Elden Ring - Shadow of the Erdtree Expansion Announced

[Tomdominer]

10 minutes ago, ChewMagma said:

I fully believe that From intends their lock on system to be awkward in many circumstances.

[ChewMagma]

Just now, Tomdominer said:

 

Do you want to discuss this stuff or not? What is the problem?

[Girth Certificate]

if you add some clouds and lightning bolts to that facepalm it'd totally look like an Ash of War

[Exit Chamber]

5 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

 

Seems more like you want agreement than debate tbh.

[Tomdominer]

2 minutes ago, Blunted said:

Seems more like you want agreement than debate tbh.

 

Maybe you are right. I just can't really continue a debate if other people think From (or any other successful developer) intentionally made something bad / janky.

 

Also, I think its interesting that the lock-on for Breath of the Wild isn't really questioned in the same way. Its almost as if the lock-on system on that was designed better....

[ChewMagma]

2 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

 

Maybe you are right. I just can't really continue a debate if other people think From (or any other successful developer) intentionally made something bad / janky.

 

Also, I think its interesting that the lock-on for Breath of the Wild isn't really questioned in the same way. Its almost as if the lock-on system on that was designed better....

 

"Awkward" is not a synonym for "bad/janky" for the record. When I say it is "awkward" I'm not suggesting it is bad.

 

Anyway I'll be honest, I'd only ever agree with you if you can dig out an interview with Miyazaki or one of the developers where they admit that they hate their lock on system and having been trying scrap it for ages but couldn't work out how to, so I will shut the fuck about it now.

[Kevvy Metal]

5 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

 

Maybe you are right. I just can't really continue a debate if other people think From (or any other successful developer) intentionally made something bad / janky.

 

That's not what anyone is saying. It's absolutely not bad or janky. It's good and works as intended. It's just not suitable for all situations.

 

Generally speaking - 

Some games have scripted camera's, but you then get people complaining that the camera is bad because it didn't read their mind and point exactly at what they wanted to see. 
Some games have manual camera's, but you then get people complaining that the game didn't show you want it wanted you to see. 

 

ad infinitum. 

[Exit Chamber]

13 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

Also, I think its interesting that the lock-on for Breath of the Wild isn't really questioned in the same way. Its almost as if the lock-on system on that was designed better....

 

I must admit I haven't played an awful lot of it (I know, planning on remedying that soon) but from what I have seen there weren't as many enormous lock-on-able targets and they were in more open environments. Maybe that changes further into the BOTW? 

[Kevvy Metal]

1 hour ago, Majora said:

I feel like I'm going crazy reading some of the defences of the lock-on in this thread. Absolutely mental.

 

If you give the player a lock-on and the player uses it to lock onto a boss, and then the lock-on sometimes breaks because the boss moves behind a pillar for three seconds but sometimes doesn't break when it moves behind a pillar then there is a problem with the lock-on.

 

Lock-on has been the gold-standard for 3D combat since Ocarina of Time. We have all played a billion games with lock-on since then. We know how it's meant to work.

 

What some of you are doing in your blind defence of the game is ascribing player fault to a game deficiency. 'Oh but players should know not to use it in situations X, Y and Z and that if the moon is high and the temperature is 28 degrees that it might not work properly'

 

Unless you are going to sit there with a straight face and honestly tell me that you think it's intentional the lock-on sometimes breaks when an enemy moves behind an object/bit of scenery and sometimes doesn't then it is a flawed and unreliable implementation of a decades old system. The onus should not be on the player to constantly work around its deficiencies and inconsistencies.

 

Full-on straw man argument as no-one has mentioned the issue of line-of-sight being broken resulting in the camera-lock not functioning, or at least I've never mentioned that or read anyone else mention that specific thing. 

 

Is it a bug? not really, as it makes sense that your line of sight being broken would result in the target lock disengaging. It also does this after back-stabs and viceral attacks and what not. It's also barely an issue that crops up for me, and if my target lock disengages because I can no longer see the enemy then that's more of an appriciatable boon that an issues... as I can't see the enemy! That would be annoying. 

[therearerules]

I don't think they're comparable- BotW doesn't have giant bosses, harsh platforming sections or buzzing flies, which is what people find the lock on less than helpful for. I'm struggling here because I'm not really sure what a better lock on system in this gameworld would look like. What would a better lock on for Radahn look like? Or a lock on when crossing a thin beam look like? Or a lock on for a dragonfly look like? The system as it stands is consistent and pretty easy to use, and I've never felt it's done something I haven't asked it to do, even if it has done stupid things I've asked it to do (like jump at an enemy who's falling off a cliff).

 

edit- things that would be helpful would be the ability to lock onto an undead as its reviving and shoot at a locked on enemy whilst on horseback, oh and if you've locked onto an enemy lower down and shoot, not for your bolt to hit the ground in front of you. But I don't get the feeling that's what's being discussed here.

[Tomdominer]

Well, that's exactly what I meant by "I also believe that the lock-on system is probably about as good as they can get it with the other design choices they have made about the game, but that doesn't make it beyond criticism."

 

[Anne Summers]

14 hours ago, Alask said:

You definitely can summon an NPC for fire giant. There’s two entrances, if you’re not seeing it try the other entrance.

 

  Hide contents

It’s Alexander the jar guy. Does prevent you using Torrent though. 

 

Ah ... I've not seen Alex since the festival of Radagahn. So maybe that explains why he doesn't turn up for me to summon. 

[Tomdominer]

6 minutes ago, Kevvy Metal said:

Full-on straw man argument as no-one has mentioned the issue of line-of-sight being broken resulting in the camera-lock not functioning, or at least I've never mentioned that or read anyone else mention that specific thing. 

 

2 hours ago, Tomdominer said:

Or locked onto an enemy, but the lock has been lost, because of the line of sight was obscured for a few seconds, and the camera is now facing the wrong direction and you've been hit in the side, or back, as you struggle to re-gain a lock. Or struggle to gain a lock-on at all, because the enemy is behind some invisible collision.

 

🤷‍♂️

[Kevvy Metal]

1 minute ago, Tomdominer said:

 

 

🤷‍♂️

 

Ok, you mentioned it. But how much is this even an issue? I've played all the Souls games and this was barely ever a thing, or even a problem.

[therearerules]

2 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

Ah ... I've not seen Alex since the festival of Radagahn. So maybe that explains why he doesn't turn up for me to summon. 

I didn't see him on my travels, turns out he was still at the festival combat grounds and I'd completely missed him!

[Benny]

2 hours ago, Tomdominer said:

 

 

Sorry guys, but if you are only using lock on in certain situations, that means it doesn't work properly. The lock on system should deal with all situations, and not rely on some player learnt rules about what situations to use it in. I'm perfectly aware that you shouldn't use the lock on in all situations, and experienced enough to know how to manage the lock-on system so that I avoid the pitfalls, but the reality is, that shouldn't be the case. The system should deal with all the situations, and be easier to manage.

 

I don't agree with this at all. The lock-on system is by no means perfect, but no in-game tool should be required to work in all situations - in the same way that a narrow corridor will suit a spear more than swinging a greatsword. Otherwise everything just becomes so bland and uniform. I honestly love the weird jank in From games, it always makes them "feel" so distinct from everything else. Warts and all.

[Anne Summers]

17 minutes ago, therearerules said:

I didn't see him on my travels, turns out he was still at the festival combat grounds and I'd completely missed him!

I spoke to him after the fight , when he was happily 

Spoiler

Stuffing corpses inside himself, which apparently is how he is powered! 

But not sure where he went after that. Don't think he is still there in my game. 

[John0]

31 minutes ago, Kevvy Metal said:

Full-on straw man argument as no-one has mentioned the issue of line-of-sight being broken resulting in the camera-lock not functioning, or at least I've never mentioned that or read anyone else mention that specific thing. 

 

4 hours ago, John0 said:

I think lock-on could definitely be better. Often an enemy moves out of sight round a pillar or something and it you stay locked on to it, but then the moment where it actually locks-off is the moment where it appears back in view, for some reason.

 

[Triple A]

Hmm.

 

Well the name 'lock-on' does pretty clearly communicate that you would 'stay on target', even if line of sight is broken.

This said, the way it works/doesn't work right now, does contribute to player experience in a way that I think is intentional.

[Captain Kelsten]

[Kevvy Metal]

Lock-on

[Tomdominer]

I suppose this puts an end to the debate entirely....

 

https://www.gameinformer.com/parody/2022/04/01/game-infarcer-hidetaka-miyazaki-masterfully-dodges-elden-ring-criticism-saying-no

[Benny]

I despair for how stupid people have become that parody articles have to specifically mark themselves as "parody". Presumably to avoid death threats.

[Benny]

I've spent the best part of the afternoon excitedly describing and explaining Elden Ring to my mother. In the way that I would have about things that excited me when I was 6 years old.

[John0]

Been working on it the past few days but last night I finally beat Melania solo. It started off as just trying not to use summons but the better I got at it the more I realised I could do it without magic or bleed/frost or anything. Once I got over the initial frustration it actually turned into a really satisfying and rewarding fight to keep plugging away at. This is the most I've ever learnt a FROM boss and it felt really damn good to start feeling in control of the fight! And it's a really nice flowing dance of a fight once you start pressing her a bit.

 

I've only just learnt how good Square Off is, after roughly 200 hours of using a straight sword! It has the same stance break stat as Flame of the Redmanes that Imp used in his awesome solo video I believe.

 

 

It's long, but really pleased with how it turned out! Aside from panicking a bit after getting caught gesturing and allowing her to heal all the way back up to full at the start of phase 2 (whoops), and getting out of my rhythm a bit at the end when I saw her so low on health, I felt very in control the whole time. Really chuffed with that!

[yakumo]

I haven't finished the game yet, but the lord in volcano manor is EPIC!!.

 

Now what I want to know is there a mode where I can play all the bosses again?.

[Uzi]

I think I'm kinda lucky to not be one of those gamers where things that may or not be design flaws (not getting into that fuckery) bothers me that much. After 120 hours in the game and finishing it twice, I never once thought "man this lock on is poopy!". Not once! Even the pretty bad stuttering didn't put me off. 

 

Anyway what proves to me that the games in terms of combat are near flawless is that people are able to do NO HIT runs of five+ fromsoft games back to back. Let me spell that you.

 

People finish Demons Souls, Dark Souls 1, Dark Souls 2, Dark Souls 3, Bloodborne (and I think someone did it with Sekiro too?) back to back without getting hit a single time in the marathon of games. I'm pretty sure the systems be it lock on or whatever work to allow that to happen eh?

[smac]

1 hour ago, Benny said:

I despair for how stupid people have become that parody articles have to specifically mark themselves as "parody". Presumably to avoid death threats.

 

Dude. Check out the date on it...

[Kevvy Metal]

36 minutes ago, Uzi said:

I think I'm kinda lucky to not be one of those gamers where things that may or not be design flaws (not getting into that fuckery) bothers me that much. 

 

Oh yes absolutely this!
One thing I've learnt from my time in game development is that one person's flaw is another's ..err.. treasure! and exactly the reason why they love that aspect of the game.

It's all so subjective and in the hand holding the controller of the beholder... that I get so frustrated with people pushing what they think are defacto flaws that absolutely need fixed when it would be completely to the detriment of what the game is trying to achieve. A little bit of player friction is often absolutely welcome and what gives spice to what could be a rather bland game with all the rough edges smoothed off.

We have absolutely enough of those focussed-tested-to-oblivion games already. 
Also, players often need to be saved from themselves spoiling the fun out of things. Much like Battlefield losing it's amazing supression mechanic and what not, due to the moaning from the community. 

rllmuk's own Nate Dog wrote this absolutely fantastic piece on this kind of thing. I thought it was absolutely fantastic and I couldn't agree more! Get that game design best practise playbook straight in the fucking bin I say. 

https://www.eurogamer.net/elden-ring-is-massively-imbalanced-but-balance-is-overrated-anwyay 

[Benny]

18 minutes ago, smac said:

 

Dude. Check out the date on it...

 

I'm not sure what difference that makes. It's still being marked as parody.