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I was chatting with an old friend yesterday who's a fan of the series. He also has FIFA, because that's what his son and all his mates play. When he asked his son if he'd not want to play PES, the reply was "never heard of it".

 

Such a fall from when PES was the number one choice for anyone seriously interested in football games. 

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Yeah PES was the best and probably still is the best as far as actual gameplay goes but it just can't compete with FIFA and the licences. I am surprised to see PES still going.  Surely with the state that Konami are in EA should step in and just wrap the licences around PES and boom - job done best footy game ever.

 

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I don't understand why they spend so much time and effort chasing footballing has beens and obscure licences. They should just go completely unlicensed and put the effort into a really extensive edit mode.

 

Even FIFA gets edited as unless you have absolutely everything people will want to add it. With that in mind, you may as well have nothing and give the community the tools to add it all rather than have the Taiwanese league and Zico as a manager with a limit of 200 edit slots or whatever it is. 

 

It made a sort of sense in the PS2 or PS3 era when not everyone was used to online updates but these days most people will tinker to some extent and for the FIFA boys that won't, they just need to get a look at a fully edited PES where everything is done to inspire them to look into it. At the moment it's a weird halfway house.

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Nah, I think they need some licenses to attract people. Most don't want to look at edit modes, they want to jump into a game as is rather than put any small amount of legwork just to bring the game up to a level they're happy with. The people who's reason for buying FIFA is because it has Manchester United and Tottenham Hotspur instead of Man Red and North East London are already ignorant of the patches they can easily use. FIFA just works.

 

What they should do, however, is drop the restriction on the how many additional clubs and leagues can be added, and allow for custom promotion/relegation setups. Having to choose just one European league to add to the game is kinda rubbish when the Bundesliga is such a glaring omission. 

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17 minutes ago, Fry Crayola said:

Nah, I think they need some licenses to attract people. Most don't want to look at edit modes, they want to jump into a game as is rather than put any small amount of legwork just to bring the game up to a level they're happy with. The people who's reason for buying FIFA is because it has Manchester United and Tottenham Hotspur instead of Man Red and North East London are already ignorant of the patches they can easily use. FIFA just works.

 

What they should do, however, is drop the restriction on the how many additional clubs and leagues can be added, and allow for custom promotion/relegation setups. Having to choose just one European league to add to the game is kinda rubbish when the Bundesliga is such a glaring omission. 

 

I get your point, and I think it stands in previous years when it wasn't so easy for users to patch games, but I don't think it makes a difference now. 

 

The people that are bothered about licences, and won't want to edit stuff, will always go to FIFA regardless of how many minor licences PES has. It will never compete with FIFA on that so stop trying. I suspect they put a lot of time and money and effort into getting what little they have and I really don't think it makes any difference.

 

If they instead made a more extensive, easier to use edit mode, they'd solve all those problems forever. No more chasing licences, no more complaints that they don't have this or that. Just a big fat deep edit mode once and for all that would enable the community to make their own day one patch that would include everything.

 

Yes, the people that care would look at PES and its naked unlicensed-ness and baulk but they do that already in its current state. Even fully patched versions can't include everything due to limitations and it can be fiddly. I suspect if you made that easier to the extent where you'd essentially have a full licence community patch on day one, that was easier to apply, it might change more minds than adding Maradona in a suit.

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I half suspect if they ditched all their licenses, they'd sell even fewer copies and the game would die. I don't think there are swathes of people holding off on buying the game because it's not editable enough, unfortunately.

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I disrespectfully disagree once more! :D

 

Personally, I prefer going back to the final PS1 games than the PS2. Playing the latter makes me miss the features of the current game, whereas the former feels more like a retro classic. That's just me, though - it's probably the graphics doing that.

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4 hours ago, Fry Crayola said:

I was chatting with an old friend yesterday who's a fan of the series. He also has FIFA, because that's what his son and all his mates play. When he asked his son if he'd not want to play PES, the reply was "never heard of it".

 

Such a fall from when PES was the number one choice for anyone seriously interested in football games. 

 

my son won't play PES because "the games always end 1-0", so I've not bought it since 2015...

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6 hours ago, Fry Crayola said:

I half suspect if they ditched all their licenses, they'd sell even fewer copies and the game would die. I don't think there are swathes of people holding off on buying the game because it's not editable enough, unfortunately.

 

But those swathes are holding off because it's not licensed enough, and FIFA is. So what's the point in having a few? It's never going to convince anyone who cares. I don't think anyone is looking at PES and FIFA and thinking, oh well, PES has Barcelona at least. 

 

Having 10, 20 or even a hundred different licences doesn't matter (to that demographic) when your competitor has more and bigger ones like the EPL. No one is buying PES because it has a few licences. I'd suspect their entire market is people who genuinely care about the gameplay and don't give a shit and the rest who will patch it to some degree.

 

I do also believe that given the opportunity to more easily edit, and add more, those same licence-obsessed people would view PES as a more viable option once the extent and ease with which it could be patched got out. At the moment it's a fiddly process to get an approximation which has me checking out if FIFA's any good yet every year.

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2 hours ago, Pockets said:

I don't think anyone is looking at PES and FIFA and thinking, oh well, PES has Barcelona at least

 

Anecdotal, but I know at least one person who bought PES 2019 because Celtic were a featured team. 

 

(then they didn't bother adding Celtic Park until about twenty minutes ago and he was not happy, which is classic PES).

 

I think the existing licensing has more of an effect than you do - I don't believe every single player is making an informed and correct decision based on substance over style. I don't think that's true of any game. In addition, the Xbox version has no editing features because of Microsoft's restrictions - dropping the licenses will affect that.

 

Licensing is also effective advertising. Every partnership is a target at a specific club's fans. Every official screenshot is enhanced when it features recognisable players in official kits in authentic stadiums. You can't show deep and rewarding gameplay in a banner ad. Rave reviews won't matter when FIFA is already drawing solid scores.

 

Without licensing comes diminished marketing, and a resulting knock on in sales. Perhaps the first unlicensed game does well, call it brand loyalty or momentum or retention or what have you. Maybe the second does too, but in five years? Ten? What if FIFA improves as it did a decade ago? What becomes of PES if it can no longer bank on superior gameplay?

 

If the team were an independent studio capable of doing enough business, then it could continue. Like, if it was made by Sports Interactive and had as powerful an editing suite, it'd basically be my perfect football game. But as a Konami effort, I think they'd kill it. They've pretty much killed everything else.

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As much as I'm critical of PES presentations and their whole way of doing things, it's hard to criticise this one. Certainly better than FIFA here.

 

 

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On 12/06/2019 at 22:35, Fry Crayola said:

If the team were an independent studio capable of doing enough business, then it could continue. Like, if it was made by Sports Interactive and had as powerful an editing suite, it'd basically be my perfect football game. But as a Konami effort, I think they'd kill it. They've pretty much killed everything else.

 

I agree with this, I don't think Konami could or would do it and if they tried I'm sure they'd fuck it up. I just think it might be a good approach to take for the sake of the game more than anything.

 

I do think if a third player, say 2K, wanted to get involved it's an option for them to take. I think the reason no one else has is because the licences are all tied up but you could get around it with my suggestion.

 

It is a risk I suppose for the reasons you mention. Entering the football game market with no licences needs an absolutely mindblowing game to overcome that and then you need enough people to realise that but I think you could grow something if you had the resources to support it early on.

 

That, of course, is why EA so desperately tie up all the licences they can and keep competitors out of the market. It allows them to keep churning out mediocrity. NFL fans will remember 2K5 which is still (15 years later!!!) the best NFL game ever made in terms of gameplay but ultimately killed off by EA exclusivity in a sport where licensing is even more essential.

 

2K did make another unlicensed game in 2007 but it failed, possibly due to the reasons you point out but also because it wasn't quite good enough and NFL doesn't have the community of editors established for years like PES does.

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3 minutes ago, Pockets said:

 

I agree with this, I don't think Konami could or would do it and if they tried I'm sure they'd fuck it up. I just think it might be a good approach to take for the sake of the game more than anything.

 

I do think if a third player, say 2K, wanted to get involved it's an option for them to take. I think the reason no one else has is because the licences are all tied up but you could get around it with my suggestion.

 

It is a risk I suppose for the reasons you mention. Entering the football game market with no licences needs an absolutely mindblowing game to overcome that and then you need enough people to realise that but I think you could grow something if you had the resources to support it early on.

 

That, of course, is why EA so desperately tie up all the licences they can and keep competitors out of the market. It allows them to keep churning out mediocrity. NFL fans will remember 2K5 which is still (15 years later!!!) the best NFL game ever made in terms of gameplay but ultimately killed off by EA exclusivity in a sport where licensing is even more essential.

 

2K did make another unlicensed game in 2007 but it failed, possibly due to the reasons you point out but also because it wasn't quite good enough and NFL doesn't have the community of editors established for years like PES does.

 

It took years for NBA 2K to match the sales of NBA Live. They only really materially surpassed EA’s effort in sales when EA monumentally fucked up and didn’t release a game one year. People want annual updates. The people who’d slavishly stuck to EA’s efforts only had one choice so they switched to 2K and realised it was a far better game.

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I don't know why people care about licenses. It bothers me more that teams aren't included, like Dortmund for years and now Bayern. Or incorrect names in some national teams like Brazil, which they amended later on but still isn't complete. No edits i made transferred to online divisions. Other main things that massively, MASSIVELY annoy me is lack of formation save slots. 3. THREE! The amount of a ball ache it is to swap players around before a game because you don't want to lose all time favourite formation say of Crystal Palace you're quite fond of. I save formations with tactics overriding the defaults of teams, but i'm not even sure that goes when i do an update. 20 replay save slots is also mean. These are simple things.

 

I've really got into PES 2019, i doubt i'd be able to go back to PES 2010. The chip through ball is something i use all the time, being able to shift the ball and wait for the exact moment to catch out the defenders is glorious and the one major thing you couldn't do for so many years. Online has died the last week and still won't work now, i tried winning the league with Man United on Legend in 5 minute games but it proved impossible. I couldn't get off a shot most games, the defending was too good. I dropped down a level and still would lose, Brighton would play like Barcelona, seriously great football, made my defence look so narrow. It was nice to see how good it was possible to play the game, but it's just not the same unless I'm online playing against a real person even though there is no indication of that being true. Occasionally you see human aggression, rash tackles, you think; is this his last game of his 10 that he needs to win to go up a division? But generally people are predictable, and i can't get enough of it. Enough of xavi pirouetting around opponents, feinting, pulling defenders one way to go the other. Until you reach a player who is switched on and notices. The amount of times I concede while trying to dribble past someone on the half way line. Have to do them every game.

 

I wasn't sure they'd be another PES really, maybe there's only few years left of them.

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59 minutes ago, Loik V credern said:

I don't know why people care about licenses. It bothers me more that teams aren't included, like Dortmund for years and now Bayern. Or incorrect names in some national teams like Brazil, which they amended later on but still isn't complete. No edits i made transferred to online divisions. Other main things that massively, MASSIVELY annoy me is lack of formation save slots. 3. THREE! The amount of a ball ache it is to swap players around before a game because you don't want to lose all time favourite formation say of Crystal Palace you're quite fond of. I save formations with tactics overriding the defaults of teams, but i'm not even sure that goes when i do an update. 20 replay save slots is also mean. These are simple things.

 

I've really got into PES 2019, i doubt i'd be able to go back to PES 2010. The chip through ball is something i use all the time, being able to shift the ball and wait for the exact moment to catch out the defenders is glorious and the one major thing you couldn't do for so many years. Online has died the last week and still won't work now, i tried winning the league with Man United on Legend in 5 minute games but it proved impossible. I couldn't get off a shot most games, the defending was too good. I dropped down a level and still would lose, Brighton would play like Barcelona, seriously great football, made my defence look so narrow. It was nice to see how good it was possible to play the game, but it's just not the same unless I'm online playing against a real person even though there is no indication of that being true. Occasionally you see human aggression, rash tackles, you think; is this his last game of his 10 that he needs to win to go up a division? But generally people are predictable, and i can't get enough of it. Enough of xavi pirouetting around opponents, feinting, pulling defenders one way to go the other. Until you reach a player who is switched on and notices. The amount of times I concede while trying to dribble past someone on the half way line. Have to do them every game.

 

I wasn't sure they'd be another PES really, maybe there's only few years left of them.

 

Yeah. I’m with you on the omission of teams. Two or three years ago when they had the Europa League licence they didn’t even have all the teams who made it to the group stage.

 

I wanted to play as Red Star Belgrade versus my mate who’s an Arsenal fan when they actually met in the tournament. Red Star didn’t exist. Annoyingly they were in the prior years release.

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On 12/06/2019 at 13:42, Fry Crayola said:

Nah, I think they need some licenses to attract people. Most don't want to look at edit modes, they want to jump into a game as is rather than put any small amount of legwork just to bring the game up to a level they're happy with. The people who's reason for buying FIFA is because it has Manchester United and Tottenham Hotspur instead of Man Red and North East London are already ignorant of the patches they can easily use. FIFA just works.

 

What they should do, however, is drop the restriction on the how many additional clubs and leagues can be added, and allow for custom promotion/relegation setups. Having to choose just one European league to add to the game is kinda rubbish when the Bundesliga is such a glaring omission. 

 

What about mods? Xbox allows it now. Pop the game in, have a system integrated like 2Ks, and every player who starts a mode gets a notification if they want to download kits and extra graphics from the community. Press yes, job done.

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I played PES religiously on PS2 between 2002 and about 2007. Couldn't get enough, it was always my main game. Then played a couple of them on 360, probably around 2010 and 11 when they introduced online master league. I thought that was absolutely brilliant. One year it just seemed a bit broken and I stopped playing. I Iust dropped off it completely.

 

Picked up 17 or 18 on the cheap the other year. Couldn't even work out where the online master league was! Utterly awful menu system. Played one season of master league offline and thought it lacked any sort of charm. Hideously complex menu systems. The game felt extremely bloated with unnecessary fluff.

 

I'm not sure what the point of this post is! I think basically I'm exactly the sort of person who should buy PES, but every time I try it I find it to be utterly charmless. The crappy menu systems, multiple shit game modes, horrible music, bullshit currency etc. I think I really hope someone comes along and makes an entirely new football game (like 2k) because I seriously doubt this team is ever going to pull it back now.

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37 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

Ι think that would be much cheaper than paying for licenses.

 

Anything's cheaper than paying for licenses, really. I mainly just doubt Konami's willingness to continue on with the game if they went down that road. 

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11 minutes ago, Hylian said:

I played PES religiously on PS2 between 2002 and about 2007. Couldn't get enough, it was always my main game. Then played a couple of them on 360, probably around 2010 and 11 when they introduced online master league. I thought that was absolutely brilliant. One year it just seemed a bit broken and I stopped playing. I Iust dropped off it completely.

 

Picked up 17 or 18 on the cheap the other year. Couldn't even work out where the online master league was! Utterly awful menu system. Played one season of master league offline and thought it lacked any sort of charm. Hideously complex menu systems. The game felt extremely bloated with unnecessary fluff.

 

I'm not sure what the point of this post is! I think basically I'm exactly the sort of person who should buy PES, but every time I try it I find it to be utterly charmless. The crappy menu systems, multiple shit game modes, horrible music, bullshit currency etc. I think I really hope someone comes along and makes an entirely new football game (like 2k) because I seriously doubt this team is ever going to pull it back now.

I'm the other side of this coin; the person who is compelled to play 1,500 games a year online, despite being completely frustrated 80% of the time that I play it.

 

The game is now a bloated mess and two things stand out as examples for me. Firstly, licenses. I thought it was a bit of masterstroke this year when they added the Scottish, Portugese and Turkish leagues as a way to pick up some sales across various countries. Less so the Thai, Chilean and Swiss leagues, but whatever. Unfortunately, Konami also decided to add in 'Player of The Week' cards to MyClub. These were players who performed well and had a stats boost, available for one week only. You could pay for three shots at each weekly pot or you could probably afford one per week if you collected the log in bonuses each day.

 

The impact this has was to make most of the new leagues completely redundant in MyClub. The first pot had a 96 rated Neymar, a 96 rated Ziyech and a 93 rated Simeone, amongst others. This continued every week, meaning that you never see any of the players that were added to the game as part of the league licenses. It also means that every one is fielding hyper strength teams, with no nuance or difference.

 

Second issue is the controls and the way the game plays. Forget the fact that Konami can't balance the game at all. Each yearly iteration now swings from one extreme to the other. The actual core game is simply confused and confusing. Take passing, if I want to pass from one player to another, here's what I need to consider:

- my own pass assist rating (1-3 or manual)

- the pass stats of my player

- the play style of my player (orchestrator, classic no. 10 etc)

- the pass cards of my player (weighted pass, no look pass, low lofted pass, first time pass, outside curler)

- the cards of the defender (interception, malicia)

- the attacking stats of my manager (pass support range, compactness)

- the defensive stats of the opposing manager (compactness, pressure, defensive line)

- how my opponent plays

- quality of the connection

 

It is simply impossible to determine what are the success factors in any move and none of it is explained by Konami in any depth, anywhere. The only element that seems to guarantee success, is when the opponent pressures and space opens up. When you add to this the random elements of the game (Tackles, runs, CPU fouls etc) that play in, it just becomes rage inducing.

 

There are many, many other issues; the lack of a decent training mode, the fact that they haven't fixed bugs that have been in the game since October. I worry now that people spend so much on MyClub that it makes enough money for them to just carry on like this.

 

Inevitably I'll download the demo, this version will be an iteration on 2019; the only chance of change will be in the 2021 version, as developments to the engine only seem to happen every two years. I'll not hold my breath.

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