Elden Ring - Shadow of the Erdtree Expansion Announced

[Tomdominer]

13 hours ago, Kevvy Metal said:

It’s not broken in the slightest, it literally locks on and tracks the thing your locked onto or you don’t lock on and manually move it with the right stick. 

 

12 hours ago, Davros sock drawer said:

What’s wrong with it? 

 

Oh come on guys. I'm a huge Souls fan, but the game isn't beyond criticism. The lock on system is fiddly, and difficult to manage. Perhaps not "broken" but certainly can be a fucking pain in the arse.

 

How many times have you locked onto an enemy that has proceeded to fall off the side, and you've attacked with a big lunging move, and fallen off with them. Or locked onto an enemy, but the lock has been lost, because of the line of sight was obscured for a few seconds, and the camera is now facing the wrong direction and you've been hit in the side, or back, as you struggle to re-gain a lock. Or that you have struggling to gain a lock on the priority enemy, as a swarm of foe attack you. Or struggle to gain a lock-on at all, because the enemy is behind some invisible collision.

 

The list goes on a on and fucking on...

 

EDIT: What Doctor Shark said as well.

[Kevvy Metal]

2 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

How many times have you locked onto an enemy that has proceeded to fall off the side, and you've attacked with a big lunging move, and fallen off with them. Or locked onto an enemy, but the lock has been lost, because of the line of sight was obscured for a few seconds, and the camera is now facing the wrong direction and you've been hit in the side, or back, as you struggle to re-gain a lock. Or that you have struggling to gain a lock on the priority enemy, as a swarm of foe attack you. Or struggle to gain a lock-on at all, because the enemy is behind some invisible collision.

 

...not often, because I largely only use lock-on in reliable and approriate situations. 

[Alask]

Any tips I might have missed for dealing with crucible knights as melee? Is it literally just get better at parrying or is there some handy craftable item that helps when it’s just you vs them? Any YouTube video I watch just trivialises them with parries, but I’m just not that good at parries. 

 

 

[Jamie John]

Bloody Ron Vs Red Wolf:

 

 

 

Lol.

 

[therearerules]

3 minutes ago, Alask said:

Any tips I might have missed for dealing with crucible knights as melee? Is it literally just get better at parrying or is there some handy craftable item that helps when it’s just you vs them? Any YouTube video I watch just trivialises them with parries, but I’m just not that good at parries. 

 

 

 

I just run away a lot and heal. Never enter a trade off of blows, back off and roll up.

[Tomdominer]

20 minutes ago, Kevvy Metal said:

...not often, because I largely only use lock-on in reliable and appropriate situations. 

 

Because it isn't reliable and a bit broken?

[dug]

I've decided on a sort-of challenge-ish run for my new game. Basically a parry build. The only shield I'm allowed is the buckler. I'm only allowed to use weapons which have a crit multiplier over 100, but must always remain in light equipment load. I can only use magic which buffs, no direct damage magic. 

 

And no spirit ash summons. We'll see how long that particular one lasts though...

[Davros sock drawer]

24 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

 

 

Oh come on guys. I'm a huge Souls fan, but the game isn't beyond criticism. The lock on system is fiddly, and difficult to manage. Perhaps not "broken" but certainly can be a fucking pain in the arse.

 

How many times have you locked onto an enemy that has proceeded to fall off the side, and you've attacked with a big lunging move, and fallen off with them. Or locked onto an enemy, but the lock has been lost, because of the line of sight was obscured for a few seconds, and the camera is now facing the wrong direction and you've been hit in the side, or back, as you struggle to re-gain a lock. Or that you have struggling to gain a lock on the priority enemy, as a swarm of foe attack you. Or struggle to gain a lock-on at all, because the enemy is behind some invisible collision.

 

The list goes on a on and fucking on...

 

EDIT: What Doctor Shark said as well.

 

Sorry, but that simply doesn't reflect my experience with the game. 

 

I think maybe some of you are seeing the tutorial about locking on, and thinking that means you have to lock on all the time. It's not always appropriate to do so. I never usually lock on if there's a swarm of enemies coming towards me, far better to wade in and aim manually. Even two of those imps in the catacombs wouldn't be a good time to use lock on, as they jump around so much.

 

The lock on works, it's just horses for courses.

[Kevvy Metal]

2 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

 

Because it isn't reliable and a bit broken?

 

No, it reliably locks onto the enemy. It does exactly as asked, and isn't functionality broken. It's just there's situations where using it puts you at a disadvantage. 

You could also play the game using nothing but jump attacks. That is a tool available to you but if you did that on a ledge or such like, you'd probably fall off a lot. Doesn't make jump attacks broken. 

[Captain Kelsten]

Relevant:

 

 

[Tomdominer]

12 minutes ago, Davros sock drawer said:

I think maybe some of you are seeing the tutorial about locking on, and thinking that means you have to lock on all the time. It's not always appropriate to do so. I never usually lock on if there's a swarm of enemies coming towards me, far better to wade in and aim manually. Even two of those imps in the catacombs wouldn't be a good time to use lock on, as they jump around so much.

 

12 minutes ago, Kevvy Metal said:

No, it reliably locks onto the enemy. It does exactly as asked, and isn't functionality broken. It's just there's situations where using it puts you at a disadvantage. 

You could also play the game using nothing but jump attacks. That is a tool available to you but if you did that on a ledge or such like, you'd probably fall off a lot. Doesn't make jump attacks broken. 

 

Sorry guys, but if you are only using lock on in certain situations, that means it doesn't work properly. The lock on system should deal with all situations, and not rely on some player learnt rules about what situations to use it in. I'm perfectly aware that you shouldn't use the lock on in all situations, and experienced enough to know how to manage the lock-on system so that I avoid the pitfalls, but the reality is, that shouldn't be the case. The system should deal with all the situations, and be easier to manage.

[therearerules]

Finished this yesterday evening, got the bosses straight after posting about them here, turned out to be relatively easy once I equipped the haligree+2 and pearldrake+2 medaliion, also swapped armour to regen health for my mimic, and everything else was maximum weight and poise. Didn't even use one of my 50 rune arcs because it was just an attempt, but they went down pretty easily.

 

What a game. Defies hyperbole how good this game is. Sure the end is a bit of a boss rush, but there wasn't a location which didn't floor me when I started exploring it. The first thing I did when reach a location was always just look around. I'd run to the edge and look down at my past ventures, or up if I was subterranean. I went into NG+, but sacked that off because I want that sense of adventure, and running around completely OP isn't that. Sword and boarded it all the way through, 130 hours, used the same greatsword I got from a limgrave knight in the first hour till the end of the game, and went brass shield-cuckoo greatshield- big face greatshield- fingerprint greatshield. And Crepus' crossbow for cheese strats. I know it's not the way people like to play it, but I love the sword combat in these games, even if it trivialised a lot of later fights (shield up, wait for them to boink, retaliate).

Not sure what to do now about replaying. I'd love a magic run, just to see what that's like, but I'd miss the unknown. Might watch some speedruns and lore videos then wait until the DLC or something. Or go for a pacifist run (with additional magic). Or play something else of course.

 

[Qazimod]

2 hours ago, Blunted said:

I understand the frustration with lock-on at times, which makes me wonder are there examples of better lock-on implementations in any similar games?

 

A “soft” lock-on would be interesting - this is what you see in Platinum action games where you “stick” to the enemy you’re attacking until you move away. Maybe that could be an extra layer in a From game, where you wait for the camera to focus on a particular dude and then hit R3 if you want to maintain that focus…

[ChewMagma]

19 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

 

 

Sorry guys, but if you are only using lock on in certain situations, that means it doesn't work properly. The lock on system should deal with all situations, and not rely on some player learnt rules about what situations to use it in. I'm perfectly aware that you shouldn't use the lock on in all situations, and experienced enough to know how to manage the lock-on system so that I avoid the pitfalls, but the reality is, that shouldn't be the case. The system should deal with all the situations, and be easier to manage.

 

Why shouldn't it be the case though? Why is it bad for a developer to ask players to figure things out or engage with a mechanic? Why do the edges need to be smoothed off?

[Davros sock drawer]

18 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

 

 

Sorry guys, but if you are only using lock on in certain situations, that means it doesn't work properly. The lock on system should deal with all situations, and not rely on some player learnt rules about what situations to use it in. I'm perfectly aware that you shouldn't use the lock on in all situations, and experienced enough to know how to manage the lock-on system so that I avoid the pitfalls, but the reality is, that shouldn't be the case. The system should deal with all the situations, and be easier to manage.

That’s absolute nonsense.

 

You can totally use lock on to target a flying enemy. It’ll work. Just don’t be surprised if the camera spins around like mad as the enemy does! That’s not the game being broken, it’s someone using the wrong tool for the situation. 

 

 

[Kevvy Metal]

15 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

 

 

Sorry guys, but if you are only using lock on in certain situations, that means it doesn't work properly. The lock on system should deal with all situations, and not rely on some player learnt rules about what situations to use it in. I'm perfectly aware that you shouldn't use the lock on in all situations, and experienced enough to know how to manage the lock-on system so that I avoid the pitfalls, but the reality is, that shouldn't be the case. The system should deal with all the situations, and be easier to manage.

 

No, it works as intended and locks onto an enemy, why should it be diluted from that pure functionality to deal with a miriade of edge cases making it probably less functional and more fuzzy? You probably end up with situations like the likes of The Last Guardian with both camera scripting and a manual camera totally fighting against each other. 

I mean you could also just demand the moon on a stick and want to game to do everything for you perfectly all the time, or you can actually operate it with the tools that have been given to you, that work as intended.  

[therearerules]

Lock on does what it says- it locks onto an enemy. I'm not sure how you could have a lock on which doesn't lock on tbh. The only time it fails for me as an actual lock on is crossbow shooting on horseback- literally just doesn't work. Everything else is fine though.

[Stoikovich]

40 minutes ago, Alask said:

Any tips I might have missed for dealing with crucible knights as melee? Is it literally just get better at parrying or is there some handy craftable item that helps when it’s just you vs them? Any YouTube video I watch just trivialises them with parries, but I’m just not that good at parries. 

 

 

No real tips, maybe come back with the rot breath which is a good boss killer?
All the tough enemies have a move set, with limited openings to punish.  I never think I need to ‘git good’, rather I need to spend a few attempts learning the openings and tells
 

 Parries - are only occasionally essential to learn…  and also very frustrating until they click!
 I originally noped out from Crucible Knight(s) as couldn’t be bothered.  But one night I set to it and now I look forward to further encounters.  Parries are not necessary, but they do hasten the fight, look cool, and its supremely satisfying to finally dish out a proper thrashing 

[Tomdominer]

The lesson here is that debating game design on this forum is utterly futile.

[Captain Kelsten]

“The lock on system locks on, so it isn’t broken”

 

Is certainly one take. 
 

Mine would be “the lock on system locks on, and is useful a lot of the time, but it does not always lock to the right thing, sometimes it doesn’t work the way you think it will, sometimes if the enemy is too big the lock on struggles or makes your camera freak out, if you lock on to an enemy that suddenly moves it can cause positioning issues for you (on a narrow walkway, enemy suddenly jumps as you execute an attack, your character moves out of your control to follow through the animation, you fall off the walkway), but you don’t have to use the lock on all the time and over time you do figure out which situations it works and which you’d rather not”. 
 

You’d think it should work like the lock on in a Zelda game, and it kinda does, but the combat doesn’t so often there’s a disconnect. 
 

Lock on! 

[ChewMagma]

4 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

The lesson here is that debating game design on this forum is utterly futile.

 

Come on. You had a take. Some people didn't agree. Plenty probably do and will be along shortly. Don't be a baby about it.

[Davros sock drawer]

6 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

The lesson here is that debating game design on this forum is utterly futile.

It is if your points are flawed, as yours are, yes.

[Kevvy Metal]

6 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

The lesson here is that debating game design on this forum is utterly futile.

 

You're engaging in debate! It's fine but don't expect to snap your fingers and expect to covert everyone to your point of view. 
I absolutely don't think there's an issue with the lock on system and have expressed reasons why. 

[Majora]

I feel like I'm going crazy reading some of the defences of the lock-on in this thread. Absolutely mental.

 

If you give the player a lock-on and the player uses it to lock onto a boss, and then the lock-on sometimes breaks because the boss moves behind a pillar for three seconds but sometimes doesn't break when it moves behind a pillar then there is a problem with the lock-on.

 

Lock-on has been the gold-standard for 3D combat since Ocarina of Time. We have all played a billion games with lock-on since then. We know how it's meant to work.

 

What some of you are doing in your blind defence of the game is ascribing player fault to a game deficiency. 'Oh but players should know not to use it in situations X, Y and Z and that if the moon is high and the temperature is 28 degrees that it might not work properly'

 

Unless you are going to sit there with a straight face and honestly tell me that you think it's intentional the lock-on sometimes breaks when an enemy moves behind an object/bit of scenery and sometimes doesn't then it is a flawed and unreliable implementation of a decades old system. The onus should not be on the player to constantly work around its deficiencies and inconsistencies.

[ChewMagma]

9 minutes ago, Majora said:

I feel like I'm going crazy reading some of the defences of the lock-on in this thread. Absolutely mental.

 

If you give the player a lock-on and the player uses it to lock onto a boss, and then the lock-on sometimes breaks because the boss moves behind a pillar for three seconds but sometimes doesn't break when it moves behind a pillar then there is a problem with the lock-on.

 

Lock-on has been the gold-standard for 3D combat since Ocarina of Time. We have all played a billion games with lock-on since then. We know how it's meant to work.

 

What some of you are doing in your blind defence of the game is ascribing player fault to a game deficiency. 'Oh but players should know not to use it in situations X, Y and Z and that if the moon is high and the temperature is 28 degrees that it might not work properly'

 

Unless you are going to sit there with a straight face and honestly tell me that you think it's intentional the lock-on sometimes breaks when an ememy moves behind an object/bit of scenery and sometimes doesn't then it is a flawed and unreliable implementation of a decades old system. The onus should not be on the player to constantly work around its deficiencies.

 

Of course the lock on system is intentional. It has been an absolute constant in their combat system for a decade. Do you think they didn't notice how it worked? Does the fact they didn't decide to change it not suggest it is intentional?

 

You can tell it is 100% intentional btw because they literally construct encounters to test your usage of it.

 

One of the things that gets my goat with many of the criticisms of these games is that people sincerely seem to believe that From have made loads of game design mistakes that need to be fixed, if only they were pointed out to them. I think they may know what they are doing at this point.

[Tomdominer]

Well, I've had many many design debates on this forum, and not a single one has resulted in a response "oh yeah, you might actually have a point there", but a fair few has resulted in me being told I'm wrong (and a few cases, being told I am also "mental"). But, ok then, I will continue with this futile debate.

 

Anyone saying that the design isn't wrong, and you are actually using it wrong, is making a fundamentally incorrect response to bad design. Donald Normal talks about this in his classic design text "The Design of Everyday Things" where he noted that "whenever people made errors using these devices, they blamed themselves." Imagine someone saying they have to turn the auto-aim off in certain situations in Call of Duty, because, to me, that's what you guys are saying about this system. "Its fine. Just turn it off when it doesn't work." Hhhmmm.

 

Good design is invisible, or to put it another way "when something is well-designed, you don't notice it's there and how easy it is to use."  The lock on system should address and deal with all situations, like I've said before. It should be seamless, and, just work. Sure, this might actually be impossible, and asking for the 'moon on a stick', but that doesn't mean they shouldn't strive for perfection.

 

Also, anyone saying that From Software believe their game is perfect, and they haven't made any design "mistakes", is kidding themselves. Creators are the worst critics, and I can easily imagine this debate has raged internally. I also believe that the lock-on system is probably about as good as they can get it with the other design choices they have made about the game, but that doesn't make it beyond criticism.

[ChewMagma]

2 minutes ago, Tomdominer said:

Well, I've had many many design debates on this forum, and not a single one has resulted in a response "oh yeah, you might actually have a point there", but a fair few has resulted in me being told I'm wrong (and a few cases, being told I am also "mental"). But, ok then, I will continue with this futile debate.

 

Anyone saying that the design isn't wrong, and you are actually using it wrong, is making a fundamentally incorrect response to bad design. Donald Normal talks about this in his classic design text "The Design of Everyday Things" where he noted that "whenever people made errors using these devices, they blamed themselves." Imagine someone saying they have to turn the auto-aim off in certain situations in Call of Duty, because, to me, that's what you guys are saying about this system. "Its fine. Just turn it off when it doesn't work." Hhhmmm.

 

Good design is invisible, or to put it another way "when something is well-designed, you don't notice it's there and how easy it is to use."  The lock on system should address and deal with all situations, like I've said before. It should be seamless, and, just work. Sure, this might actually be impossible, and asking for the 'moon on a stick', but that doesn't mean they shouldn't strive for perfection.

 

Also, anyone saying that From Software believe their game is perfect, and they haven't made any design "mistakes", is kidding themselves. Creators are the worst critics, and I can easily imagine this debate has raged internally. I also believe that the lock-on system is probably about as good as they can get it with the other design choices they have made about the game, but that doesn't make it beyond criticism.

 

I just cannot fundamentally agree that video games should be seamless, bland experiences that get us from A to B as comfortably as possible sorry. A video game is not a toaster.

 

I fully believe that From intends their lock on system to be awkward in many circumstances. I believe it is because they want to inject an element of chaos and uncertainty into their encounters. They want to induce panic in the unwary player and they want to reward those who have mastered the system and recognised the sort of tricks they want to pull.

 

It is much more interesting in my opinion to wonder why From have chosen to make the decisions they have than it is to assume that they made a mistake or got it wrong.

 

 

[Jamie John]

Hmm, the Elden Ring thread is 'Hot' and I haven't checked it for an hour - what's happened?! DLC announcement? A sub 5 minute run? A hidden boss that's only just been unearthed?

 

*Opens thread*

 

🥲

[Hawklord]

What does Lock On do?

 

It locks your aim on to things

 

What? All the time?

 

No, only when you choose

 

That's just stupid and clearly wrong. What a poor design

 

 

Spoiler

🙃 😛

 

[Tomdominer]

I'll get my coat.