MiSTer: FPGA gaming

[Dr_Dave]

Aside from a few mentions in other topics, I don't see a dedicated MiSTer thread, so I thought I'd start one, as it's a rabbit hole I've been losing myself in for the last few months.

 

What is MiSTer?

 

MiSTer is an ongoing hobbyist project to implement accurate FPGA emulation for multiple old systems (at the moment, up to 16-bit consoles and computers, with NeoGeo on the way) with native HDMI output for modern TVs. The project has a dedicated wiki here:

 

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki

 

Essentially, the MiSTer project has been implemented to use a Terasic DE10-Nano FPGA board, which is expandable with various different extra components, depending on your emulation needs. Since the DE10-Nano is FPGA, systems can be emulated/simulated with a high degree of accuracy. Essentially, a properly written core can operate as close to the original hardware as possible. This means that games run without lag, at the original resolutions and refresh rates, and with a high degree of parallelism. Hence, the experience of playing games feels better than through software emulation - inputs are more responsive, there are less glitches and oddities, and the MiSTer can output to CRT monitors for that perfect nostalgic feeling.

 

 

This is mine, seen here in its "Stormtrooper" case, with USB plugs sprouting from just about everywhere. Cases seem to be getting more popular, especially as the community is settling around a standard configuration, but a lot of people just run bare boards. 

 

There's a forum for discussion, here:

 

http://www.atari-forum.com/viewforum.php?f=117

 

What systems does it run?

 

There's a full list at the wiki linked above, but essentially it is everything up to 16-bit, computers and consoles, including some computers you've never heard of (obsure Russian clones). NeoGeo is currently in beta and running really well. It also does a limited number (about 50 or so) arcade cores, generally early 80s titles. CPS1/2 is rumored to be coming soon.

 

It's not clear how much further they'll take it, the FPGA on the DE10-Nano has a limited number of gates, so systems like PS1 and Saturn may prove too much. But they had doubts about NeoGeo as well, so we'll see.

 

In my experience, it excells at home computer emulation. The C64, Amstrad and Spectrum cores are excellent, as are the 16-bit Amiga and Atari ST cores. The Amiga one in particular.

 

Why not just use RetroPie?

 

This is the big question, and the answer is that you probably should. While the MiSTer is undoubtably the better experience, there's not a lot in it. And while you can get a Pi with RetroPie, case, SD card and joypad for under a hundred quid, a fully kitted out MiSTer will probably cost you closer to £250. For most people, the RetroPie route is probably the way to go. 

 

So why choose MiSTer?

 

1. Accuracy - if you want absolute perfection, or close to it, the MiSTer is the only game in town (well, alongside dedicated FPGA recreations like the Analog Mega SG or Super NT).
2. TV output - the MiSTer is great for driving an old CRT TV, with dedicated RGB output via the VGA port.
3. Community - less tangible, but there's a great community feeling around it at the moment. The way arcade cores are being added feels a lot like the Mame scene in the late 90s. People are getting excited about Commando, for example! It's fun to be a part of.

 

What do I need?

 

To get started, you need the Terasic DE10-Nano board (around £130), which comes with an SD Card. This will allow you to run a few cores, but not all of them. To get the most out of the system, you'll also need:

 

1. SDRAM module - most cores require more accurate timing than the on-board 1Gb DDR RAM can provide. For this reason, an SDRAM module is available to plug onto the DE10. Up until a few weeks ago, 32Mb was the highest supported module, but 64Mb has just become available, with 128Gb in the works. 32Gb is still fine for most cores, but some NeoGeo games require the 64Mb - about £30
2. IO boards - this daughterboard module plugs over the DE10 and provides extra options, such as VGA out, audio in/out, buttons and LEDs. Some IO boards also come with integrated SDRAM, but I'd be wary of these, given how fluid the maximum SDRAM allowance is - about £60
3. USB hub - the DE10 Nano has a single USB port, which is a bit wobbly. For this reason, most people use either a dedicated USB hub board or a standard USB hub - about £20

 

It's also worth cooling your MiSTer, and most IO boards come with a fan mount.

 

Where do I get it?

 

You can buy the DE10-Nano directly from Terasic or other vendors, and there's even an education discount, subsidised by Intel. For the other components, various members of the community offer services for building or sourcing systems and board. 

 

I've had a really good experience with Ricardo at RetroShop: https://www.facebook.com/retroshoppontopt/ - he builds and sells complete bundles, and has some excellent aftersale support. He's also heavily involved in the community and very easy to reach.

 

Other than that, the Atari Age forum has lots of links for sellers.

 

Further reading

 

Not convinced? Here's some videos of various YouTube personalities explaining the thing:

 

Joe at Game Sack did a round up of it, about three months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dibLXWdX5-M - this is a little out of date now, and lots of the issues he raises have been dealt with.

Retromancave also covered it a few weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5yPbzD-W-I

 

 

[Treble]

It's good, and I love this kind of tech, but thinking rationally it's something for the future as far as I'm concerned. When the power increases and ass-pain systems to emulate (like the Xbox) can be mimicked, then we're talking. 

 

Not that I'm discouraging the Whales from funding all this so we get that progress, mind

[Rob_Pulsar]

I’m about to pull the trigger on one of these so great timing in the thread @Dr_Dave  

 

I like the look of your case, did you get that from RetroShop?  I’ve browsed their Facebook store and can’t see it. I’m keen to get that one myself as it looks bette than other ones I’ve seen. Would you mind sharing a link to where I can buy one please?

[Dr_Dave]

7 hours ago, Rob_Pulsar said:

I’m about to pull the trigger on one of these so great timing in the thread @Dr_Dave  

 

I like the look of your case, did you get that from RetroShop?  I’ve browsed their Facebook store and can’t see it. I’m keen to get that one myself as it looks bette than other ones I’ve seen. Would you mind sharing a link to where I can buy one please?

 

Honestly, the best thing to do is just send an FB message to Retroshop. He doesn't keep his Facebook page up to date particularly well, but he'll happily point out what you need. I got all of my setup from Ricardo, including the case - all fully assembled. With the case, and three main components, plus a few extra bits and a VGA > Scart cable, it came to about €300. Pricey, but I love it.

[shiffy]

I've been onboard the MiSTer train for nearly a year now, the system has progressed so much during the time of my ownership. The NES, Megadrive & SNES cores easily match those that are on the Analogue NT Mini, Mega SG, & Super NT systems. And then theres all the other cores. PC Engine is very good albeit with a few small niggling issues. Most 8-bit cores run extremely well. The Amiga core is very mature and cores like the Spectrum, Amstrad CPC & C64 all run very well too.

 

The most exciting developement of recent times is the Neo Geo Core. While it still hasn't been officially released many people have got their hands on the beta builds and everything seems to work extremely well. However, due to the size of some Neo Geo games the 32MB ram module that most users currently have isn't enough to run some of the more "in demand" Neo Geo games .... Metal Slug 3 & 4, the Later KOF games, SNK Vs Capcom, Garou to name a few. The project leader is currently investigating increasing the ram to accomodate these games so if you're interested in these you may want to hold off for a little while until the final design of the new ram board is finalized. (People are selling 64MB ram boards but these are unofficial designs at the moment, plus it's looking likely it may go to 128MB).

.

For the entry cost I don't think there's any better alternative to the MiSTer

[Dr_Dave]

35 minutes ago, shiffy said:

For the entry cost I don't think there's any better alternative to the MiSTer

 

Especially given last week's development of being able to get analogue video out of the HDMI port - one less reason to need the IO board now.

[kernow]

I'm wondering if this will do cave sh3 eventually

Might be a purchase then 

[shiffy]

6 hours ago, kernow said:

I'm wondering if this will do cave sh3 eventually

Might be a purchase then 

 

While I'm not familiar with "Cave SH3" (I'm assuming it's a specific board a la CPS1 or CPS2) I do know that DoDonpachi is in the works. This video isn't from a DE10-Nano FPGA but the author plans to port it to MiSTer at some point. No doubt this open the door for other Cave shooters. I'm very excited about this!

 

 

[watusi]

I quite fancy one of these for my CRT set-up. Something new and shiny to tinker with.

 

Costly though, taking a system like the PC engine or SNES I assume the main difference I'd see is performance consistent with a real machine - and reduced lag from my current PI set up?

 

 

[shiffy]

Coming from the world of a Pi, you will see an immense difference. Although I use the MiSTer over HDMI and have only experienced the "open source scaler", which apparently rivals that of the OSSC, I gather the majority of users do use this with a CRT. Up until a few weeks ago you needed to buy the I/O board if you wanted to use a CRT or monitor. But as the head of the MiSTer project has developed a way of getting an analogue signal from the HDMI port you no longer need to buy the I/O board. I haven't looked too closely at this aspect yet, but apparently all you need is one of these. There's more info on the Atari-Forums & Discord. While there are still the odd niggling issues on certain cores, for the most part you'll be hard pushed to tell the difference between real hardware and the MiSTer.

 

I think for intially outlay, the MiSTer represents the best value for money you're going to get from any "retro gaming system" now or a few years down the line. As you've mentioned the PC Engine I'll use that as my example, but I'm way out of touch with prices though.

 

PC Engine console = £100 - £140 if Ebay is to believed, RGB mods, either a collection of games or an Everdrive at £80

Then add in a SNES, the console will be a bit cheaper maybe, a collection of games or an Everdrive £90 / SD2SNES £160.

DE10-Nano cost - £130, SDram - £25 aprox, I/O board - £36 on Ebay at the moment but better to use the Atari forums,128GB MicroSD - £17,

 

For about £200 on the complete MiSTer setup you'll get accurate FPGA recreations / representations of the two consoles you mentioned, an Everdrive for each console core you install, if you're using HDMI then you're effectively getting an OSSC as well.

 

Let's say you're someone looking to get into retro and your 3 main systems of interest are Megadrive, Snes & PC Engine. Good working condition consoles will set you back quite a bit. A collection of games could be hundreds of pounds if not thousands, 3 Everdrives for the systems (assuming the best - SD2SNES pro, MD Everdrive X7 & Turbo Everdrive) would set you back £370 or there abouts. An OSSC is about £130 I believe. And that's only 3 systems. What if you're into the 8-bit stuff as well? Going the original hardware route, more expense. But the MiSTer has you covered as you already have everything you need.

 

£200 may seem like a large initial outlay (remember I'm factoring in the cost of an I/O board, it's looking very likely that will be phased out) but it really isn't when you think of it in terms as laid out above. If you also enjoy tinkering then you won't regret getting this. Admittedly, the recent "update scripts" take some of the fun out of this aspect (I had the MiSTer prior to the existance of these update scripts and you had to do everything manually) but there's a nice INI file you can edit to your heart's content to taylor settings specifically to your needs. In my case I added an option to display the image correctly on an old 16x10 monitor I occasionally use and not have the image distorted vertically in any way. The MiSTer is highly configureable in ways like this.

[watusi]

Cheers for all that info, i think you made have convinced me to take the plunge.

 

So i’d need the De-10, a memory expansion, a HDMI to VGA adaptor, and then a VGA to RGB SCART adaptor I’m guessing. No need for I/O board by the sounds of it.... 

 

Watched the videos in the OP and I’m quite excited about playing some sweet sweet old computers...

[spanky debrest]

Neo Geo looks to be incredible

 

 

[Dr_Dave]

The Neo Geo stuff is really good, even with 32Mb. 

 

I've been looking for a suitable controller to play them with, but not having much look. For some reason, SNK gimped the USB pad that came with the Neo Geo Mini so it won't work with normal USB connections. Anyone got any recommendations?

[Treble]

3 hours ago, Dr_Dave said:

The Neo Geo stuff is really good, even with 32Mb. 

 

I've been looking for a suitable controller to play them with, but not having much look. For some reason, SNK gimped the USB pad that came with the Neo Geo Mini so it won't work with normal USB connections. Anyone got any recommendations?

 

If you want a stick, there are billions of great ones that will work right out of the box. 

 

If you want to replicate the clicky SNK pad, that's significantly trickier I reckon, unless anyone here knows of an existing one that uses standard USB? 

 

Modding might be possible; I'll check into it and get back to you @Dr_Dave

 

Edit: OK, so according to a review on Amazon you can use these on PC and Pi. The question is, why would you want to when there are no miroswitches?

 

If you definitely want a pad rather than a stick, the 8bitdo range might be a good option. 

[watusi]

What about a USB Saturn pad? Or pick up a Xbox 360 fightstick?

 

im gonna take the plunge on this. I assume it’s worthwhile waiting for 128mg sdram to be released? Retroshop reckons it’ll be 2-3 weeks. 

[Dr_Dave]

3 hours ago, Treble said:

 

Edit: OK, so according to a review on Amazon you can use these on PC and Pi. The question is, why would you want to when there are no miroswitches?

 

 

Ha! Well, I bought one of the Competition Pro joystick replicas and the microswitches are so loud I've been banned from using it... so microswitches not necessarily the selling point they once might have been

 

I've actually already got the 8bitdo SNES and MD pads, and I'm trying to use appropriate controllers for the platform I'm playing. Hence looking for an appropriate Neo Geo pad for those games. Ideally, it would be an USB replica full size Neo Geo stick, but SNK don't seem to have the commercial sense to sell those

 

[watusi]

Like this neo geo usb stick?

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F254327689387

 

 

[Treble]

21 minutes ago, Dr_Dave said:

 

Ha! Well, I bought one of the Competition Pro joystick replicas and the microswitches are so loud I've been banned from using it... so microswitches not necessarily the selling point they once might have been

 

I've actually already got the 8bitdo SNES and MD pads, and I'm trying to use appropriate controllers for the platform I'm playing. Hence looking for an appropriate Neo Geo pad for those games. Ideally, it would be an USB replica full size Neo Geo stick, but SNK don't seem to have the commercial sense to sell those

 

 

I love the aesthetic design, but it was never actually that good a stick to use, truth be told :/

 

[Dr_Dave]

21 minutes ago, watusi said:

Like this neo geo usb stick?

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F254327689387

 

 

 

Ooooh, I forgot about the Neo Geo X... Anyone used the sticks?

[watusi]

21 minutes ago, Dr_Dave said:

 

Ooooh, I forgot about the Neo Geo X... Anyone used the sticks?

 

I had one of these a while back. I’ve never played on a real neo geo stick but I did think the buttons were a bit chunky / plastic feeling. Not on a par with sanwa buttons. Looked nice though

[shiffy]

9 hours ago, Dr_Dave said:

 

Ooooh, I forgot about the Neo Geo X... Anyone used the sticks?

 

Yes. I recently got one of these NG-X sticks hoping to get some authenticity with the Neo Geo core as I'm also one of these people who must the right pad for the right core. 8bitdo SN30 for the Snes core, M30 for the MD core ... etc! I have to confess I've never used a genuine Neo stick. Two words of advice on the Neo Geo X sticks though ....... DON'T BOTHER!

 

They're very clunky, I can't think of the right words to describe it but it feels as if the buttons get caught on the housing unless you press them dead centre. They just don't feel that good to me, and this was after reading / watching reviews with people saying they are okay and  close enough to the original stick. Either I got a duff unit or the quality of the Neo Geo stick was not that high to begin with. Nearly a decade ago I got myself one of those Madcatz Streetfighter sticks for the 360 (the more expensive Sanwa variation which I can't remember the exact name of at this moment). This stick has become my go to stick for the Neo Geo core. Any Xbox360 / PS3 USB stick will do I guess as anything is better than the Neo Geo X stick.

 

 

On 06/09/2019 at 22:29, watusi said:

Cheers for all that info, i think you made have convinced me to take the plunge.

 

So i’d need the De-10, a memory expansion, a HDMI to VGA adaptor, and then a VGA to RGB SCART adaptor I’m guessing. No need for I/O board by the sounds of it.... 

 

Watched the videos in the OP and I’m quite excited about playing some sweet sweet old computers...

 

Yay, another convert .... you won't be disappointed! In all seriousness, now the Neo Core is out officially the usual MiSTer Youtubers will do their usual with promoting it. And becuase of the mythical / legendary status of the Neo Geo this is going to put the MiSTer on the map. We're going to see it's popularity explode now, mark my words!

 

Here's the original thread on the Atari Forums relating to the analogue video without the I/O boad. Because I already have the I/O board this new technique for analogue video isn't something I've looked into. But it will be a hell of a lot cheaper than the I/O board, that I can guarantee you! But if you opt for this new method then you won't need the I/O board. As this new method is only a couple of weeks old there might be issues that I'm unaware of. Any bugs will be ironed though as the self-appointed project leader is excellent in that respect. The I/O board has a proven track record, and it might still be useful further down the line for something (2nd SD card slot, an input for tape decks for Speccy/C64/Amstrad tapes). It may still have a role to play if anyone starts to look more into the computer side of things (Sharp X68000, a beefier Windows 95 spec maybe). But as it stands I think the I/O board will go the way of the dinosaur.

 

You will definitely need the SDRAM expansion. Now that the 128MB version is official and the final design is in th hands of the resellers / board builders (as of two days ago) you might as well future-proof yourself and get this new version. Nobody will have this 128MB version in stock yet, all vendors are estimating 2-3 weeks as they're all buying these ram chips from the same two outlets.

 

 

 

[watusi]

8 hours ago, shiffy said:

Yay, another convert .... you won't be disappointed! In all seriousness, now the Neo Core is out officially the usual MiSTer Youtubers will do their usual with promoting it. And becuase of the mythical / legendary status of the Neo Geo this is going to put the MiSTer on the map. We're going to see it's popularity explode now, mark my words!

 

Here's the original thread on the Atari Forums relating to the analogue video without the I/O boad. Because I already have the I/O board this new technique for analogue video isn't something I've looked into. But it will be a hell of a lot cheaper than the I/O board, that I can guarantee you! But if you opt for this new method then you won't need the I/O board. As this new method is only a couple of weeks old there might be issues that I'm unaware of. Any bugs will be ironed though as the self-appointed project leader is excellent in that respect. The I/O board has a proven track record, and it might still be useful further down the line for something (2nd SD card slot, an input for tape decks for Speccy/C64/Amstrad tapes). It may still have a role to play if anyone starts to look more into the computer side of things (Sharp X68000, a beefier Windows 95 spec maybe). But as it stands I think the I/O board will go the way of the dinosaur.

 

You will definitely need the SDRAM expansion. Now that the 128MB version is official and the final design is in th hands of the resellers / board builders (as of two days ago) you might as well future-proof yourself and get this new version. Nobody will have this 128MB version in stock yet, all vendors are estimating 2-3 weeks as they're all buying these ram chips from the same two outlets.

 

Yeah I've been musing on the I/O board, had some discussions with Ricardo from Retroshop and it's around £300 for the ultimate Mister Kit fitted with DE-10 and 32MB memory. It looks lovely but I kind of feel I'm better of just getting the barebones DE-10 for now, and waiting on the 128MB board. I don't need anything other than USB ports, analogue out and a bob load of memory to run Neo Geo stuff. £150 best spend elsewhere....

 

[shiffy]

2 hours ago, watusi said:

 

Yeah I've been musing on the I/O board, had some discussions with Ricardo from Retroshop and it's around £300 for the ultimate Mister Kit fitted with DE-10 and 32MB memory. It looks lovely but I kind of feel I'm better of just getting the barebones DE-10 for now, and waiting on the 128MB board. I don't need anything other than USB ports, analogue out and a bob load of memory to run Neo Geo stuff. £150 best spend elsewhere....

 

 

I tend to agree with you and it was the route I went down. I never got the dedicated USB board, instead using a cheap USB hub from Amazon. I only got a cheap case months after I already had the DE-10. While it would be nice to have that case shown in the first post I felt that while various boards are being designed or changed , like the Blisster or LLcooljoy controller or USB boards, and the project as a whole being in a state of flux I would leave the case until things had settled down. There's money to be saved by scrimping on a few of what I consider to be the more luxurious items of the MiSTer package, and using the new analogue video method instead of the I/O board will save you a chunk of change.
 

[watusi]

Woohoo! It's arrived. Just the DE10-Nano though, not ordered any add-ons as yet.

 

I'm planning to wait till 128 boards are available, I'm guessing without the extra ram my options are limited?

[shiffy]

12 hours ago, watusi said:

Woohoo! It's arrived. Just the DE10-Nano though, not ordered any add-ons as yet.

 

I'm planning to wait till 128 boards are available, I'm guessing without the extra ram my options are limited?

If memory serves (and someone has just confirmed this on Discord for me), the PC Engine & Megadrive cores don't use the SDram at all, and I don't believe that any of the arcade cores do either. So, between those two consoles and the Arcade cores you should have enough to play around with and get set up while you wait for the 128 SDram.
 

I can't remember if the setup instructions are up above, but go here to get the Windows program to initially set up the SD card. Then grab the UPDATE.SH script from here. Put it on the SD card, open the scripts option on MiSTer (F12 on a keyboard), run the script and all the cores, pallettes, cheats, etc will be pulled from Github.

[watusi]

Cool, though I’ve just realised I need to get a us to uk plug adaptor so I can power the thing! 

 

Ill get the sd card prepped in the meantime. 

[shiffy]

The power adapter is duel voltage, so no need to worry about stepdowns. I found a shaving adapter in Sainbury's that seems to take any form of plug for a few quid. I'm sure you'll find one for a couple of quid.