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Football Thread 2019/2020


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5 hours ago, Plissken said:

David Silva gets a handshake and a hug from every City player and official as he goes off in the 84th minute.

 

He's been such a lovely player to watch.


Dirty little fucker, mind.

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3 hours ago, bradigor said:

 

Eh? Man City are in via 2nd place anyway, so surely it doesn't matter. 

 

Fuck, yes, I cocked up.

 

I was thinking of earlier in the week when the bad result for 4th place was Chelsea winning yet finishing 5th, and then ruled that out because now they're fourth without thinking things through properly.

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I thought Moyes had done a bit better than this, could say the back half of a season has more pressure on it but it’s not screaming ‘give him the job’

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Naysonymous said:

Maybe they’ll take a punt on Eddie Howe as Moyes only signed an 18 month contract meaning he’ll be cheap to replace. 

 

That would be a very West Ham move, replacing Moyes with a bloke who got his team relegated.

 

Interesting story from The Athletic, a group action from players suing over their performance data - it's sort of worded to me that the players involved are not from the top of the tree and they're trying to gather some support for it. Even so the concept is interesting.

 

Spoiler

The English football season may be drawing to a close but behind the scenes, work is just getting started on a potentially groundbreaking lawsuit that could have major ramifications for the game.

It can be revealed by The Athletic that hundreds of players in the Premier League, EFL, National League and Scottish Premiership are taking legal action over the use of their performance and tracking data. If successful, the claim is expected to be worth hundreds of millions of pounds.

More than 400 current and former players have signed up to pursue gaming, betting and data-processing companies who utilise their personal statistics without consent or compensation.

They aim to recover lost income stretching back six years (as per the statute of limitations in UK law) and secure payouts potentially running into tens of thousands of pounds per person, depending on the level a player has competed at and the amount of exposure they have attained. The challenge is not targeting clubs, even if they have handled players’ data. The intention is to educate them on how best to treat it in the future, rather than seek to bring them into this action.

Spearheading the operation — coined Project Red Card — is the experienced manager Russell Slade, alongside a team of data specialists and lawyers, led by the respected UK firm Freeths. They claim the statistics are being used unlawfully and anticipate a majority of male and female footballers in Britain will join the effort. Their ambition is to achieve initial settlements in 2021.

The case will likely rest on who owns the data and Project Red Card firmly assert that to be the individuals, rather than the companies utilising it in industries that are proliferating as a result.

It is a landscape that has exploded in recent times as technological advances allow virtually any activity a squad and its members do in training and match-day environments to be monitored.

There is nothing to suggest the players are unhappy with their statistics being accessed and capitalised on in a lawful way, rather that nobody requested their permission in accordance with the law or offered remuneration for something that would appear to carry significant value.

Image rights deals have been commonplace since the 1990s but most contracts do not make mention of performance and tracking data, and that has seemingly enabled firms to benefit.

Many will assume the subject is indeed covered by image rights, though Slade and his colleagues argue otherwise. They are confident their lawsuit will succeed — especially in the new age of privacy and regulations about the processing of personal data — and can have an enormous impact on the world of football and beyond.

“To become a professional footballer starts with a journey pursued mostly at a very young age,” former Cardiff City and Leyton Orient boss Slade tells The Athletic. “The longevity of that journey requires two important ingredients: sacrifice and fortune. A small number of players have long, successful club and international careers. Conversely, there are many careers cut short through injury and consistency of performance.

“Astonishingly, the average duration of a player’s career is around just eight years. A long career lasting double that time still only takes a player to the age of 34, 35. Clearly, there is a lot of life left after football and only a privileged few stay in the game. There is an uneven spread of money across the game but more importantly, a lot of money is lost outside the game.

“I would also like to encourage the top 10 per cent of our football player family to support this case and their fellow professionals moving forward.”

 

 

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Roy Hodgson calls out Zaha for his half-arsed efforts post-lockdown:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53546556 

 

"It's obviously affected him because his form in the last few weeks has really been quite poor considering what he is capable of doing," Hodgson said.

"It's a dilemma for the club and a dilemma for him if he is so set on leaving. If he feels he just does not want to be with us any more, that would be sad.

"We still like him very much; we can't make him like us. This is a situation that only he and the club can sort out. I don't have an answer."

 

Hodgson (aside from stupid red cards etc.) always shields his players, this is incredibly unusual, suggests (what a lot of Palace fans have suspected) that Zaha has been having a sulk this season as we refused to sell for below our valuation.

 

His performances all through this year have been sub-par and it's undoubtedly caused issues (given he's our main creative outlet), he's almost certainly out the door this transfer window and it'll be a sad end to his tenure with us.

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1 hour ago, Gotters said:

 

That would be a very West Ham move, replacing Moyes with a bloke who got his team relegated.

 

Interesting story from The Athletic, a group action from players suing over their performance data - it's sort of worded to me that the players involved are not from the top of the tree and they're trying to gather some support for it. Even so the concept is interesting.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The English football season may be drawing to a close but behind the scenes, work is just getting started on a potentially groundbreaking lawsuit that could have major ramifications for the game.

It can be revealed by The Athletic that hundreds of players in the Premier League, EFL, National League and Scottish Premiership are taking legal action over the use of their performance and tracking data. If successful, the claim is expected to be worth hundreds of millions of pounds.

More than 400 current and former players have signed up to pursue gaming, betting and data-processing companies who utilise their personal statistics without consent or compensation.

They aim to recover lost income stretching back six years (as per the statute of limitations in UK law) and secure payouts potentially running into tens of thousands of pounds per person, depending on the level a player has competed at and the amount of exposure they have attained. The challenge is not targeting clubs, even if they have handled players’ data. The intention is to educate them on how best to treat it in the future, rather than seek to bring them into this action.

Spearheading the operation — coined Project Red Card — is the experienced manager Russell Slade, alongside a team of data specialists and lawyers, led by the respected UK firm Freeths. They claim the statistics are being used unlawfully and anticipate a majority of male and female footballers in Britain will join the effort. Their ambition is to achieve initial settlements in 2021.

The case will likely rest on who owns the data and Project Red Card firmly assert that to be the individuals, rather than the companies utilising it in industries that are proliferating as a result.

It is a landscape that has exploded in recent times as technological advances allow virtually any activity a squad and its members do in training and match-day environments to be monitored.

There is nothing to suggest the players are unhappy with their statistics being accessed and capitalised on in a lawful way, rather that nobody requested their permission in accordance with the law or offered remuneration for something that would appear to carry significant value.

Image rights deals have been commonplace since the 1990s but most contracts do not make mention of performance and tracking data, and that has seemingly enabled firms to benefit.

Many will assume the subject is indeed covered by image rights, though Slade and his colleagues argue otherwise. They are confident their lawsuit will succeed — especially in the new age of privacy and regulations about the processing of personal data — and can have an enormous impact on the world of football and beyond.

“To become a professional footballer starts with a journey pursued mostly at a very young age,” former Cardiff City and Leyton Orient boss Slade tells The Athletic. “The longevity of that journey requires two important ingredients: sacrifice and fortune. A small number of players have long, successful club and international careers. Conversely, there are many careers cut short through injury and consistency of performance.

“Astonishingly, the average duration of a player’s career is around just eight years. A long career lasting double that time still only takes a player to the age of 34, 35. Clearly, there is a lot of life left after football and only a privileged few stay in the game. There is an uneven spread of money across the game but more importantly, a lot of money is lost outside the game.

“I would also like to encourage the top 10 per cent of our football player family to support this case and their fellow professionals moving forward.”

 

 

 

How far does that go though?

 

Will the next Fifa have to rate everyone 70 and call them "Ian Football" so they can't be identified?

 

Can I not say Harry Kane scored 20 goals?

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2 hours ago, Gotters said:

I thought Moyes had done a bit better than this, could say the back half of a season has more pressure on it but it’s not screaming ‘give him the job’

 

 

A bit of messing around on Statsbunker says West ham had 12 points after the first 7 games but only picked up 7 from the next 12. I'm not sure if Moyes is the right choice for West Ham going forward but I don't think theres much doubt that Pellegrinis time was up and if he had stayed then West Ham were going down.

 

 

I'm not sure if they can do much better than Moyes to be honest. It seems like such a dysfunctional club that its hard to see why a manager on an upward curve would take the job on. 

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1 hour ago, Dudley said:

 

How far does that go though?

 

Will the next Fifa have to rate everyone 70 and call them "Ian Football" so they can't be identified?

 

Can I not say Harry Kane scored 20 goals?


They'll probably push for some kind of fee like a barbers needs a license to play music on the premises.  They’ll argue that stats companies are profiting from their labour, stats companies will argue that you can’t copyright counting.  As it feels like a massive cash grab to me, I kinda hope the players get laughed out of court.  

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1 hour ago, Dudley said:

 

How far does that go though?

 

Will the next Fifa have to rate everyone 70 and call them "Ian Football" so they can't be identified?

 

Can I not say Harry Kane scored 20 goals?


i’m guessing here but I suspect some lawyer realised that detailed player performance data was being monetised by the likes of Opta via the clubs and other data analytic agencies and the player contracts had no clauses or stipulations covering this specifically.

 

it’s an interesting legal question, players havent clicked a terms of service agreement like we do on phone apps or software, but are asked to wear those vest things that track everything they do in training and matchday - who legally owns that data and the right to profit from it ?

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Now we know the relegated teams, would you buy any of their players to go straight into your starting XI? 

 

Possibly Nathan Ake or Ismaila Sarr/Cantwell for Leicester. Sarr more on potential than on any consistency. 

 

 

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Wouldn't surprise me to see Burnley go after Deeney.  We tried before when in the Championship.

 

There are good players at Bournemouth, but none of them really fit.  (We need a taller midfielder, which rules out David Brooks and I can't remember who their right back is.)

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I'd very publicly court Tim Krul and promise him the number 1 jersey to tempt him join. Then immediately on arrival force him to train with the kids or join the first team at the end of each session for a spirited game of red arse for the rest of his career in an act of unbelievable pettiness.

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15 minutes ago, Stopharage said:

Now we know the relegated teams, would you buy any of their players to go straight into your starting XI? 

 

Possibly Nathan Ake or Ismaila Sarr/Cantwell for Leicester. Sarr more on potential than on any consistency. 

 

 

 

Starting? No. 

However Jamal Lewis is someone I'd like Liverpool to buy to learn from and eventually replace Andy Robertson, whilst being able to deputise over the next 3-4 seasons. 

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1 minute ago, Art Vandelay said:

I'd very publicly court Tim Krul and promise him the number 1 jersey to tempt him join. Then immediately on arrival force him to train with the kids for the rest of his career in an act of unbelievable pettiness.

 

Don't be so cruel.

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I've just realised that we pulled Tom Heaton from Bristol City after they had been relegated and Nick Pope and Johan Berg Gudmundsson from Charlton after they went down.*

 

*looks at Norwich, Bournemouth and Watford squad lists more closely*

 

 

 

*Total fees paid - £2.5m.

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4 hours ago, skadupuk said:

Roy Hodgson calls out Zaha for his half-arsed efforts post-lockdown:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53546556 

 

"It's obviously affected him because his form in the last few weeks has really been quite poor considering what he is capable of doing," Hodgson said.

"It's a dilemma for the club and a dilemma for him if he is so set on leaving. If he feels he just does not want to be with us any more, that would be sad.

"We still like him very much; we can't make him like us. This is a situation that only he and the club can sort out. I don't have an answer."

 

Hodgson (aside from stupid red cards etc.) always shields his players, this is incredibly unusual, suggests (what a lot of Palace fans have suspected) that Zaha has been having a sulk this season as we refused to sell for below our valuation.

 

His performances all through this year have been sub-par and it's undoubtedly caused issues (given he's our main creative outlet), he's almost certainly out the door this transfer window and it'll be a sad end to his tenure with us.


It would be huge for Palace if he left but would they let him go for less than their valuation? I think there’s more value in retaining him than having a load of cash but if he’s being disruptive then maybe it would be best to at least get some sort of fee out of him.

 

Is Hodgson leaving? Are they trying to get Dyche to replace him?

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1 hour ago, Stopharage said:

Now we know the relegated teams, would you buy any of their players to go straight into your starting XI? 

 

Possibly Nathan Ake or Ismaila Sarr/Cantwell for Leicester. Sarr more on potential than on any consistency. 

 

 

 

Ake has been linked with one of Chelsea/Arsenal/Man U hasn't he?

 

Cantwell has potential, as does Sarr. I can't see they'd be regulars at the moment though, so perhaps a season in the Championship and regular, competitive football might be good for their development.

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I've always thought Ake is a bit overrated. He seems to go walkabout a lot and maraud forward with the ball at his feet. Would probably suit a City where he's not really expected to defend much, or somewhere he could play in a three and let the other two get stuck in. Think you'd already need a good defence for him to improve you, so that rules Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd out.

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40 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

I've always thought Ake is a bit overrated. He seems to go walkabout a lot and maraud forward with the ball at his feet. Would probably suit a City where he's not really expected to defend much, or somewhere he could play in a three and let the other two get stuck in. Think you'd already need a good defence for him to improve you, so that rules Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd out.

 

That was said about Stones and that hasn't worked out well for him - and this season has shown that they actually do need some proper defenders.

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2 hours ago, Gabe said:

 

Ake has been linked with one of Chelsea/Arsenal/Man U hasn't he?

 

 

Think the set of rumours about him I saw was that he's off to either Chelsea or Man City. 

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5 hours ago, Gotters said:

it’s an interesting legal question, players havent clicked a terms of service agreement like we do on phone apps or software, but are asked to wear those vest things that track everything they do in training and matchday - who legally owns that data and the right to profit from it ?

Surely it's the clubs who own that data, and if they are participating in a competion it's the owner of that competition who owns the data accrued within that game?

I mean there's rules on having to do x amount of press (at the end of the game, one player and the manager has to do an interview, and press conference after the game, as it's written into the rules of the competition that all clubs signed into), is it not the same as with stats?

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The players/manager will have a contractual obligation to do media duties.  You could watch a football match on TV tomorrow and count the number of passes, you don't need to sign anything to enable you to do that. I can't see how it holds up in court. 

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2 hours ago, spork said:

 

Think the set of rumours about him I saw was that he's off to either Chelsea or Man City. 

 

Chelsea have first refusal as part of the deal that took him there in the first place.

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6 hours ago, Stopharage said:

Now we know the relegated teams, would you buy any of their players to go straight into your starting XI? 

 

Possibly Nathan Ake or Ismaila Sarr/Cantwell for Leicester. Sarr more on potential than on any consistency. 

 

 

 

Maybe that Harry Wilson lad from Bournemouth. As a squad player not starter.

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@Azrael Harry Wilson is on loan from Liverpool though.

 

@Naysonymous The stats go a lot deeper than passes though and are not things you could measure without equipment (i.e. heat maps, distance covered etc) and you obviously wouldn't be able to get any training data either. Not that I think the case has a great deal of merit, mind, but it isn't something anybody could easily do.

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I was talking hypothetically, I don't think there is anything which could legally stop a member of the public with a bit of coding know how and a few TV's from generating heat maps or anything like that.  I can't see how players can claim ownership of data which they didn't generate. If it is something like getting a fee just because they think they can have one then I really hope they don't win.

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