Obi-Wan Series - Friday 27th May

[Dirty Harry Potter]

15 hours ago, b00dles said:

Is there any definitive proof that it was Kathleen Kennedy that was really the one making any of these stipulations? She's had a great career and produced and exec produced loads of amazing movies but somehow she has now become Satan because the films she didn't write or direct weren't very good. I don't know otherwise either but I don't imagine it's all her fault as much as people like to blame her for it. 

I think it’s pretty clearly Lucas gave Kathy the gig as she was an old trusted friend who was great at organising things. I suspect he also thought he was being pretty clever - as he could sell to Disney - yet still have a close confident that would let him have his say by proxy on all the important stuff. 
 

What Lucas failed to grasp was Kathy’s ambition, and that she would throw him under the bus at the first hurdle - to prove herself as more, than the yes women who had run Spielberg’s productions like clockwork for years.
 

But instead she has become the yes women to Disney’s board. And that is why she has taken the flak and so much criticism. Need these movies out in 3 years come what may? No problem Mr Iger. Who cares that there is no coherent strategy or narrative plan  - just make as many SW films as you can and get us our money back.

 

 

 

 

[Uncle Mike]

It's excellent if Kennedy is at fault, because then everyone can get back to blaming women.

[kensei]

As much as the above is generally bollocks, she obviously carries some of the fault, being as she is President of Lucasfilm and with huge influence over Star Wars. 

[Kevvy Metal]

From my alternative perspective, Star Wars hasn’t been this fruitful and entertaining in years and years, and Kathleen Kennedy has over seen the production of 5 hugely entertaining films, as well as three fantastic TV shows and pulling the lore in much tighter with a great series of cross media like the comics and books. 
 

I’m loving all this Star Wars stuff that I never thought would ever be the case again. Sure The Clones Wars picked up but this is all so much better than the prequel period days. 

[kensei]

I liked both Rogue One and Solo a far but, and enjoyed most of the new trilogy while not really thinking they were better than an average Marvel movie. The Mandalorian was the best bit of Star Wars in decades. She deserves credit for all the good bits and getting some of those films through pretty troubled development. 

 

But the idea that *checks notes* the President of Lucasfilm is only getting flack from fans because she is a woman... well she's in charge of the overall plan and if you're annoyed by the lack of one, it's either her or Disney. And Lucas got a lot of shit too.

[b00dles]

If the avatar films are shit, will it be Bob igers fault, or Cameron? 

Nothing has been said here that's remotely definitive and is all supposition. So what if she's president? What's your least favourite of the marvel movies? Iron man 3 wasn't very popular but feige didn't get the blame for that one. 

Who was responsible for the recent cats movie being bad? Was it the president of Warner's or the director of the film?

 

There is undoubtedly some differently attributed blame because it's star wars and I'm not saying she's blameless either but I'm more inclined to think it's a broader issue than just all her fault. 

Given the amount of strange and idiotic responses to daisy Ridley, Kelly Marie Tran and so on, there is clearly some sort of misogyny linked to all of this. 

[Dirty Harry Potter]

It would be mainly Cameron’s fault - as he is the show runner and creative mind behind all of the 18 Avatar films he has planned. 

[Sarlaccfood]

Not sure if it’s sexism or didn’t-like-TLJism, but it’s definitely a bit weird that sacking directors and having reshoots is perfectly fine if you’re Kevin Feige but an absolute stinking garbage-fire of a production if you’re Kathy Kennedy.

[JohnC]

I don’t remember people being fine with Gunn being fired and some concern with Wright and Derrickson being fired/leaving. 

[Sarlaccfood]

51 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I don’t remember people being fine with Gunn being fired and some concern with Wright and Derrickson being fired/leaving. 

Just have to scroll up thread. You’re right but seems people have short memories about that stuff when they’re trying to make a point about Kennedy.

[Pob]

The ratio of production woes to released films is far higher with Star Wars than the MCU though. Not that I mind - judging purely by the final products I would hazard I guess she made the right decisions for those individual films. It's just the overarching narrative and production timescales that were misjudged in hindsight.

 

As for only women bearing the brunt of fans' ire - what about Rian Johnson? After TLJ he got it with both barrels - I don't remember Kennedy getting much heat back then.

[Harsin]

Circa Age of Ultron everyone online was blaming Ike Perlmutter for the films looking like they were starting to become a bit of a mess and the run-ins with creatives. Then Disney, to try and avoid issues from an alleged growing schism between him and Kevin Feige, relegated him to just TV shows and the comics. Now I don’t think he even has TV anymore.

[b00dles]

2 hours ago, Pob said:

The ratio of production woes to released films is far higher with Star Wars than the MCU though. Not that I mind - judging purely by the final products I would hazard I guess she made the right decisions for those individual films. It's just the overarching narrative and production timescales that were misjudged in hindsight.

 

As for only women bearing the brunt of fans' ire - what about Rian Johnson? After TLJ he got it with both barrels - I don't remember Kennedy getting much heat back then.

She got plenty of blame for letting him "ruin" star wars though. 

 

Either way, I think it's disingenuous to suggest she's completely at fault and also to not notice that there is an issue with women in relation to star wars from some of the crazier 'fans'. 

 

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that there's an issue with women in relation to Geek culture in general from certain quarters and the bigger properties end up highlighting that. Gamergate, the stuff in the fighting games communities, star wars, captain marvel, black widow and even all the boobs in GoT show that there's still a bit of 'no girls allowed' in the treehouse going on in some areas. 

[RubberJohnny]

The entire creative team on Star Wars was all-women, there's not really a way for it to be criticised that can't avoid that criticism falling inherently on women, that doesn't make the criticism invalid or coming from a sexist place. There's nothing inherently gendered about complaining about firing directors, or failing to have a story plan, or rushing out releases, so it's pretty easy to section that off from actual obvious alt-right sexist stuff.

 

That's far more nuance than crazy Star Wars  defenders have shown to date though.

[b00dles]

1 hour ago, RubberJohnny said:

The entire creative team on Star Wars was all-women, there's not really a way for it to be criticised that can't avoid that criticism falling inherently on women, that doesn't make the criticism invalid or coming from a sexist place. There's nothing inherently gendered about complaining about firing directors, or failing to have a story plan, or rushing out releases, so it's pretty easy to section that off from actual obvious alt-right sexist stuff.

 

That's far more nuance than crazy Star Wars  defenders have shown to date though.

I just had a look on IMDb and what are you counting as the creative team because lots of the writers, producers and exec producers are men.

 

I'm not for a minute suggesting the sequels haven't been a mess, I just found it curious how much blame Kathleen Kennedy has received for it all when, if anything,  I'd argue that a lot of the faults are very much similar to other criticisms of J.J. Abrams' style and use of "mystery box" rather than any previous apparent style of production or other things that Kathleen Kennedy has done throughout her career. 

 

I'm also not attempting to do any of the strange "all criticisms are only sexist because women were involved" kind of defences that occurred around Ghostbusters 2016 for instance. 

[Hanzo the Razor]

7 hours ago, Sarlaccfood said:

Not sure if it’s sexism or didn’t-like-TLJism, but it’s definitely a bit weird that sacking directors and having reshoots is perfectly fine if you’re Kevin Feige but an absolute stinking garbage-fire of a production if you’re Kathy Kennedy.

 

That's just Marvel fans. They'll go with anything that's shovelled down their throats and ask for seconds.

[Sarlaccfood]

2 hours ago, RubberJohnny said:

The entire creative team on Star Wars was all-women

What are you talking about?

[X_2_0]

I think there will be a really interesting behind the scenes book about this whole period at some point!

 

5 films and a TV series in 5 years is pretty crazy really, when we had the previous 6 films over 28 years.

 

This massive rush to get stuff out is what has caused the problems in my view, 2 years isn't enough time to bang out a Star Wars film, particularly when you have no overall vision of what the Trilogy is about. 

 

With a bit more time in development I'm sure the issues with both TLJ and ROSW could have been ironed out. 

 

I guess I will just have to suck up the wait for Obi-Wan and hope they get it right.

 

 

[RubberJohnny]

39 minutes ago, Sarlaccfood said:

What are you talking about?

The Story Group
 

Quote

Kathleen Kennedy founded the group in 2012 when she succeeded George Lucas as president of Lucasfilm, putting Kiri Hart, a former film and TV writer, in charge of the unit. Ms. Hart’s first move was to make the story group entirely female, starting with Rayne Roberts and Carrie Beck. 

 

[JPL]

What does the story group do? Not sure who wrote Rogue One and Solo, but didn’t Abrams write TFA and TROS, Johnson wrote TLJ and Filoni and Favreau wrote The Mandalorian?

[RubberJohnny]

Yes but the specific complaints were about the lack of a plan and firing directors, which are kind of the story groups role or Kathleens specifically.

[Harsin]

Bit unfair George Lucas dodged criticism from the fan base all these years just because he’s a dude.

[b00dles]

58 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

The Story Group
 

 

I just done a Google and the top result from wookipedia says this;

 

Quote

The Lucasfilm Story Group began as an initiative from Kathleen Kennedy in 2012. Lucasfilm Vice President Kiri Hart helped form the group as its Development Lead, with the stated goal of abolishing the canon hierarchy system in favor of a single cohesive continuity.[1][3] Lucasfilm Story Group—including Rayne Roberts, Carrie Beck, Diana Williams, Leland Chee, Pablo Hidalgo, and Matt Martin

They aren't all men and apparently now there are 12 people in it that aren't all men either. 

 

The salient point to me is more the fact that no one has ever brought up this story group in any discussion I've read on here or any of the criticisms I've seen on YouTube etc about Disney star wars and yet Kathleen Kennedy always gets a mention in regards to the blame for whatever problems are suggested. 

 

And again, I don't think they're perfect nor am I intentionally being overly defensive of sw, just the conversations around it and whose "fault" it is for not being what they wanted. 

[Dirty Harry Potter]

 

7 minutes ago, b00dles said:

I just done a Google and the top result from wookipedia says this;

 

They aren't all men and apparently now there are 12 people in it that aren't all men either. 

 

The salient point to me is more the fact that no one has ever brought up this story group in any discussion I've read on here or any of the criticisms I've seen on YouTube etc about Disney star wars and yet Kathleen Kennedy always gets a mention in regards to the blame for whatever problems are suggested. 

 

And again, I don't think they're perfect nor am I intentionally being overly defensive of sw, just the conversations around it and whose "fault" it is for not being what they wanted. 

 

FFS. Its not because she's a women - its because she runs Lucasfilm. She is the boss. She runs the show. The buck stops with her.

 

And the sequels have been a mess.

 

Its moronic to suggest that this has anything to do with her gender.

[kensei]

On 26/01/2020 at 15:41, b00dles said:

If the avatar films are shit, will it be Bob igers fault, or Cameron? 

Nothing has been said here that's remotely definitive and is all supposition. So what if she's president? What's your least favourite of the marvel movies? Iron man 3 wasn't very popular but feige didn't get the blame for that one. 

Who was responsible for the recent cats movie being bad? Was it the president of Warner's or the director of the film?

 

Those are all straw men.

 

Avatar is Cameron's baby and no executive will get fired for backing the sequels to the biggest grossing film every made. Or get any creative control at all. 

 

Iron Man 3 was well received at the time, as I recall - maybe you mean Iron Man 2? But there's a difference between the odd miss and consistent issues. Marvel has tied together an absolutely huge, unpredecented number of films. Also as soon as Marvel takes a dip, everyone will be taking shots at Feige. It's the nature of the beast. 

 

Cats is well, Cats. The reaction has been somewhere between horror and bemusement at all involved. 

[b00dles]

42 minutes ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

 

 

FFS. Its not because she's a women - its because she runs Lucasfilm. She is the boss. She runs the show. The buck stops with her.

 

And the sequels have been a mess.

 

Its moronic to suggest that this has anything to do with her gender.

I agree it's moronic but she seemingly doesn't run the show and nor does the buck stop with her, we've even seen @RubberJohnnysuggesting it's the story group in this thread. If anything that's a more believable reason than it all being Kathleen Kennedy's fault. 

 

Not one other movie gets the individualised blame that she has done for these films and I've not once seen any definitive reason as to why. 

 

@kenseiI'm not sure how other examples of films that haven't received the grief at one particular exec (who happens to be a woman) is a straw man really but in a way that's the point, there isn't any examples of this happening elsewhere and I can't understand why. As said, there is also no other mention of her getting shit for other films she has exec produced and so on. Also there is a lot of other shit that women involved with star wars have received, so it does seem an odd coincidence. 

 

The sequels are a mess but there is no reason to suggest (or tangible or even circumstantial proof, other than her running the entirety of Disney Lucasfilm). She didn't get any of the praise for the films or properties that some people did like either. If she is to blame for the sequels being shit then she should also be praised for rogue one, mandalorian or whatever else is considered better. 

 

I'd have still rather seen the lord and Miller solo personally but even that was probably more a board that made the decision than specifically her. 

 

That's sort of my only point; it doesn't make sense to only blame this one person in an exec position, it doesn't happen with any other film and it's strange that it does here. 

 

Even with the DCEU, no one at board level got the grief, I know snyder got the similar position to feige there but a board at WB appointed him and they're never mentioned. 

[JohnC]

Lucas got the blame until he stepped back.

 

As for the WB board and DCEU, I've seen plenty of criticism about them collectively not knowing what they're doing. Not so much in terms of individual names mentioned, because people don't really know who they are, unlike Kennedy who has been a big name in the franchise for a long time. I think it's safe to say that if some other known person had taken Kennedy's role and she had gone with Lucas, that other person would be getting it now.

 

JJ also RUINED Star Wars. And Rian Johnson RUINED Star Wars. And Gareth Edwards RUINED Star Wars. And Lord and Miller and Howard RUINED Star Wars.

[Hanzo the Razor]

So, that Obi-wan series eh?

[b00dles]

39 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Lucas got the blame until he stepped back.

 

As for the WB board and DCEU, I've seen plenty of criticism about them collectively not knowing what they're doing. Not so much in terms of individual names mentioned, because people don't really know who they are, unlike Kennedy who has been a big name in the franchise for a long time. I think it's safe to say that if some other known person had taken Kennedy's role and she had gone with Lucas, that other person would be getting it now.

 

JJ also RUINED Star Wars. And Rian Johnson RUINED Star Wars. And Gareth Edwards RUINED Star Wars. And Lord and Miller and Howard RUINED Star Wars.

Lucas wrote, directed and did dictate everything to do with the prequels, I just dispute the fact Kathleen Kennedy was as much to blame as some people have suggested. 

 

Anyway, I've derailed the thread about the obi wan series enough so I'll leave it. I just thought it was worth considering some of the discussion around the Disney era. 

 

Apologies if I've offended anyone or pissed people off thinking there might have been some news. 

 

Edit: good timing @Hanzo the Razor 

[Harsin]

People had plenty of blame and things to say about Rick Berman and Brannon Braga for Voyager/Enterprise/the TNG films.

 

Maybe one day scientists will be able to figure out why when people are displeased with a product they tend to look at the work of the head of the division responsible who is paid large sums to produce said product.