

 

I can see in the UK IPO database that a company run by Paul Andrews has registered trademarks on certain things in gaming history. [url=https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmtext/page/Results]The Manic Miner and Jet Set Willy logos are trademarked, along with a rather 'non-canon' sprite[/url].

 

What I can't see, is Horace being trademarked.

 

And let's remember, any legal dispute over the way Octavius has used the character of Horace in her presenter links, will be a trademark dispute rather than one based on copyright.

 

So what's in the IPO database for Horace? Well, the term 'Hungry Horace' is registered by a man in Northern Ireland in the context of jam and honey products. The term 'Horace' is registered by a man in London for underwear and swimwear. None of these have anything to do with retrogaming or Paul Andrews.

 

The thing is, and I've tried really hard, I cannot find any trademark for the Horace character from those ZX Spectrum games. Absolutely nothing.

 

You can see why I'm being reminded of Tim Langdell from the Edge and Elite's Steve Wilcox's recent boundary-breaking claims.

 

Maybe I've got it wrong? Does someone out there have proof Paul Andrews owns the Horace trademark?

 

 

11 hours ago, gone fishin' said:

 Even if Andrews has some relationship with George Cropper, he wouldn’t have a fucking leg to stand on if he asked the video to be removed. Or any Horace video game commentary for that matter.

 

Frivolous copyright claims have done such a thing before.

 

And this is more than just about Octavius.

 

If Paul Andrews can get away with this questionable IP claim, then there's no doubt he can go after anyone of us.

 

He's been demanding WOS take down screenshots and inlay scans of Mel Croucher's games. Fair enough if it was the actual games, but screenshots and inlays are fair use.

 

But hey, you can sit back and cheerlead for over-zealous businessmen firing off dodgy claims on copyrights if you want. Yeah, that'll really help retrogaming.

 

11 hours ago, gone fishin' said:

 

But you know what? We get it you don’t like Andrews. You don’t like George Cropper. But give it a fucking rest.

 

I used to like Paul Andrews. I supported him. In the ZX Vega+ saga, he was very much the good guy, facing off against the crooks David Levy and Suzanne Martin, who eventually legged it with a huge amount of money. I heavily backed Paul Andrews in the Vega+ FB group.

 

I remember George Cropper putting out his videos, commentating on the situation. I never found him funny. Sounds like a man trying to impersonate all three puppets from Rainbow at once, and spewing out a load of infantile and crude abuse. It's sub-Keith-Lemon stuff. Still, humour is subjective. What really rankled was his repeated use of "spastics" at people. Yes, Levy and Martin were vile con artists, and I did hear of one incident where someone trolled Paul Andrew's MS-afflicted wife, which made me furious.

 

Even then though, I did raise my objections to George Cropper constantly going below the belt. (And it's strange how that crude immature 'humour', with the same motivations, is very much evident in a network of parody trolling accounts on Twitter, isn't it?)

 

A while ago, when Digitiser The Series became a thing - with Octavius and other YouTubers being hosts in a rather silly and surreal series on YouTube, I do recall quite a bit of negativity towards it on the Vega+ FB group. And then, when Larry Bundy Jnr announced he was going to make a video on the two Vega+s he had obtained, the group were very interested, waiting for him to stick it to David Levy, Suzanne Martin, Lee Fogarty, etc.

 

What actually happened was that Larry Bundy and Octavius decided to prat about with a Vega+, showing how it could be used to cut cheese slices. It was an incredibly silly video. Yes, immature, but not offensive. Nothing different to the silliness you'd get in Your Sinclair or Amiga Power.

 

Paul Andrews, George Cropper/Jamie Ball and others were really angered by this. Not casually dismissing it, but going full out against it, really incensed by its existence.

 

And then a funny thing happened. Those trolling parody accounts on Twitter surfaced, alongside existing ones that targeted David Levy, Jan Saggiori, Suzanne Martin and Lee Fogarty. They made a load of personal attacks against Octavius and Larry Bundy Jnr. It's not just them in the firing line - Retro Princess, Aravelle, Top Hat Gaming Man, Kim Justice and many others have been flamed. Myself and ChinnyVision appear to be added to their hate list this week.

 

Just a few 'coincidences' as we wonder what the true motivation is behind taking Octavius's channel with a questionable 'copyright' claim.

 

But hey, you can certainly take the other side of the argument, be a Mr Logic tribute act and bleat "but she breached IP".

 

In a scene where 99% of people download game files for emulation, do the old "Type OK or move joystick left then right" move to confirm they really do own that original physical hardware (yeah right), I don't think being a copyright maximalist is going to endear you to the community. Still, you're welcome to your strangely informed opinions and you can praise IP bullies if that's your thing.

 

 

 

[SeanR]

*yawn*