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Anyone got an OG Xbox, 360 and a copy of Outrun 2/C2C on here?

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I recently got hold of a proper Component cable (ie not a cheapo fiver version with no shielding) for the OG Xbox and thought I'd give Outrun 2/C2C a spin on proper hardware because 2 runs like crap on the 360 and C2C is better but there are still a few small glitches that weren't present on the original hardware.

Got to say I was stunned at how much better the game looked via 360, it looks like they upped the internal resolution in comparison to the original hardware as the image quality in terms of assets looked so much better as the OG looked quite jagged in comparison. On the other hand both titles just ran a heck of a lot smoother with a solid 60FPS which was buttery but the image quality thing was so huge that I'm surprised no one else has ever commented on it.

OG Xbox is modded to output HD signal and I messed around with the settings to try 480p/720p/1080i and still the 360 looked way better.

Any ideas why? Interested to hear from anyone who has the necessary bits and bobs to see how their experience was because the last time I used the proper hardware was on an old school CRT and even when switching between both inputs running the same game on my 1080p TV now the leap is just so huge on the 360 that its like a half way remaster.

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Yeah the Xbox 360 version does look way better due to the HDMI and 1080p support, that said there are quite a few different releases of Outrun 2 on Xbox and PS2, not least because AM2 did some of the Japanese ports and Sumo Digital did the western versions. Most of the earlier version don't have proper 16:9, looking at Outrun 2006 on Xbox the games supports widescreen, but the hud elements don't giving it a strange miss match.

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It really is amazing how different/much better it looks on the 360. Before getting the OG Xbox out I was in rose tinted mode with memories of how it used to look on the CRT and felt the 360 version was a bit naff in comparison but when switching between the two its evident that the BC version is more than just upscaled as its definitely got some kind of anti alias filter along with a higher internal resolution as the assets looks so much better.

 

Side by side C2C is far closer in terms of overall quality of emulation even though I used to think O2 was the better game but now that has changed as well because aside from its huge frame dips via BC C2C just tweaks something already excellent into sheer awesomeness.

 

Has anyone got a modded 360 with the hacked/updated BC game pack installed? If so does that improve the framerate or are there any settings/config files one can tinker with to optimize it as its easily the most playable title ever.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off for a Magical Sound Shower!

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Video out on the OG xbox is pure shit no matter the connection. I've tried everything going. It has a system level smoothing filter, that's why everything's so damn dark and blurry you can only bypass it with hacks. I can't find the link now but was looking into it last year. 

 

Dreamcast has the best quality video out of all the pre hdmi generation which showed how far Sega were ahead of the game.. In 1998!

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The easiest way to play this as God himself intended is to get the PC version. It supports Xbox pads out of the box, you can force high resolutions using supersampling, and is so low demand you can run it on just about any computer imaginable. There are a couple of mods to make it more like the arcade experience (if you can be arsed) and don't forget to enable bloom :)

 

 

 

You'll need a cracked, high seas version these days anyway, as obviously the licence has expired. It's easy enough to get hold of though :)

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8 minutes ago, Treble said:

The easiest way to play this as God himself intended is to get the PC version. It supports Xbox pads out of the box, you can force high resolutions using supersampling, and is so low demand you can run it on just about any computer imaginable. There are a couple of mods to make it more like the arcade experience (if you can be arsed) and don't forget to enable bloom :)

 

 

 

You'll need a cracked, high seas version these days anyway, as obviously the licence has expired. It's easy enough to get hold of though :)

 

That explains why I never liked the PC version, bloom lighting! The lighting was subtly tweaked in C2C as well along with a slightly less vivid feel which is why O2 used to be my first choice all round. For some reason though I always, always, always found the OG Xbox version to be the closest in vibe to the arcade one with its chunky aesthetic which the PC one didn't have as (even without the lighting) it all felt a bit too clean at such a high resolution compared to the arcade version.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Down by Law said:

Video out on the OG xbox is pure shit no matter the connection. I've tried everything going. It has a system level smoothing filter, that's why everything's so damn dark and blurry you can only bypass it with hacks. I can't find the link now but was looking into it last year. 

 

Dreamcast has the best quality video out of all the pre hdmi generation which showed how far Sega were ahead of the game.. In 1998!

 

Ah, that makes a lot of sense because I did wonder why the DC looked so pin sharp in comparison when both used to be great on CRT. You learn something new! That link would be interesting to read as would any info on what MS actually did on their 360 remasters from a technical perspective because its obviously been improved as mentioned.

 

 

Has anyone played the Beta O2 for the OG Xbox? If so how is it and whats the difference?

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It is a bit weird that the display output was so muddy during the sixth gen. It's a bit like this on the quality scale:

 

Xbox-------PS2------------------------------------------------------------------------------Gamecube-------------Dreamcast

 

The GC is almost on par with the DC's VGA when pushed through component and using prog scan, but the other two are garbage even when you reach the heady heights of 480p.

 

I had a VGA adapter for my modded Xbox, back in the day. Looked marginally better!!

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Yeah the GC used to look stunning via that "2 cables for the price of 4, now sliced into 1" lead that you needed for progressive but it made F Zero GX look so ace. The muddiness was why I avoided the PS2 (along with the bucketfulls of fog so many titles had on there) as it was worse than the OG Xbox and made so many titles look washed out which after the super vibrant DC was really quite meh.

 

The DC really was something else, way ahead of its time in so many respects. If anything I wish Sega would just optimize Reicast and create their own official DC portable with a digital download model and wireless multiplay complete with the old catalogue (whatever they could license) as the games still hold up in terms of visuals and play plus so many people don't even know what it is these days.

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In all honesty, this is why emulation is so, so important. There's a tiny window in which publishers will deem old consoles viable for a mini-resurrection, which is basically when the original audience reaches middle age and hits peak mid-life crisis :D

 

Outside of this, no-one except you, me and the fencepost give a monkey's about proper, licenced re-releases. Well, that's a slight exaggeration: we're seeing a bit of a generalised boom in nostalgia right now but, I'd wager it's down to gaming becoming mainstream, and the people who put hand-in-trou to make them successful back in the nineties getting all misty-eyed for their youth.

 

There are back catalogues out there on stores, and remakes of mega hits, but the overwhelming majority of a system's titles can and will be lost to history without regular people curating them. I tend to back the devs of emulators with cold, hard cash these days to show my appreciation.

 

For the Dreamcast, Redream is an absolute marvel. I've not had chance to try it on Android yet, but hear it's amazing there too. Anyway, what a thread derail, sorry!

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I bought Outrun 2 on more platforms than pretty much any other game - 2 on Xbox; 2006 on PC, PSP, PS2; Online Arcade. I still have Online Arcade on my 360's hard drive, and I still have the PC game (i.e the original physical disc I bought from Virgin Megastores, back when Virgin Megastores was a thing.)

 

2006 is a nightmare to get running on modern PCs, but I did have a look earlier this year - you need all manner of weird fan-patches and stuff... and even then there were issues recognising my controllers, but it can kind of be done. I feel like the PC version has the sharpest and smoothest experience but I'm equally happy playing on 360. :) 

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Ah that was it, the OG xbox has a 'flicker filter' which basically completely fucks the image.

 

https://www.avforums.com/threads/xbox-flicker-filter-and-why-the-picture-is-soft-from-rgb-scart.196390/

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=original%20xbox%20flicker%20filter&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&safe=active&gws_rd=ssl#spf=1570714561070

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Yeah I really appreciate the 360 version of C2C now after the side by side, its nigh on the definitive version even though Online Arcade looked the best as its was true HD but a very barebones version of the game. PSP one was really impressive to be able to pocket the arcade experience.

 

Its crazy these games will likely never be remastered or BC'd on newer platforms due to the various licenses (Shell, AMD, Ferrari etc..) at play even though all Sega have to do is edit the graphics and get it out there. I'd buy it again on a current/nexgen platform in an instant as its got an endless amount of replayability.

 

Thanks for the info DbL, that explains a lot. Just tried it out via XBMC which has the patcher built in (My apps/settings to enable) and there certainly is a difference:

https://www.xbmc4xbox.org.uk/wiki/Programs

 

Picture quality looks so much better with it turned off, image could do with a good alias but its miles better than before, thanks.

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3 hours ago, Treble said:

The easiest way to play this as God himself intended is to get the PC version. It supports Xbox pads out of the box, you can force high resolutions using supersampling, and is so low demand you can run it on just about any computer imaginable. There are a couple of mods to make it more like the arcade experience (if you can be arsed) and don't forget to enable bloom :)

 

 

 

You'll need a cracked, high seas version these days anyway, as obviously the licence has expired. It's easy enough to get hold of though :)

 

Thanks for this ! Didn't think it would work but it works flawlessly, 60fps, on my £70 potato PC from ebay a few years ago with the onboard graphics !

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I know I'm probably in a minority but I'd be equally happy to buy Nondescript Red Car Racing Game if it had a different red car but the feel of OR2 was intact :wub: Kind of like how Sega Racing Classic is just Daytona but they couldn't use the Daytona name. (Okay, not quite like that :P )

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1 hour ago, S0L said:

 

This isn't entirely right, we did all of the versions released on console, Japanese ones included. Japanese releases were typically later than the Western ones which gave a little more time to optimise, plus we had various requests from SEGA and AM2 on those for their domestic market, but we still did the legwork. 

 

I was always a bit disappointed with the 360 BC for C2C. It did something weird with the anti-aliasing of textures so for example the lines on the road weren't quite right, effectively it was forcing some kind of tri-linear filtering. Framerate is a little better, but at the expense of detail. 

 

You've already been pointed at the PC version along with the community edits/updates. These days I feel this is the best option. 

 

Trust me, we do still try to look at an update on modern consoles as well as getting it on the Xbox One BC (I tried again during Crackdown3 as I had a hot line into MS, without success sadly). License is generally the sticking point though, it'd be easy enough to remove the Shell and AMD adverts, but the Ferrari's, not so easy :)

 

Couldn't you work something out like Outrun 3D where they changed the main car to look less like a Ferrari and more like a Nondescript Red Racing Car and get it back out there using that as a workaround? Failing that if you've still got your MS contacts how about whipping together a new update for the 360 BC (yeah, I'm optimistic) which fixes all the problems with the emulation? Its obvious they only booted it to the title screen and said "That'll do" before punting it out there in comparison to their other updates and with some attention it should be running perfectly as far more complex titles with far more polish do and look/play better than they ever have with an almost next gen upgrade.

 

If you look around the various boards if there is one title that comes up again and again on port begging/BC request/why can't I play this on modern systems threads its O2/C2C because there really is nothing else like it. PC version doesn't count for me, it doesn't "feel" the same as the console versions for some reason although I didn't spend much time with it.

 

BTW props for making such a great conversion, one thing I'd really like to see at some point when it gets updated is an option to turn off the various UI elements so you can just have a totally clear screen with no HUD (tweakable if you wish to keep certain things there) because that would really add to the overall blue skies experience.

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Red Ferraris and Outrun go hand in hand, that I'd agree with and given the artwork/models etc.. that would have to be redone to be close but not quite in order to get it back out there I can see how you think it would lose something but on the other hand the world would also gain something. Namely Outrun 2: Remastered featuring Generic Red Sports Car.

 

The marque truly is a small part of the blue skies drifting with tunes bumping experience and no matter what everyone would know what it is, after all people have done similar before:

 

latest?cb=20150529202424

 

66651443-770-0@2X.jpg?rev=1

 

Plus they've jacked games for inspiration before anyway:

 

yzxpje6e8in8y82rjpfs.Jpg

 

ferrari_p80_c_shake_down_07_manzoni.jpg

 

 

Given how popular crowd funding is these days (see Shenmue III) I'm surprised they don't consider that as an option. Or even *shudder* a mobile game.

 

Whats so amazing about O2 is that it looks, feels and plays exactly how you imagined the original to in your head back in the days and it came from pretty much out of nowhere as nobody was expecting a real sequel, let alone one so good and when the home conversion came it wasn't just on par, it actually went beyond.

 

I'm actually tempted to mod my 360 just to see if I can play around with the wrapper pack they used to BC the games and mod some better settings out of it. Now thats dedication. And that alone should speak volumes as to the audience for this game because its a popular topic on many forums with everyone asking when its going to happen.

 

Sort it out, ref!

 

 

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Well I’ll keep trying in the meantime. Usually when it comes close to one of the firms anniversaries, I go ‘We really should go back to the start and do OutRun again’ in 4 years it’ll be twenty years. Hope it doesn’t take that long!, 

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Make accounts on the major game forums, get verified as being part of the team so people know you're on the up and up and then make a thread called "Would you like to see Outrun on a modern platform?". Once the threads get traction aggregate them and approach one of the bigger editorial gaming sites and have them run a feature based on that along with an interview with yourselves about the kind of things you've spoken about on here.

 

Sit back, watch the views/comments roll in and next time you go to a meeting with Sega you can say "BTW heres an article with a few million hits showing there is a demand for it and it was all inspired by this dude right here so make sure you slice him something off that cheque for making it happen". :sherlock:

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On 10/10/2019 at 12:40, Luck said:

It really is amazing how different/much better it looks on the 360. Before getting the OG Xbox out I was in rose tinted mode with memories of how it used to look on the CRT and felt the 360 version was a bit naff in comparison but when switching between the two its evident that the BC version is more than just upscaled as its definitely got some kind of anti alias filter along with a higher internal resolution as the assets looks so much better.

 

Side by side C2C is far closer in terms of overall quality of emulation even though I used to think O2 was the better game but now that has changed as well because aside from its huge frame dips via BC C2C just tweaks something already excellent into sheer awesomeness.

 

Has anyone got a modded 360 with the hacked/updated BC game pack installed? If so does that improve the framerate or are there any settings/config files one can tinker with to optimize it as its easily the most playable title ever.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off for a Magical Sound Shower!

 

 

I have modded 360's, but with the OG Xbox versions on them. Would they display/play differently to the 360 versions?

 

I share my Live profile on the modded machines with my online profile (by way of USB, which goes into a standard Jasper 360 to upload the new gamer score on line), so if i play Outrun and it then shows on my profile with an achievement for the game, as i haven't bought it, the ban hammer comes down.

 

Hence i went for the OG X box games, in order to play it/them.

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1 hour ago, Pavey said:

 

 

I have modded 360's, but with the OG Xbox versions on them. Would they display/play differently to the 360 versions?

 

I share my Live profile on the modded machines with my online profile (by way of USB, which goes into a standard Jasper 360 to upload the new gamer score on line), so if i play Outrun and it then shows on my profile with an achievement for the game, as i haven't bought it, the ban hammer comes down.

 

Hence i went for the OG X box games, in order to play it/them.

 

The 360 version was called Online Arcade and thats totally different as its a bare bones basic cut down remaster. What I'm wondering is if the hacked/updated BC compatibility pack improves the BC emulation for O2/C2C, specifically the framerate as O2s first stage runs like crap when there is a lot on screen as the framerate dip is quite visible.

 

Aside from that I'm also wondering about the format of the BC files in the pack, after all if they hacked it to add more it must mean there is some kind of database with settings which has me thinking in SNES Mini/Canoe mode of tweaking configs using other modes etc.. in order to get better emulation as the style on both consoles seems to follow a similar pattern and with a few tweaks the OG versions on BC could become definitive as the console has enough grunt, just MS didn't spend any effort on these titles.

 

If my machine was modded/could find someone to sort it I'd start playing around with it myself as I don't have any more soldering irons etc.. to do it myself these days

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9 hours ago, bplus said:

So when a game is made backwards compatible, the licenses have to be re acquired??

 

I'm not a professional (although I have watched it on TV) but I think so because the BC on Xbox One uses the original disk to verify you own it and then downloads a wrapped version for you to actually play, hence its being redistributed and contracts are in effect viz the licenses that expired and are now in play elsewhere.

 

I watched this video earlier about the state of OG Xbox emulation as I always thought it should be easy given that it was a chopped down PC but nope, there is much more to it than that:

 

 

Also made me realize how the OG Xbox was in many ways Dreamcast 2 but more successful as the structure was so similar. I'm surprised that no one has tapped the raw video signals out of the OG though to get the best possible picture quality out of it yet.

 

Aside from a modern port or the afore mentioned tweaks the only other chance we'll see it on modern platforms is if someone cracks the Xbox One security and creates custom wrappers like they did for PS3 - PS2 BC back when which is why I think that having a look at the 360s emulation methods and seeing if they can be tweaked is the most viable option as that BC is around 80% of the way there anyway.

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A compilation disk with all the offending licences removed, but instead containing Outrun, Outrun 2, Sega Rally, Daytona, Jet Set Radio Future.... I'd pay £50 for that.

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I've often wondered why sega don't do more compilations. The driving compilations  (outruns, daytonas, rallys, even Manx tt and touring cars etc) the fighting compilation (virtuas, vipers, last bronx, even megamix) give the genesis games a rest now for a bit.

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I'm surprised that no one has tapped the raw video signals out of the OG though to get the best possible picture quality out of it yet.

 

As I mentioned, there were third-party devices to get a 480p or 720p signal out of a modded box, over VGA (using standard Dsub). So 720p is the highest quality you could possibly get. I had this exact unit:

 

x2vga.png

 

Turns out it's pretty rare now, and I should have kept hold of it!

 

Otherwise, buy yourself a cheap Xbox component cable, then a component -> VGA converter if needed. Again, you'll need a modded unit to get the prog scan options in a lot of cases, I think.

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I've got a modded one with the official component cable. You can go into the menu and select 480p 720p and 1080i. 

 

They all look the same - totally shit. I've only noticed one game actually look decent which was Soul Calibur II which supports 720p. Yet it still looks worse than the Dreamcast original over VGA does. 

 

It's a shame the OG xbox has a bunch of my favourite games hostage because I would rather play them on literally anything else. 

 

 

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On 11/10/2019 at 17:12, S0L said:

 

This isn't entirely right, we did all of the versions released on console, Japanese ones included. Japanese releases were typically later than the Western ones which gave a little more time to optimise, plus we had various requests from SEGA and AM2 on those for their domestic market, but we still did the legwork. 

 

I was always a bit disappointed with the 360 BC for C2C. It did something weird with the anti-aliasing of textures so for example the lines on the road weren't quite right, effectively it was forcing some kind of tri-linear filtering. Framerate is a little better, but at the expense of detail. 

 

You've already been pointed at the PC version along with the community edits/updates. These days I feel this is the best option. 

 

Trust me, we do still try to look at an update on modern consoles as well as getting it on the Xbox One BC (I tried again during Crackdown3 as I had a hot line into MS, without success sadly). License is generally the sticking point though, it'd be easy enough to remove the Shell and AMD adverts, but the Ferrari's, not so easy :)

 

That's interesting, so Sumo did the Japanese versions also, the trouble with doing it that way that is it makes Sega looks unprofessional. It's a common issue in the past on the 32bit systems. As you end up with lots of different skews of the same games, some vastly better than others as was the case with Daytona CE on Saturn as well. So you end up now in a case where the NTSC/U and PAL versions are largely ignored in favour of the Japanese version. Which have since rocketed in price in the case of Outrun.

 

I take it you are from Sumo? I actually worked with the studio on the PSP version of Split Second and they did a great job of the port, considering the system's limitations, compared to the 360 & PS3 hardware. Also still owe the Sumo producer on it a beer for helping me get my next job.

 

The trouble with the Xbox 360 port was it was very bare bones compared to coast to coast (I'm guessing Microsoft XBLA size limits at the time.). What I'd love to see now is a modern port with all the content and more from the final Japanese release of the game. We could really do with a full Outrun collection of the whole series as quite a few titles in the series never got a decent home port, Outrunners for one.

 

On 10/10/2019 at 12:55, Down by Law said:

Video out on the OG xbox is pure shit no matter the connection. I've tried everything going. It has a system level smoothing filter, that's why everything's so damn dark and blurry you can only bypass it with hacks. I can't find the link now but was looking into it last year. 

 

Dreamcast has the best quality video out of all the pre hdmi generation which showed how far Sega were ahead of the game.. In 1998!

 

Only a modded Xbox original can get around that issue, with a program to adjust or turn off the fliter, but the filter is terrible, I was trying out the system with the Open Source San Converter the other week, but most games just looks gash as if the screen is smeared with grease.

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