Jump to content
rllmuk
Nick R

In-game Y-axis inversion setup in console shooters: useful or not?

Upright/inverted calibration sequences  

78 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

The genius gaming ideas thread had some posts were we talked about Halo's intuitive start-of-game y-axis inversion calibration:

 

 

That made me curious about how everyone here treats sequences like this. Do you find them helpful as a way to jump into the game ASAP and spend as little time as possible looking at options menus? Did you only find them useful a long time ago when you were first getting used to twin-stick FPSs?

 

This is the original, starting at about 5m15s. (Well almost the original; it's recorded from a 360, not an OG Xbox. I had to go through a surprising number of search results before I found a video of the mission that was non-Anniversary, non-MCC, non-PC!)

 

 

Halo Reach asks you to keep focused on a point while on a moving vehicle (at 4:45), and then pops up a message asking if you want to keep its detected setting or switch. It also tells you that you can change it from the pause menu - some might find that a bit more intrusive:

 

 

 

By the time of Halo 4, it had been streamlined to a simple requirement to look up (6:35 in this video):

 

 

 

I'm sure I've encountered these in other post-Halo first- and third-person shooters, though I struggle to think of specific examples now (anyone know if there's a list of games that do it?). Even though many shooters often begin with a simple task to look around, it's not always clear whether they actually make use of your actions there to alter any settings. (Sometimes when the game gets to its in-game looking around process, I intentionally slow down and mess it up, to experiment with how the game reacts - to see whether the mentor character will say extra dialogue like "it looks like you're having trouble with this mode, want to change?")

 

Personally I've never relied on them, in Halo or elsewhere, because the very first thing I do upon loading any game - before beginning the Story Mode - is go into the options menu and see what things the game will let me change. Even in things like GTA which throw you straight into the game without a traditional Title Screen/Options Menu, the pause menu is the first thing I look at upon gaining control.

 

In fact even outside of games, when it comes to software or hardware that begins with a friendly first-time setup wizard that goes through all options in a specific order, I usually immediately follow that by going into the options and checking how the settings are presented there. Because - like the power user that I am! ;) - I don't really trust the simplified, "friendly" way that these systems try to hide their internal workings!

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll set it in the options first because I have no idea if the game is going to include it before I've played it 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Lyrical Donut said:

Poll needs an 'I invert Y by default regardless of control scheme because who actually moves their head forward to look up' option.

 

:quote:

 

It's not about whether you use inverted or non-inverted - it's about what method the game uses to find out your preference!

 

 

(Personally I spent the first ten years of my FPS-playing life inverted, and then a decade ago successfully  forced myself to switch to non-inverted. :ph34r:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Nick R said:

It's not about whether you use inverted or non-inverted - it's about what method the game uses to find out your preference!

 

Yeah, that's fair enough. Accessibilty certainly isn't a bad thing.

 

3 minutes ago, Nick R said:

(Personally I spent the first ten years of my FPS-playing life inverted, and then a decade ago successfully  forced myself to switch to non-inverted. :ph34r:)

 

You're an absolute savage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can never tell whether "inverted" means up -> down or up -> up and have been burned in the past so I always wait until the game actually starts and see if it feels weird.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not get why a profile level setting is not done like it was on the 360, I miss that on my PS4. Every single game I play I go to options first now and change the camera, be it a shooter (or more likely in my case, an RPG).

 

The Halo setup was great, but so few games picked up on the idea, and it's not a profile option, so I don't rely on it being there.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A profile-level setting as on the 360 makes perfect sense, as everyone has a consistent preference for one setting or the other. 

 

It’s basically a generational thing. If you’re old enough that your first experience of 3D games was flight simulators (80s & early to mid 90s), you’re more likely to invert. If you’re younger than that then you probably grew up with FPS games and you’re likely to be more inclined toward the default setting. It’s as much an indicator of age as whether you put two spaces after a full stop when you’re typing. And given the age profile of this forum I’d bet there are far more inverters here than in the general gaming population. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always considered it an immersion/embodiment thing. I view the up/down motion of the right stick as controlling the vertical axis of my player. If I point it forward (up), the vertical axis of the player tilts forward (looks down). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, deKay said:

I don’t recall ever calibrating it. Or ever even seeing the option to do so.

 

Done well, you don't need to think about it - that's the point of the system in the original Halo; it observes your first attempt to track a target, infers your preference, confirms it by a second attempt and sets your default. This kind of approach - where you don't have to know there's an option to set and seek it out - was pretty radical at the time; I'd been researching usability testing around the time I went to GDCE in 2000 where MS did a bunch of presentations on the use of their usability labs in games. Halo being the poster child on the OG Xbox, released at the time.

 

The other theme I recall was that of games developers adopting OO design principles; Harvey Smith talking about how in the first Deus Ex they coded each door's behaviour from scratch, and now they had one universal door archetype...

 

16 minutes ago, Garwoofoo said:

It’s basically a generational thing. If you’re old enough that your first experience of 3D games was flight simulators (80s & early to mid 90s), you’re more likely to invert. If you’re younger than that then you probably grew up with FPS games and you’re likely to be more inclined toward the default setting.

 

This - except I don't know what my preferences are; I've been playing games so long I actually tend to code-switch in my head, and adapt to the game's default settings. I have a vague feeling that I might have changed the preference in some recent game, but it's not common for me to do that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know I'm straying from the topic but I wish more games allowed you to invert both x and y. That was always my preference until a few years ago where I was playing something that didn't allow invert x and I forced myself to get used to it, so my default now is to invert y only. But that makes no intuitive sense to me - I always think of it as camera controls, so you move the back of the camera (or your character's head in first person) in the opposite direction to where you want to look.

 

I realise this makes me some sort of deviant, and the fact that invert x isn't a standard option proves it, but it makes sense to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Darren said:

 

 

I realise this makes me some sort of deviant, and the fact that invert x isn't a standard option proves it, but it makes sense to me.

 

In third person view games (Mario Odyssey, Assassin's Creed, Yooka Laylee, Breath of the Wild) I "steer" with the right stick rather than the left.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Garwoofoo said:

A profile-level setting as on the 360 makes perfect sense, as everyone has a consistent preference for one setting or the other. 

 

It’s basically a generational thing. If you’re old enough that your first experience of 3D games was flight simulators (80s & early to mid 90s), you’re more likely to invert. If you’re younger than that then you probably grew up with FPS games and you’re likely to be more inclined toward the default setting. It’s as much an indicator of age as whether you put two spaces after a full stop when you’re typing. And given the age profile of this forum I’d bet there are far more inverters here than in the general gaming population. 

 

100% agree with this. I'm 47, my boys are 13 and 15. They think I'm an idiot for inverting and all their mates think the same. But I grew up playing games inverted, so thats the way I still play as it naturally makes sense to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got a 12 year old Daughter and an 8 year old son, and they have become accustomed to inverting the Y-axis, just because I taught them that it was the correct way.

 

I'm hoping they pass it down to their children, and my legacy will live on.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Nick R said:

(Personally I spent the first ten years of my FPS-playing life inverted, and then a decade ago successfully  forced myself to switch to non-inverted. :ph34r:)

 

This is basically modern self-cucking guys. It's disgusting and I never want to hear about it again.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of my mates did that. He used to be normal, and invert like me, then he changed to the wrong way.

 

I wonder whatever happened to him........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Nick R said:

(Personally I spent the first ten years of my FPS-playing life inverted, and then a decade ago successfully  forced myself to switch to non-inverted. :ph34r:)

 

giphy.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't be too sure it can't happen to you guys, so proud of your inversions. I used to be just like you, brought up on flight simulators and elite on old joysticks, it was natural that pulling back made the nose go up and pushing forward made it go back down. I too would scoff and laugh and be disgusted by those that played without inversion, what are you controlling (I would mock) the player's eyes?

 

And then a year or so ago I got a PC, and something strange happened inside my brain. I couldn't go inverted anymore. As much as I wanted to, the mouse just wouldn't let me work like that. I scoffed at myself and went back to games I'd happily played on pads for years inverted, had argued with my kids about (Minecraft) because of having to switch between schemes when handing over the controller. And.... I'm ashamed to say it.... that too was now broken. I was no longer an inverter, I was a normal. :o 

 

My only hope now is that VR breaks me back... perhaps it may.

 

Let that be a lesson to you though, inversion may not last forever, embrace it... while you still can.:blah:

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, deKay said:

 

In third person view games (Mario Odyssey, Assassin's Creed, Yooka Laylee, Breath of the Wild) I "steer" with the right stick rather than the left.

 

This right here is what makes the Steam controller the worst controller ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, watusi said:

I really missed the profile level invert option on the 360 when I got a Xbox One. It was super!

 

17 hours ago, Vorgot said:

I do not get why a profile level setting is not done like it was on the 360, I miss that on my PS4. Every single game I play I go to options first now and change the camera, be it a shooter (or more likely in my case, an RPG).

 

The Halo setup was great, but so few games picked up on the idea, and it's not a profile option, so I don't rely on it being there.

 

7 hours ago, Garwoofoo said:

A profile-level setting as on the 360 makes perfect sense, as everyone has a consistent preference for one setting or the other. 

 

It’s basically a generational thing. If you’re old enough that your first experience of 3D games was flight simulators (80s & early to mid 90s), you’re more likely to invert. If you’re younger than that then you probably grew up with FPS games and you’re likely to be more inclined toward the default setting. It’s as much an indicator of age as whether you put two spaces after a full stop when you’re typing. And given the age profile of this forum I’d bet there are far more inverters here than in the general gaming population. 

The Xbox One has an Accessories App which lets you do just that as well as changing sticks and remapping buttons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Darren said:

I know I'm straying from the topic but I wish more games allowed you to invert both x and y. That was always my preference until a few years ago where I was playing something that didn't allow invert x and I forced myself to get used to it, so my default now is to invert y only. But that makes no intuitive sense to me - I always think of it as camera controls, so you move the back of the camera (or your character's head in first person) in the opposite direction to where you want to look.

 

I realise this makes me some sort of deviant, and the fact that invert x isn't a standard option proves it, but it makes sense to me.

 

Agree with this. Invert x and y where possible. I think it came from years of playing day of defeat on the pc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Garwoofoo said:

  It’s as much an indicator of age as whether you put two spaces after a full stop when you’re typing. And given the age profile of this forum I’d bet there are far more inverters here than in the general gaming population. 

Crikey. I invert (PC FPS was my first experience if it with doom/quake etc). I also double space after full stops. Am I old then? Is it too much of a hassle for young uns to press space bar twice?

 

:unsure:

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, you're old.

 

(The "two spaces after a full stop" thing comes from the days of manual typewriters, when letters were the same width and it helped to space words out a bit.  People who still do it typically either learned to type on a manual typewriter or were taught by someone who did. Pretty much no-one under the age of 40 does it).

 

I'm also a double-space inverter if it makes you feel better :unsure:  In fact I even used to play FPS games with swapped sticks - right stick to move, left stick to look - entirely thanks to Goldeneye.  Lots of games used to offer the option, virtually none these days do.  It took me ages to wean myself off that one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

4 hours ago, Danster said:

Don't be too sure it can't happen to you guys, so proud of your inversions. I used to be just like you, brought up on flight simulators and elite on old joysticks, it was natural that pulling back made the nose go up and pushing forward made it go back down. I too would scoff and laugh and be disgusted by those that played without inversion, what are you controlling (I would mock) the player's eyes?

 

And then a year or so ago I got a PC, and something strange happened inside my brain. I couldn't go inverted anymore. As much as I wanted to, the mouse just wouldn't let me work like that. I scoffed at myself and went back to games I'd happily played on pads for years inverted, had argued with my kids about (Minecraft) because of having to switch between schemes when handing over the controller. And.... I'm ashamed to say it.... that too was now broken. I was no longer an inverter, I was a normal. :o 

 

My only hope now is that VR breaks me back... perhaps it may.

 

Let that be a lesson to you though, inversion may not last forever, embrace it... while you still can.:blah:

 

:lol:

 

The reason I intentionally switched from inverted to non-inverted/upright was because even though inverted always seemed intuitive (through N64, Dreamcast, and twin-stick FPSs), my ability to make diagonal motions and follow targets on curved/spiralling paths was never as accurate and instinctive as I thought it should be. I knew that when I was going to start playing online those fractions of a second would be a disadvantage for online multiplayer, so I decided to see if I could get used to upright aiming.

 

It took a while for me to get used to it on the Xbox with right-thumbstick aiming - then the next time I went back to N64 GoldenEye I had to learn to do it all over again with left-thumb aiming! It was worth learning though - it solved the problem I had with those diagonal/curved aiming motions.

 

As for PC FPSs: no, I've never used inverted look with mouse controls in an FPS. Flight sims, yes, but not FPSs!

 

8 hours ago, Darren said:

I know I'm straying from the topic but I wish more games allowed you to invert both x and y. That was always my preference until a few years ago where I was playing something that didn't allow invert x and I forced myself to get used to it, so my default now is to invert y only. But that makes no intuitive sense to me - I always think of it as camera controls, so you move the back of the camera (or your character's head in first person) in the opposite direction to where you want to look.

 

I realise this makes me some sort of deviant, and the fact that invert x isn't a standard option proves it, but it makes sense to me.

 

X-axis inversion in third-person games is an odd one. Over the years I've swapped many times between games that treat a directional press in one of two different ways:

  1. which direction you want to look (i.e. pressing left makes the camera orbit from behind your character's back to their right shoulder, giving you a better view of scenery on their left).
  2. which direction you want to move the camera (i.e. pressing left makes the camera orbit from behind your character's back to their left shoulder, giving you  a better look at scenery to their right).

The first games I played where the camera could be manually orbited round the player used the Saturn and PlayStation's L and R bumpers instead of a stick. (I could be misremembering, but I think NiGHTS and Burning Rangers might even have had the L/R camera actions the opposite way round despite being related engines from the same developer.) One of Mario 64's camera modes used the C-buttons to pivot round Mario in 90 degree increments, but I can't remember which way round it behaved.

 

So for a long time I didn't really have many problems swapping between games that treated it differently. But as I played more and more third-person shooters (e.g. Splinter Cell), it made more sense to have the third-person directional controls match up to those when in first-person scoped aiming mode. So over the years I've become more and more settled on x-axis mode 1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm over 40 and if I ever ascend to a position of power in the government of this country I will round up every single inverter and double spacer in this nation and send them to conversion camps. If violence has to be used, then so be it. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.