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Football Thread 2019/2020

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3 minutes ago, Papaya Dance said:

Another VAR decision against Norwich. At least for a change the freeze frame suggests the right decision was made but again it's all a matter of where they arbitrarily decide to pause it. Zaha's foot is behind the ball so it's impossible to say where the exact moment of contact is. Roll it forward another frame and it would be offside. Whereas for Pukki's 'goal' against Spurs the footage is paused when the ball is already a foot away from Vrancic. 

 

We (Palace) deserved nothing from that game and were utterly dreadful, that must make the VAR element even more galling from a Norwich perspective.

 

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You are all focusing on the wrong thing here. It is clear that the way they are implementing VAR as a whole is wrong, but especially for offsides. It has already been stated that officials in England are being "too forensic" with offsides. The tech cannot be 100% accurate on offsides and was never intended to be used how it is. They will change the rules and make the officials improve their execution of VAR next season. But as I keep saying, the standard of officiating in the Premier league is so far off where it should be. There needs to be a major rethink on what they do moving forward as the current crop are way below the standard required. 

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1 minute ago, skadupuk said:

 

We (Palace) deserved nothing from that game and were utterly dreadful, that must make the VAR element even more galling from a Norwich perspective.

 

I think Palace did enough to deserve a point, we failed to put our chances away, like so many games this season. One goal was never going to be enough. I could accept Wickham was onside if Pukki's goal against Spurs had been given, barely anyone even celebrated Cantwell's opener today for fear that VAR was going to rule it out. If VAR is going to be shite could it at least be consistently shite for every side, not just us every fucking week.

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36 minutes ago, hercules said:

You are all focusing on the wrong thing here. It is clear that the way they are implementing VAR as a whole is wrong, but especially for offsides. It has already been stated that officials in England are being "too forensic" with offsides. The tech cannot be 100% accurate on offsides and was never intended to be used how it is. They will change the rules and make the officials improve their execution of VAR next season. But as I keep saying, the standard of officiating in the Premier league is so far off where it should be. There needs to be a major rethink on what they do moving forward as the current crop are way below the standard required. 

 

Did a referee run over your cat? Whilst you have some good points, you seem to have a lack of perspective. This is the first year of VAR in the Premiership and it was always going to have a huge impact on refereeing. They're even more scrutinised than ever before and that must play a part on their decision-making, confidence and ownership of match control. This isn't an English problem, the same issues happened in Germany and (to a lesser extent) Italy when VAR was introduced. Things were so bad in Germany that almost 50% of players wanted rid of it and the guy who ran it in Germany even got sacked for changing decisions that would favour his own team. The expectation that all the best referees should be in the Premiership and that it's a failure of refereeing standards is short-sighted. The Premiership is probably one of the quickest leagues in the world, making it harder to spot fouls, make accurate decisions and interpret whether players are fouled or whether it's simulation. I've had the misfortune to referee a couple of my son's games when a ref didn't turn up and it's bloody hard. That's without factoring in 20 parents moaning at every decision. You only need to look at the small percentage of mistakes our referees make to see they do a pretty decent job. 

 

The implementation of VAR in conjunction with an offside rule that needs modernising is to blame. Granted, referees have lacked the consistency of previous years but they are operating on ever-shifting sands. They can't start being sensible and generous with off-side decisions when the precedent for the season has been set. If they start being more liberal with off-side interpretation then teams will complain about a lack of fairness earlier in the decision. These ridiculous off-side decisions (a pube's distance between attacker and defender) will continue. Every game where VAR impacts on the result overturning errors that really weren't clear and obvious, further impacts on the confidence and competence of our referees. Changes will be made, sooner rather than later, and it will improve the operation of VAR. 

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@Stopharage jesus wept. You haven't understood a word I have said clearly for 3-4days. I have given a simple solution to offsides (it has already been said it will be changed for NEXT season) as I said it needed to to keep the integrity of the league. Offsides aren't my problem, it is the continual inconsistencies of the officiating in games, I have listed examples and I will give you another one that has not long happened. Kolasinac got booked 2mins in for a foul on Dan James. Very similar to Tomori's foul on Nelson against Chelsea 2mins in last week. Tomori didn't get booked. Lingard stopped arsenal taken a quick free kick, no booking. Kovacic should have had a second yellow earlier, 2 games in a row Chelsea have gotten away with it.

 

My main point has been the officials are not good enough in England, you can make the rules near on perfect but if the people carrying them out are incompetent nothing changes. 

 

Arsene spent years arguing about the standard of officiating in this league, long before VAR was introduced so it is no suprise they are a cluster fuck with it. 

 

Actually read my posts before you go at me because you have ended up looking stupid. 

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30 minutes ago, hercules said:

Offsides aren't my problem, it is the continual inconsistencies of the officiating in games,

It's almost as if different people referee different games featuring different players with differing circumstances and differing preceding events in different ways. 

 

31 minutes ago, hercules said:

My main point has been the officials are not good enough in England, you can make the rules near on perfect but if the people carrying them out are incompetent nothing changes. 

You also have some ridiculous assertion that England should be responsible for the best referees in the world, despite countries like Italy having far better associate bodies (creating VAR educational units to help referees implement it). Despite our game being faster paced than most. Despite us having 3 of the Top 30 and 2 of the Top 20. And despite having no understanding or appreciation for how VAR might have impacted on their role. 

 

34 minutes ago, hercules said:

Arsene spent years arguing about the standard of officiating in this league, long before VAR was introduced so it is no suprise they are a cluster fuck with it. 

You've got me there. Arsene Wenger, that well-known arbiter of unbiased critiques of referees. See also, myopic guru of his side's red card decisions. Let me guess, Fergie also said their time-keeping was a bit shit.

 

36 minutes ago, hercules said:

You haven't understood a word I have said clearly for 3-4days.

Despite your best attempts to obfuscate your points, I have understood what you've written. It's just there's an awful lot of bluster and hyperbole getting in the way. Our refs should be better; however any viewing of other major leagues will have you pretty thankful for what we have. Prior to this season, the %age of correct decisions referees make was 98%, based on making around 250 decisions every game. VAR was designed to help with the major decisions they get wrong; unfortunately its heavy-handed approach has taken any element of nuance and subjectivity out of proceedings. That's the fault of those introducing the system; they've failed fully to prepare referees for applying the 'clear and obvious error' principle.  

 

You'd get an awful lot out of this thread if you weren't quite so confrontational and a bit more open-minded. 

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The premier League this season feels like one of the strangest we've had in years. So much inconsistency across the league.

 

I've just noticed that places 7 to 17 inclusive, have all either won 6 or 7 matches which I find both crazy and also entirely in line with what I have seen.

 

A couple of wins for any team (outside of Norwich) can see a team go from being a relegation threat, to a Europa League contender.

 

A lot has been made about Arsenal's shit season, worst in decades etc. But their win against Utd puts them 10th, 4 points off United in 5th.

 

The bookies are either having a field day at the moment or a nightmare, with matches so difficult to predicted from one week to the next.

 

 

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11 hours ago, neoELITE said:

 

Hourihane's ok. 

 

Yep. He's ok. :hat:

 

To be fair to Conor, he's stepped up to the Premier League better than I thought he would have done. His journey to the top flight has been an interesting one, he's played and scored in all four divisions as far as I'm aware which makes him a member of a relatively exclusive club (tangent: didn't someone like Tony Cottee score in all four divisions in a calendar year once?) and while I think he'll be utilised as an impact sub in the Premier League I will say his dead ball ability and shooting from range is definitely up there with anybody in the country. It's other facets of his game which hold him back somewhat, he's been given a rather cruel "Conor Hologram" nickname by some because he rarely wins the ball back but overall I'm really pleased with him. He's definitely one of the key players from our promotion campaign and for £1.5m he was an utter steal. 

 

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Cottee has played in all four divisions in a single season, rather than a year - 2000-01 with Leicester, Norwich, Millwall and Barnet, scoring for Norwich and Barnet. Millwall and Barnet were his only trips outside of the top two divisions, so if there's someone who's scored in all of them in a calendar year, it's not him. 

 

But that's still some mad achievement.

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Burnley 1 - 2 Aston Villa

In a tight division, Burnley look like they are going to go down.  The first half was, from a Clarets perspective, utterly woeful.  Couldn't hit a short pass, lumping it up to two centre forwards playing against 5 defenders and ignoring the wide open flanks of the opponents 5-3-2.  Burnley the beneficiaries of one of the most ridiculous VAR overturns of the season, when Grealish headed in unmarked.  No one, and I mean no one in the stadium thought that it was worthy of an overturn.  I was bang in line with the players and - like several hundred Clarets around me - we had absolutely no complaints and no inkling of it being offside until the long check completed. (Even the feeling in the ground was FFS, just call it a goal and get on with it.)

Tarkowski was having one of his "Fuck it, I'm undroppable anyway" mistake ridden games.  Westwood's radar was off.  Cork has far too many miles on the clock.  Burnley were getting outtackled - outplayed and outskilled I'm used to, but outmuscled was a new one. Barnes had decided that he was only going to try and beat the returning Heaton was with a one time shot from 40 yards and kept smashing them into Row Z when not falling over and blaming the ref.   Wesley scored, no complaints.  As the half ended, Grealish was given all the time in the world and his own postcode to curl in a second.  Speaking of which, he's a little brat, isn't he?  A very talented player indeed, but regularly threw tantrums that a five year old would think was a bit much. As someone near me said, "I now understand why that Birmingham fan punched him".  The home side were booed off at half time, the visitors - in the most horrific away shirt in the Premier League - must have viewed the opening 45 as some extra Christmas presents.  

Barnes and Brady off, Rodriguez and Gudmundsson on.  Dyche made a tactical switch to suit, in that his players stopped playing negative percentage football and remembered that the ball was not, in fact, a ticking hand grenade.  The sort of thing that Clarets fans know that we can play, just the bloke in the dugout chooses not to.  Burnley had plenty of the ball and plenty of the pressure, with Tarkowski and Mee literally at opposite sides of the pitch like two people who have had a huge argument (which, judging by their body language, may not be too far from the truth).  Charlie Taylor ran up and down his wing like a metronome, clearly having the beating of the fullback but Villa, quite rightly, simply soaked up the pressure.  They don't have a good defence, Wood and JayRod missing gilt edged chances, but you can't spot many away teams a 2-0 lead and hope to get away with it.

Wood headed in an equaliser, but even then with the VAR joy was delayed when seeing Tom Heaton crumpled in the back of the net.  Despite no Burnley player near him, we were just wondering if it would be chalked off for a foul or something.  By the time the goal was confirmed, it was obvious that Heaton had injured himself - possibly on landing.  He was stretchered off to an ovation from all four sides of the ground.

It's funny, thinking back on it, Burnley had enough chances in the second half to win the game. Perhaps even should have won it.  But the first half was so miserable, so abject, that even a point would have been thoroughly undeserved purely because the players would have taken it as affirmation that the overall performance was acceptable.  I know that we have an incredible balancing act to perform, the problem is that the club are too often the wrong side of it.  I can take us shithousing a game, even enjoy it, but shithousing without purpose (like Barnes was) is just negative. Clarets have had three shots on goal in the last 360 minutes of football.  Dyche clearly picks and chooses his games and it is going to cost when it doesn't come off.  Speaking of cost, the last time the Clarets paid money for a first team regular was August 2017 and it absolutely shows.  With no sign of incoming players in January, and Danny Drinkwater off - probably to yesterdays opponents - we're back to hoping there are three worse teams than us.  And I'm not entirely sure that there are.

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Are Burnley just going thru that staleness thing - Fergie always advocated that a contingent of the players or the manager/coaches needed to be moved on every 3-4y otherwise they all stop listening to each other as get collectively a bit bored and familiarity means they've heard it all before (Pep is a big advocate of this theory too).

 

I'd imagine that relatively safe survival in the PL for Burnley could induce that sense of false comfort and complacency quite easily.

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I still think Burnley and Dyche have enough about them to get the job done and stay up. Bournemouth are currently having a nightmare and Norwich don't look like they have quite enough about them. And I'm not so sure how sustainable the resurgence at Watford is. Plus Newcastle have a lot of injuries and a tough 3 or 4 fixtures coming up. 

 

That said, there are only 10 points between Arsenal and Bournemouth so there's a fair bit of scope for change in the next few weeks.

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45 minutes ago, Gotters said:

Are Burnley just going thru that staleness thing - Fergie always advocated that a contingent of the players or the manager/coaches needed to be moved on every 3-4y otherwise they all stop listening to each other as get collectively a bit bored and familiarity means they've heard it all before (Pep is a big advocate of this theory too).

 

I'd imagine that relatively safe survival in the PL for Burnley could induce that sense of false comfort and complacency quite easily.


Reminded me of an interesting article Jonathan Wilson wrote for The Guardian a few years back, link here: Three Years

 

Quote

"The third year," the great Hungarian coach Bela Guttmann always said, "is fatal." If a manager stays at a club more than that, he said, his players tend to become bored and/or complacent and opponents start to work out counter-strategies. There are occasional exceptions, especially in weaker leagues, but at the highest level it seems to hold true that great teams last a maximum of three years – which is why Barcelona's draw against Espanyol on Saturday may be more significant than just two dropped points. This, after all, is Pep Guardiola's fourth season as a manager at the Camp Nou.

 

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Derby have a pretty decent track record with extracting performances out of older players (Paul McGrath springs to mind) so with someone like Rooney, I would expect a fairly decent return.

 

The downside is that everyone will want to kick lumps out of him at every opportunity.

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3 hours ago, Gotters said:

Are Burnley just going thru that staleness thing - Fergie always advocated that a contingent of the players or the manager/coaches needed to be moved on every 3-4y otherwise they all stop listening to each other as get collectively a bit bored and familiarity means they've heard it all before (Pep is a big advocate of this theory too).

 

I'd imagine that relatively safe survival in the PL for Burnley could induce that sense of false comfort and complacency quite easily.

 

I'm not sure it is that staleness as opposed to Dyches inflexible pragmatism. (Although I do agree with the principle of rotating the squad.)  The problem is that he has bought players and then simply not played them, leading the first team to justifiably believe that they are undroppable.  Tarkowski has always been a little bit of an egotist, but his England call-up really shifted his mindset for the worse, and Ben Gibson is £15m of central defender who simply can't get a sniff when Tarks has been particularly poor.

 

As a good example, Ashley Barnes is nursing a groin injury and hasn't played a full 90 in the Christmas period.  Yet he started yesterday and was shockingly bad - everything that opposing fans complain about him was on show, with none of the "good" shithousery.  It was a performance that probably the best word for is "selfish".  But can Jay Rodriguez get a start? No.  Can Matej Vydra get ten minutes?  No.  The weirdest thing was 1-0 down away to Everton and he brings Barnes off for Kevin Long.  A man who has played around 10 minutes of football and is a central defender.  I made a list on Twitter and Dyche has bought six different centre forwards in his seven years at Burnley who have simply not played for the club. That includes two of the three joint most expensive signings in the club's history who have made 10 starts between them in two and a half seasons!

 

Dyche took one look at Everton away and Ancelotti's first home game and set up for a 0-0.  That was a team that was begging to be attacked due to its fragility.  Same with the home game against Man Utd - they only won because our defender messed up, plus a breakaway in injury time.  Another team that Dyche set up for based on reputation rather than them being any great shakes.  The next four are Chelsea (A), Leicester (H), Man Utd (A), Arsenal (H).  I wonder if we'll manage more than one shot on goal per match.

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I think Burnley will survive this season because there are three sides worse than them in Bournemouth, Norwich City and one of Aston Villa or Watford that will fill the bottom three places.

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9 minutes ago, ryodi said:

I think Burnley will survive this season because there are three sides worse than them in Bournemouth, Norwich City and one of Aston Villa or Watford that will fill the bottom three places.

Watford have had an amazing Christmas. Look like they will pull away to me. 

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Watford are playing with a renewed belief after it was decimated in the FA cup final, the squad is substantially the same so I think they'll be safe. They have a decent enough spine with Deulofeu adding some much needed quality too.

 

It seems the squad has really benefitted from the management style of Pearson. The press is also working well, especially when you have someone like Deeney up top who is willing to do the dirty work and lead from the front. They really missed him for the first few months of this season.

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Watford always had far too good a squad for the position they were in.  Turns out that what they needed was a psychopathic manager.

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Agreed with Watford. They've been in a false position. 

 

 

 

News at Villa Park seems to suggest that Wesley is out until September following his coming together with Ben Mee. He's not been great for long stretches of the season but he's the only centre forward in the squad so we are basically fucked unless we get someone in pronto.  

SmartSelect_20200102-180703_Twitter.jpg

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We badly missed Deeney during his surgery, and Sarr took a while to settle in. The latter now looks a great prospect and well worth our record outlay. Him and Deuloufeu are flying at the moment.

 

Agree we did need a nutter to pull them into shape though, QSF is the supply teacher of football management.

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Re Wesley, the only blessing is that it happened during a transfer window so Villa can do something about it. 
 

Villa have had some bad luck with injuries this season. 

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