Avengers: Endgame - BIG SPOILERS TOPIC - You have been warned!

[NexivRed]

Because it seems in Marvel world changing the past doesn’t change the future, and changing the present doesn’t change the past. 

 

Except it does, because it creates alternate realities when it suits the storyline. So now there are pasts that some of the main characters have lived that we never saw, but they don’t affect the characters we see because they’ve lived that point a certain way and it can never be changed. 

 

[Kodamarama]

Loved Miek eating pizza. 

[NexivRed]

@Steely yes, there are split timelines for various characters it seems. Messy af. None of their past actions when time travelling apparently affect where they ended up. 

 

The how is answered by the GPS device. 

 

 

TBH I’m so disappointed with such a cop out when it didn’t need to happen that way, that I don’t think I care about it any more. 

[And]

1 minute ago, Kodamarama said:

Loved Miek eating pizza. 

 

Oh god, yes. Those 2 need to get into another film. 

[Hexx]

4 minutes ago, Steely said:

I took the Ancient ones little demo as an explanation that going back and taking the stones, they cause branching timelines, this is why Captain America goes back to put the stones back in place to bring order to the universe... But what I dont understand is the how, because if you cant change the past, how can you change the past of a branching timeline to bring them back on course? And surely simply by visiting a parallel timeline and effecting anything in it creates a branching timeline.

 

So there will always be a timeline where Loki escapes because you cant change the past... a Timeline with no Thanos... etc etc

 

 

So there must now be split timelines for every single visit to the visit they made, even down to Hawkeye, the timeline where his daugher thought she heard her dad at the door, it might not be a vastly different timeline to the one we have rode in any other way whatsoever, but its different for her so its a new timeline.

 

So all of these timelines got created, everywhere they dropped in on, for the sake of there current and conscious selves that we have been on the journey with. I mean if they are going full hog and just looking after themselves, they could just time jump back to the start of the plan and say, nice one guys we did it, Natasha, Tony can you come with us...

 

Then you have Natasha and Tony in your present timeline without the memory of that day and battle then a seperate one where the remaining Avengers are just stood around confused, thinking 'nice one, you guys did it but now we have to live in  timeline without Tasha and Tony and we dont complete the plan.' But I suppose that would be far more selfish, the initial creation of timelines is to save billions of people...(Even though they could have doomed Billions of people further down the line of these split.)

 

 

Fuck me, someone really needs to draw me a diagram...

 

The ancient one said (basically) you'll make a new timeline, and it'll be horrid without the stone.

Bruce said they've bring the stone back. 

It's still a new timeline, but it's not horrid

 

Is how I read it.

[freezycold]

I think the ancient one was saying that time exists as a specific configuration/whole entity. So was Bruce. It’s not as simple as linear cause and effect. They even say it doesn’t work like how Back to the Future works. 

 

The only way to win and close up any potential weird timeline business is to send Thanos back.

[whizzo]

19 minutes ago, NexivRed said:

Cap took four time travel vials. One for him and one for Tony to get back. That leaves two to take the stones back, but they belonged in three different years. 

Hank Pym is no longer dead. 

[whizzo]

12 minutes ago, NexivRed said:

Because it seems in Marvel world changing the past doesn’t change the future, and changing the present doesn’t change the past. 

 

Except it does, because it creates alternate realities when it suits the storyline. So now there are pasts that some of the main characters have lived that we never saw, but they don’t affect the characters we see because they’ve lived that point a certain way and it can never be changed. 

 

Example?

[MardiganX]

Does the Ancient Ones diagram not explain it all? The branching timelines exist as disrupted parallel timelines unless the stones are placed back EXACTLY where they are supposed to be in the main (and only one that matters) timeline, which then erases the disrupted parallel ones? So when Cap completes his final mission he effectively erases all the disrupted parallel timelines that were potentially created when the Avengers took the stones.

 

It still leaves the Loki escape quite open though as far as a potential parallel timeline that could still exist because nobody re-captures Loki and puts him back where he is in the main timeline. THAT is the only time travel madness that is left relatively open for me and while all of it can be ripped apart if various perspectives are taken, the Loki escape and the new timeline that is potentially created there feels very deliberate.

[MardiganX]

12 minutes ago, freezycold said:

I think the ancient one was saying that time exists as a specific configuration/whole entity. So was Bruce. It’s not as simple as linear cause and effect. They even say it doesn’t work like how Back to the Future works. 

 

The only way to win and close up any potential weird timeline business is to send Thanos back.

 

Yes, potentially. But not with the retained knowledge of his encounter during Endgame. Thanos in main / MCU 2014 timeline is not erased when he travels forward and dies at the end of Endgame. They only logical explanation based on how events unfold is that the Thanos who travels forward from 2014 is from one of the disrupted parallel timelines and so his death doesn't impact the Thanos from the main / MCU timeline that goes on to get his massive head chopped off. That is further validated by the fact that MCU timeline Nebula kills the disrupted parallel timeline version of herself and isn't affected.

 

I referred to this earlier that the Thanos in Endgame is not the assured, confident Thanos we have in IW. He is blindingly arrogant and this is shown in how he says 'I am inevitable' simply because he saw it on the Nebula recording. IW Thanos earned the right to say that through his struggle to get the stones, murder Gamora and everything else but Endgame Thanos is just driven by pure arrogance and his believe that he must be right.

[freezycold]

Yes, Captain America undoes all the weird timelines, and the ONLY way that happens is if thanos wins, and they lose that one time. That sets them off on the whole journey. If Thanks hadn’t won, the time would have been messed up, and Dr Strange did what he did to protect time as a whole.

 

[freezycold]

Also look at the difference in how Thanos weilds the infinity gauntlet in Endgame as his 2014 self vs how he uses it in Infinity War as his more experienced 2017 self.

[And]

16 minutes ago, freezycold said:

The only way to win and close up any potential weird timeline business is to send Thanos back.

 

Derp

[MardiganX]

12 minutes ago, freezycold said:

Also look at the difference in how Thanos weilds the infinity gauntlet in Endgame as his 2014 self vs how he uses it in Infinity War as his more experienced 2017 self.

 

See my Edit...

 

I referred to this earlier that the Thanos in Endgame is not the assured, confident Thanos we have in IW. He is blindingly arrogant and this is shown in how he says 'I am inevitable' simply because he saw it on the Nebula recording. IW Thanos earned the right to say that through his struggle to get the stones, murder / sacrifice Gamora and everything else but Endgame Thanos is just driven by pure arrogance and his believe that he must be right.

 

the difference is because Endgame Thanos is immature, arrogant and blinded by what he sees in the Nebula recording. Endgame Thanos is NOT the same Thanos that we get in IW. 

[MardiganX]

And if you needed further confirmation, while quite subtle, the new gauntlet that is created is right handed... while the gauntlet that Thanos had built for him in IW was left handed. IW Thanos is unstoppable not because he has learned from his failure in Endgame but because he is wielding the full powered gauntlet that he had created himself and because of the struggles he went through to obtain the stones, specifically having to sacrifice Gamora.

[Tourist]

My main takeaway was that Spider-Man and Ant-Man are the best movies and characters in the MCU.

[freezycold]

IW Thanos is indeed much stronger because of the events that he had been through since 2014. They teach him how to wield the stones much more effectively.

 

In the 2021 fight, 2014 Thanos experiences the power of all the stones for the first time and doesn’t know how to use them in quite the same nuanced way. He has to rip out the power stone to smack Marvel.

 

The events of IW teach him stone by stone how to use each power. That’s why he knows he can just turn people to rubber or things to bubbles, or alter time. 

[MardiganX]

15 minutes ago, freezycold said:

Yes, Captain America undoes all the weird timelines, and the ONLY way that happens is if thanos wins, and they lose that one time. That sets them off on the whole journey. If Thanks hadn’t won, the time would have been messed up, and Dr Strange did what he did to protect time as a whole.

 

 

But Endgame Thanos doesn't need to be sent back for that to happen. IW Thanos is a different person or more accurately a less mature / developed version of that character, which they clearly demonstrate with the Nebula dynamic. 

[MardiganX]

2 minutes ago, freezycold said:

IW Thanos is indeed much stronger because of the events that he had been through since 2014. They teach him how to wield the stones much more effectively.

 

In the 2021 fight, 2014 Thanos experiences the power of all the stones for the first time and doesn’t know how to use them in quite the same nuanced way. He has to rip out the power stone to smack Marvel.

 

The events of IW teach him stone by stone how to use each power. That’s why he knows he can just turn people to rubber or things to bubbles, or alter time. 

 

Agreed. But this knowledge of how to wield the stones is not a result of him losing in Endgame. It is because IW Thanos has followed his full path to his destiny, while Endgame Thanos has simply taken a short cut and get fucked up as a result!

[freezycold]

He’s a more mature version of Thanos.

[freezycold]

Also Steve has to replace the stones so that Thanos can find them.

[Thor]

37 minutes ago, Steely said:

Fuck me, someone really needs to draw me a diagram...

Agreed! Tempted to have a go myself. 

 

Freezycold is clearly off the reservation!  But the key point of his argument does have merit. If the stones have to go back, then surely so does Thanos. However, @freezycold, Thanos remembering his Endgame fight in IW ... you are wrong. Absolutely wrong on that. 

 

I can understand Nexiv's disappointment, because it does mean fractured timelines. The one that really sticks out is Loki buggering off with the Tesseract. But I think this is deliberate by Marvel, it opens up new possibilities for future movies. 

 

One thing I've thought of. With Cap putting all the stones back, that leaves the future after 2024 as a future for the universe with no Infinity Stones. Are we going to wind up with a Doctor Strange sequel where he doesn't have the time stone?

[MardiganX]

Endgame Thanos is from a disrupted parallel timeline that gets created as soon as Rhodey and Nebula go to retrieve the Power Stone. That Thanos being killed has no impact on IW Thanos who always does what he does exactly as we have seen in all the MCU movies. The disrupted parallel timeline that Endgame Thanos comes from is erased when Cap returns the power stone.

 

Picture the Ancient Ones presentation but with the power stone being removed and the Thanos in that new timeline jumping into the main MCU timeline in 2023 (5 years forward from end of IW puts is in 2023 not 2024). For this to work we have to accept that Endgame Thanos can jump forward to the main timeline rather than just the future from his disrupted timeline but for me that fits perfectly with all the timeline rules that Endgame sets out and the fact the Quantum Realm is a huge black box that can do whatever Marvel needs it to do

[Steely]

The possibility of a movie where they assess how the other timelines are effected by what they did, does sound pretty good! Most Characters just wont care, like the Gardians and Spiderman, Antman and we can plow along with there adventures.

 

Others like Hulk and Dr Strange will want to restore some order and feel guilt if they know other timelines are a mess, a movie where Dr Strange takes on the Loki timeline sounds pretty good to me. 

 

I really hope the next Dr Strange movie tackles this and at the same time closes the door for any future time travel shenanigans like puts a big fuck off padlock on the quantum realm, it just effects the jeopardy of things too much going forward, it needs to be a one time deal.

 

Really though, the only stone Steve really should have replaced was the timestone, the rest are all in the hands of or in reach of bad guys. The timelines were distrupted anyway might aswell keep some power away from the big bads!

[MardiganX]

5 minutes ago, Steely said:

The possibility of a movie where they assess how the other timelines are effected by what they did, does sound pretty good! Most Characters just wont care, like the Gardians and Spiderman, Antman and we can plow along with there adventures.

 

Others like Hulk and Dr Strange will want to restore some order and feel guilt if they know other timelines are a mess, a movie where Dr Strange takes on the Loki timeline sounds pretty good to me. 

 

Really though only one Steve really should have replaced was the timestone, the rest are all the hands of or in reach of bad guys. The timelines were distrupted anyway might aswell keep some power away from the big bads!

 

But, if we accept Cap replaces the stones to exactly where they are supposed to be to allow the natural events that we have already seen play out in the MCU movies then all those disrupted parallel timelines are erased. That is exactly how the Ancient One shows Bruce it working. At the end of Endgame the stones are with the Avengers and when Cap replaces the stones he effectively ensures that Marvel remain the greatest movie making franchise in history

 

The only caveat is the Loki escape which is very deliberate and is no doubt going to lead into some of the Phase 4 stuff. 

[Super Craig]

2 hours ago, freezycold said:

IW Thanos is indeed much stronger because of the events that he had been through since 2014. They teach him how to wield the stones much more effectively.

 

In the 2021 fight, 2014 Thanos experiences the power of all the stones for the first time and doesn’t know how to use them in quite the same nuanced way. He has to rip out the power stone to smack Marvel.

 

The events of IW teach him stone by stone how to use each power. That’s why he knows he can just turn people to rubber or things to bubbles, or alter time. 

 

He rips out the Power Stone to use because Captain Marvel is preventing him from using the Gauntlet. He couldn't clench his fist or snap his fingers at the time.

[Stig]

26 minutes ago, freezycold said:

Also Steve has to replace the stones so that Thanos can find them.

 

No he doesn't, that's not what The Accient One is getting at. She saying if you take the stones out of one time line to save another you leave the time line you took them from vulnerable. 

 

Everything with Thanos has already happened regardless of if the stones are returned or not. The stones need to be returned though to stop the likes or Dormandu taking over the other timelines created when the stones are removed.

[And]

The obvious flaw in trying to argue you need to send Thanos back to 2014 so it all plays out is that you're sending the Thanos that has seen all that has happened and now knows exactly where all the stones are, so he goes directly to Vermir and kills Gamora, she never meets Quill, GoG never happens, so he can get the power stone from Morag/quill/whoever.

Then off to Asgard and trashes it and takes the Aether from Padme and the Tesseract from the vault where its taken after AA, thus fucking up Thor and Loki's stories.  Then he goes straight to earth and gets the 2 from there, with the mind stone still presumably in the staff, and so none of what happens after say the end of Avengers Assemble and Thor2 actually happens, no vision, no wakandan integration, no red witch etc

And so none of the things leading up to endgame happen like that, so in turn the post infinity war guys, they can't go back in time to subsequently bring Old nebula back to the Future to take Thanos and army forwards in time to then go back in time to use his future knowledge from taking them out of the picture making sure he cant go forwards in time and so on in a loop.

 

Stark uses the glove to remove Thanos from the present, the glove is NOT just Time travel, it affects reality. 

Thanos' snap changed reality to kill 50% of life, Hulks snap Unkills (not a real word) 50% of life, Stark's snap changes reality to destroy Thanos in the Present. 

 

 

 

Also - can we pin down some years here for consistency? 

2012 - Avengers assemble - battle of new york

2014 - Thanos and his army are from this year, just as GoG1 starts

2019 - events of Infinity war 

2024 - 5 years later, events of Endgame. 

right?

 

I don't know where some people are pulling 2017 and 20121 and such from 

 

 

[freezycold]

Time isn’t a linear sequence of events. Viewed from a higher dimension it’s an object with a specific shape. Tony calculates a 3D representation of this higher dimensonal shape/object we see a diagram of. 

 

Thats how he knows what to do.

[linkster]

Anyway, how does he make a click sound with a metal glove, huh