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Football Thread 2019/2020

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2 hours ago, Calashnikov said:

Man U fans popping boners at Man City getting goals while Liverpool coast the league. What the fuck happened.


I totally always think this, it’s the beauty of football. Imagine telling Utd fans this is where they’d be now when Fergie retired. 

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I think Man U could be a force next year if Pogba stays and starts to put in some effort, because they have some exciting strikers and Fernandes is clearly a player.

 

Still, I don't care about that right now, I'm just enjoying today!

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Congratulations Liverpool. Comfortably the best team in the country, well deserved.

 

Nothing wrong with being pleased for another club to do well, especially if they try and play football the right way. I never had an issue with respecting Man Utd under Fergie, City under Pep, Arsenal under Wenger and even Chelsea under Mourinho (he's not always played dull, uninspiring defence football). 

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23 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I think Man U could be a force next year if Pogba stays and starts to put in some effort, because they have some exciting strikers and Fernandes is clearly a player.

 

Still, I don't care about that right now, I'm just enjoying today!


Nope, OGS isn’t fit to clean Klopp’s tactics whiteboard.

 

As long as Klopp and Pep are in the prem there will be a top 2 and the rest.

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3 minutes ago, dizogg said:


Nope, OGS isn’t fit to clean Klopp’s tactics whiteboard.

 

As long as Klopp and Pep are in the prem there will be a top 2 and the rest.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, I still think Liverpool and City are a distance above everybody else, but I can see Man U coming out of that pack of 3 or 4 teams (Tottenham, Chelsea, Man U and perhaps Leicester again) to be a bit closer next season.

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City just need a defence and it'll be them and Liverpool again next season. 

 

Congrats to Liverpool fans. 

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Now they've finally won it, can we start doing that thing people did when Fergie was at Utd and remark how none of their fans are from or have any connection to Liverpool? 

You know, "they'll be partying in the streets of Surrey tonight!"

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2 hours ago, neoELITE said:

Now they've finally won it, can we start doing that thing people did when Fergie was at Utd and remark how none of their fans are from or have any connection to Liverpool? 

You know, "they'll be partying in the streets of Surrey tonight!"


no, because that’s clearly not true.
 

Most Liverpool fans I know have some connection to Merseyside, or have been fans since the 80s...

 

 

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Are Liverpool the quickest team to win the league (by Games) and also the slowest (by Date)

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1 minute ago, Ork1927 said:

Are Liverpool the quickest team to win the league (by Games) and also the slowest (by Date)


Yes.

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6 minutes ago, SeanR said:


no, because that’s clearly not true.
 

Most Liverpool fans I know have some connection to Merseyside, or have been fans since the 80s...

 

 


It’s all bullshit anyway. Ignores that the reason why your club is a Prem club is that it’s global brand and only there because of support around the world. The belief that the closer you are born to a stadium correlates directly to how pure a fan you are is only one step away from the belief system of those ‘football lads’ idiots who think that they own the terraces and have a right to football because they are white and born in England.

 

The United thing is a long worn joke from us who grew up in the playgrounds of the 90s who suffered the jibes of kids who never really liked football or could name the United starting eleven but who would celebrate every triumph emphatically. 
 

No matter where you’re living or were born. From Anfield to Bangkok, if you’re a true red this title means as much to you as it does for any other supporter. 

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9 minutes ago, Oh Danny Boy said:

 

No matter where you’re living or were born. From Anfield to Bangkok, if you’re a true red this title means as much to you as it does for any other supporter. 


This isn’t true though. I don’t support Liverpool, I support a much less successful side but when you do achieve something it’s about more than football. It is different if you are local. For one you have the local connection, the club are a focal point for the community, most people you know support the same team, it’s around you all the time. It’s about civic pride and being a part of something that originated from your area. I think that the best way to explain it is that the club is a part of you, a part of your identity, a part of your family’s identity for generations. It’s one of the few remaining aspects of localised working class culture that is left. 

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Being born next to the ground doesn’t make you a better fan, that’s the wrong argument. The idea is that your club represents your community and you support them because that’s the area you’re from. If you have always supported Liverpool then their success in theory means as much to you if you live in Nigeria or you had a water birth in the Mersey and your midwife was Cilla Black. There’s a difference though between football being a global game and choosing to support Man Utd in the 90s because they were good. It’s an idealist argument anyway I suppose. It’s always happened to a certain degree, which is why everyone’s Dad supports Liverpool.

 

I think the other way to look at it is the step in the opposite direction from these hypothetical football lads is a game removed from the supporters. One where we all just follow a big corporate franchise we like the look of. We’re pretty much there already in some ways.

 

EDIT: AfromB has said it better.

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45 minutes ago, SeanR said:


no, because that’s clearly not true.
 

Most Liverpool fans I know have some connection to Merseyside, or have been fans since the 80s...

 

 

 

I wouldn't say it's clear at all.

 

I've can only think of one Liverpool fan I've met with a connection to the city, and dozens without.  Being a fan since the 80s isn't really too impressive.

 

Anyway, congratulations to Liverpool, especially to those fans with a connection to the club.

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31 minutes ago, Oh Danny Boy said:


It’s all bullshit anyway. Ignores that the reason why your club is a Prem club is that it’s global brand and only there because of support around the world. The belief that the closer you are born to a stadium correlates directly to how pure a fan you are is only one step away from the belief system of those ‘football lads’ idiots who think that they own the terraces and have a right to football because they are white and born in England.

 

The United thing is a long worn joke from us who grew up in the playgrounds of the 90s who suffered the jibes of kids who never really liked football or could name the United starting eleven but who would celebrate every triumph emphatically. 
 

No matter where you’re living or were born. From Anfield to Bangkok, if you’re a true red this title means as much to you as it does for any other supporter. 

 

This is way off the mark, and I've said it before, but the idea that a supporter of an English club in Bangkok has the same connection and success has the same meaning to them as a fan with multiple generations of family support and connection to a club is ridiculous.  Nothing wrong with them choosing their fave English club to follow, but there is no way it means the same.

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7 minutes ago, AfromB said:


This isn’t true though. I don’t support Liverpool, I support a much less successful side but when you do achieve something it’s about more than football. It is different if you are local. For one you have the local connection, the club are a focal point for the community, most people you know support the same team, it’s around you all the time. It’s about civic pride and being a part of something that originated from your area. I think that the best way to explain it is that the club is a part of you, a part of your identity, a part of your family’s identity for generations. It’s one of the few remaining aspects of localised working class culture that is left. 

 

But that type of view also largely comes from a time where you would live and work in the same place. These days there's much more social mobility and that link has weakened somewhat (though it is undoubtedly still true for a lot of clubs).

 

2 minutes ago, dr_manhattan^ said:

 

I wouldn't say it's clear at all.

 

I've can only think of one Liverpool fan I've met with a connection to the city, and dozens without.  Being a fan since the 80s isn't really too impressive.

 

Anyway, congratulations to Liverpool, especially to those fans with a connection to the club.

 

Does any of it ultimately really matter? If you're an Everton fan the city is going to be full of stuff you'll hate, so just having a connection with Liverpool isn't in itself a factor there.

 

And isn't this an example of how football can bring all types of people together, from all over the worlds and all different backgrounds? I'd definitely agree that having a direct connection with the club/city means that winning it is going to have a more day-to-day impact on your life than if you lived halfway around the world, but a fan is a fan is a fan. We are love the sport, isn't that the main thing?

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It doesn't matter until people with no connection to their clubs cheapen your own by pretending it's the same.

 

Of course it doesn't matter, it's just mildly insulting.

 

The support of a red team from someone in another continent is cheap and easily won.  The support of someone with a deep connection to the community over generations is different and it doesn't just effect smaller clubs:

 

 

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One last point. The communal aspect of attending games regularly in person reinforces these feelings of connection with the club, the area and other fans. 

 

I’m not here to pass judgment on fans in far away places. I’m just saying that it doesn’t and can’t feel the same. 

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26 minutes ago, dr_manhattan^ said:

 

This is way off the mark, and I've said it before, but the idea that a supporter of an English club in Bangkok has the same connection and success has the same meaning to them as a fan with multiple generations of family support and connection to a club is ridiculous.  Nothing wrong with them choosing their fave English club to follow, but there is no way it means the same.

 

I agree with you that it's different, but I wouldn't say the emotional connection would automatically be less if ones lives further away.  I mean, I have met working class guys from Asia who having to regularly wake up in the middle of the night to catch some games and had to save for years to make it to one game to see their team once in their lifetime.  Televised games have be around for long enough for it to be a generational thing too.  It's not the same as it was I wouldn't assume it means less for them on a personal level.

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5 minutes ago, Timbuktu said:

 

 

I agree with you that it's different, but I wouldn't say the emotional connection would automatically be less if ones lives further away.  I mean, I have met working class guys from Asia who having to regularly wake up in the middle of the night to catch some games and had to save for years to make it to one game to see their team once in their lifetime.  Televised games have be around for long enough for it to be a generational thing too.  It's not the same as it was I wouldn't assume it means less for them on a personal level.

Yes I take your point there.

 

I can't understand it really, but fair enough.

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32 minutes ago, dr_manhattan^ said:

It doesn't matter until people with no connection to their clubs cheapen your own by pretending it's the same.

 

Of course it doesn't matter, it's just mildly insulting.

 

The support of a red team from someone in another continent is cheap and easily won.  The support of someone with a deep connection to the community over generations is different and it doesn't just effect smaller clubs:

 

Out of interest, do you place some kind of minimum timestamp on how long you have to have a 'connection' (on whatever metric you want to judge that) before it doesn't cheapen things and make you a 'lesser' fan (because that's what you're almost saying there)? A year? 10 years? Generations of family?

 

Who knew football was so tribal even amongst fans of the same club...

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1 minute ago, Gabe said:

 

Out of interest, do you place some kind of minimum timestamp on how long you have to have a 'connection' (on whatever metric you want to judge that) before it doesn't cheapen things and make you a 'lesser' fan (because that's what you're almost saying there)? A year? 10 years? Generations of family?

 

Who knew football was so tribal even amongst fans of the same club...

 

No of course I don't, that's a ridiculous thing to ask.

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Just now, dr_manhattan^ said:

 

No of course I don't, that's a ridiculous thing to ask.

 

How is that ridiculous? I'm not putting words in your mouth here, you have made a few posts saying success can't mean the same to those without a connection to the club - and going so far as to say "...cheapen your own by pretending it's the same." So you must have some kind of measure of what constitutes "a connection", else how could you possibly make such a statement?

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1 minute ago, Gabe said:

 

How is that ridiculous? I'm not putting words in your mouth here, you have made a few posts saying success can't mean the same to those without a connection to the club - and going so far as to say "...cheapen your own by pretending it's the same." So you must have some kind of measure of what constitutes "a connection", else how could you possibly make such a statement?

It's silly to think I'd have a cut off point, but you know it when you see it.  Clearly a Liverpool fan with family and ties to the city has more of a connection than someone who buys a Liverpool top every three years and watches them on Sky, but has no stake in Liverpool as a city.

 

If you don't agree then fair enough, I have no ill will to these people, but there is a difference, and I accept it might not be clear to see.

 

@Oh Danny Boy suggesting holding this view is one step away from a national front membership can fuck off with that opinion though.

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it's always a tricky one and needs more than the odd line or 2 drive by posting to cover it properly - but if you are somebody who pays to watch football regularly, which is a big commitment of time, travel cost on top etc, it is somewhat galling to be told by somebody who follows the game on an illegal stream that they, or somebody who switched allegiance from a blue to a red team a couple of years ago in Singapore, are just as important and the same level of fan that you are.

 

we're seeing now what local-ish fans bring to the sport, a video wall showing a zoom call isn't the same thing. 

 

I want to be happy for Liverpool, but I just think they are the team its impossible for me to celebrate their success, no matter how well managed, how good the squad, how scientific and analytic the signings have been. Its exactly the sort of thing I should appreciate but I just can't. Sorry (not sorry)

 

#unbearables

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5 minutes ago, dr_manhattan^ said:

It's silly to think I'd have a cut off point, but you know it when you see it.  Clearly a Liverpool fan with family and ties to the city has more of a connection than someone who buys a Liverpool top every three years and watches them on Sky, but has no stake in Liverpool as a city.

 

If you don't agree then fair enough, I have no ill will to these people, but there is a difference, and I accept it might not be clear to see.

 

@Oh Danny Boy suggesting holding this view is one step away from a national front membership can fuck off with that opinion though.

 

On the bolded - yes, that's a rather silly link to make.

 

And I actually do agree with you to an extent on the other stuff - there's an intangible something, a sense of belonging that does exist with proximity. But I don't think somebody in Hong Kong celebrating a win can cheapen anybody else's feelings - after all, how 'winning' (be it a match, a trophy - or even the second half of a game where you were battered in the first) feels how it feels - and that's going to be different to every single fan.

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I mean even a teenage model who marries an old rich guy for his money can come to love him eventually, it's just the reason she wanted him in the first place which can always be questioned.  

I'm not begrudging of Liverpool's title at all,  they are a wonderful team full of likeable players who play entertaining football.  I just think the supporting a successful team because they are successful and sticking with them through thick and thick is a different kind of connection being from the area and being a part of the city.   

Maybe it's my age (grew up during the first wave of Liverpool domination so a lot of my peers and people 5-10 years older are Liverpool fans from those days) and the area I'm from, where most Liverpool fans I know have never even been to Liverpool and I wonder if it's the same thing for them as it is for people from Merseyside.  I'm a Villa fan, but I probably find myself in Aston 250+ days a year.  I see Villa Park most days of my life, I feel a bond with the people who see the same streets as I do.  Is it the same as supporting a club on the internet and hating Man Utd fans because popular culture tells me I should?  Again, I'm not saying that nobody doesn't deserve to be happy but I just can't be as pleased for someone who only supported Liverpool because they win things on the reg anyway as they probably want me to be. 

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3 minutes ago, Gotters said:

it's always a tricky one and needs more than the odd line or 2 drive by posting to cover it properly - but if you are somebody who pays to watch football regularly, which is a big commitment of time, travel cost on top etc, it is somewhat galling to be told by somebody who follows the game on an illegal stream that they, or somebody who switched allegiance from a blue to a red team a couple of years ago in Singapore, are just as important and the same level of fan that you are.

 

we're seeing now what local-ish fans bring to the sport, a video wall showing a zoom call isn't the same thing. 

 

I want to be happy for Liverpool, but I just think they are the team its impossible for me to celebrate their success, no matter how well managed, how good the squad, how scientific and analytic the signings have been. Its exactly the sort of thing I should appreciate but I just can't. Sorry (not sorry)

 

#unbearables

 

I find this such a weird position to hold, but whatever, it's your life.

 

If football was still primarily the domain of local fans, the quality of football would still be like the 80s. It's only the injection of Sky's money that allowed the league to expand, attract top international talent - which changed the game for the better - and become the product it is. All clubs have benefited from allowing fans who can't get to matches to see 'their' team play (and undoubtedly 'lesser' clubs will have picked up new fans too, just because of the strength of the overall product).

 

I am honestly surprised that you find it "galling" for other fans suggesting that they are "the same level of fan" as you. How does that impact on your life?

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32 minutes ago, dr_manhattan^ said:

It's silly to think I'd have a cut off point, but you know it when you see it.  Clearly a Liverpool fan with family and ties to the city has more of a connection than someone who buys a Liverpool top every three years and watches them on Sky, but has no stake in Liverpool as a city.

 

If you don't agree then fair enough, I have no ill will to these people, but there is a difference, and I accept it might not be clear to see.

 

@Oh Danny Boy suggesting holding this view is one step away from a national front membership can fuck off with that opinion though.


What’s the difference? You can have generations of family who support a team from another country. Their life experiences of supporting from Nigeria for instance doesn’t demean their support or make them lesser than someone who grew up under the shadow of Anfield. Their culture and experience of supporting Liverpool may be different but that doesn’t make it lesser. You can’t start creating measurements and hierarchies to how people experience their support. It’s elitist and yes feeds into less palatable ideologies hence why I mentioned the ‘football lads’.
 

If you think that primary ownership of support should be part of what is mostly a white working class community that is around the club, and yes you even mentioned generations, making it even more exclusive to this small community, you are already excluding others based on geography of birth. It’s hardly a stretch  of the imagination to see where that leads in some people’s minds. It’s all bollocks, we are all fans, we are all the same, some peoples experiences supporting Liverpool would be family based over generations living near the stadium, that doesn’t make their experience and culture of support greater or lesser to others around the world. Just different. It’s the beauty of football that’s it’s boundary less and can be experienced in many different ways. 

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I feel like this is the same as a lot of things in life, there isn't really an issue unless someone's being a dick about it.

 

If you've never been to Anfield and Liverpool winning the league makes you happy then great, there isn't enough happiness in the world. But if you start acting super smug, rubbing other people's noses in it or whatever then you're probably making yourself fair game to have the nature of your support shoved under the microscope. Even in the brutal environment of school it was like that really, someone who gobbed off about Man Utd. winning all the time would inevitably get grief back but someone less obnoxious wouldn't, at least to anything like the same degree.

 

I guess the issue is that a lot of that is seen as being part and parcel of supporting a football team so it tends to be the rule rather than the exception. And, y'know, 'being a dick' being slightly in the realm of the subjective.

 

3 minutes ago, Gabe said:

It's only the injection of Sky's money that allowed the league to expand, attract top international talent - which changed the game for the better - and become the product it is.

 

Fair play, it's not often I see the way Sky changed football put forward as an unambiguous positive. Especially with the word 'product' used so prominently!

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