Avengers: Endgame - BIG SPOILERS TOPIC - You have been warned!

[freezycold]

Nooooo, from 2014 Thanos' point of view he suddenly gets this message out of the blue that this thing he's been trying to do for ages but has had difficulty with finally dose actually happen. This presented him with a tantalising opportunity, and emboldened by the evidence just presented to him seems to sew the seeds of him succeeding as his grade destiny/fate and motivates him to enact that fate.  He deecides to follow the lead fate has handed him and go where destiny is taking him. After all fate led him to collecting all the stones and a future where he dies but his work is done. That's a satisfactory outcome for him. 

 

So he's like yep, hit it let's go to 2014 and make sure I fulfil my destiny, fate has clearly shown me that I win. He then encounters the Avengers for the first time and is overwhelmed by them, surprisingly he loses but he actually just gets sent back to 2014 to now go hunt for the stones which he knows is definitely possible and what he will do. He also knows he'll have run ins again with the Avengers and others. Thanos has seen that he was successful and so he's just following fate, that's why in Infinity War he spouts so much about running from fate/him is pointless. He's much much more dismissive of everyone, like he isn't even worried because he knows he gets the stones and so seems to fight with much more confidence.

 

But what he doesn't know is that by getting the stones and succeeding, and then dying that he set off the later events that then lead to the 2014 message. The loop is closed every time. His choice to go to 2014 to ensure his destiny and fulfil his ambition even though he possibly didn't even have to ultimately what causes his downfall.

[Stig]

2 hours ago, Wroth said:

Was totally expecting him to throw out an ironic "I can do this all day" line at that point.

 

Me too and similar to when he met himself and said "ah shit" I was expecting the other Cap to say "language"

 

I fucking loved it though and the endings for Tony and Steve were perfect. I'm very happy and satisfied with their conclusion. Yes I cried at Tony's death, his sacrifice deserved my tears dammit. The fade to black at the end too was just perfect. He finally got that dance

 

I also welled up when Steve squared up to Thanos' army and then all the other heroes and armies began to appear. Everything about it was epic and the goosebumps just got to me big time.

 

I think the fact that it was so different to IW really helped too. That film was non stop relentless but this had time to breathe, it had a great mixture of drama, comedy, action and even found time to throw in a time heist.

 

Best moments were Cap wielding Mjolnir like a total badass and then finally getting to say "Avengers Assemble". We've waiting ages to see it and it did not disappoint. 

 

Seeing some of the older films but from different perspectives was really cool and Loki doing one with the Tesseract was very interesting, leaving it open for some future Loki stuff maybe. Except he's still evil Loki and not the one that developed over the course of the 4 films he was in. Cap getting into the lift in the past was a cool moment too, a nice call back to TWS.

 

Like others I was worried that just throwing in time travel would make it too easy to retcon everything but they did a great job of handling it and I was not expecting the curve ball of Nebula present linking with Nebula past. That played out really well and also managed to bring Thanos back in to the mix as I was unsure how they'd do that.

 

There were just so many good comedy moments to list but some of my favourites were Korg getting trolled on Fortnite, Thor turning into The Dude and Scott Lang in general.

 

I think the way Captain Marvel was handled was spot on too, she had issues elsewhere to contend with, Earth wasn't her priority until she was needed. There was no need for her to be there until there was. That worked fine for me.

 

Watching Thanos getting decapitated and dusted in the same film was ultra satisfying too.

 

45 minutes ago, linkster said:

I missed the rage. Hulk is probably my favourite character. The line in Assemble about 'I'm always angry' just gets me every time. The issue I had with what they did here was they just ignored that entire aspect of his character, which I think was a real shame.

 

I did too, I missed how he didn't get to redeem himself after chickening out in Infinity War. If they knew he wasnt going to have this big come back in this, they should have done it at the end of IW. That way they still get to give the Hulk a big moment and then could have still gone with BannerHulk for this. I think that was my only disappointment really.

 

It was a fitting end to 10 years of these characters and other than Thor, who we may see in GOTG3, I think that's 100% it for our original 6. Two dead, two retired, Thor going off to find himself and Banner managing to control the Hulk, leaveing him to have a relatively normal life.

 

I honestly came away feeling like, if they didn't release another MCU film for a good 5+ years I'd be ok with that. I was that satisfied that I'd be happy for a break. Obviously I know that's not happening and I will continue to watch them but other than Gamora, everything else was nicely wrapped up.

[freezycold]

ALSO!

Remember that bit near the end of Inifity War when Captain America is grabbing the gauntlet and pushing back against Thanos? Watching back in 2017 it seems like for a moment Captain America is holding his own against Thanos, and Thanos has this maybe surprised look on his face before just twatting Steve away like he's nothing. If my this-isn't-the-first-time-they've-fought theory is true, I now see this bit in a whole new light. When he gives that look to Steve, Thanos isn't surprised that Captain America is able to "stand up" to him. I think he was actually puzzled at the huge difference in strength between what he was expecting (the worthy Captain America he faced in 2021 who fucked him up fairly well for a bit) and what he got (the Captain America who is now in front of him in 2017 Wakanda and comparatively weak). I now think maybe Thanos' look is more of surprise or bemusement at how Captain America is more of a curiosity.

 

Perhaps same with Scarlet Witch. In Endgame, the first time Thanos meets her he acts like she's unimportant, saying something like "I have no idea who you are." Much to his surprise, she then proceeds to fully fuck him up harder than anyone else to the point where he had to panic order orbital bombardment. From his encounter with her he now knows to treat her with caution. We see this in Infinity War the second time they meet. He walks straight up to her and fully infinity stones zaps her with all he's got, he ain't messing. Again I think 'beating' Wanda here and getting the stones probably further convinces him his destiny is unfolding and he goes right for the snap ASAP,  falling right into his own trap.

[Stig]

Nah, if the Thanos in IW knew about them and the events of Endgame he'd just kill them all straight up when he had the stones.

 

This Thanos is from before IW cause he travels forward in time and skips everything that IW Thanos did. He knows nothing of what happened between when he picks up present Nebula and blowing up Avengers headquarters other than what present Nebula has seen and heard.

[freezycold]

I’m sure of it. Thanos in Infinity War had knowledge of the Avengers. He’d fought them three years before. His approach to them is totally different in each movie.

[NexivRed]

51 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

Nah, if the Thanos in IW knew about them and the events of Endgame he'd just kill them all straight up when he had the stones.

 

 

Kill them at which point? In IW? He doesn’t need to. He knows whatever happens he succeeds. He just doesn’t realise in 2014 that they undo it all. He only realised that in the End Game battle. That’s why he sits down so defeated. He realises the loop is closed. 

 

After IW, Thanos was my favourite character. I loved his attitude to things. 

In this movie he was a dick. I hated him. Now I realise why; Brolin played him completely differently. He had none of the calm, contemplation he had in IW. He was just outright ruthless. 

[NexivRed]

Tony had to have snapped them all back rather than killed them, otherwise Thanos would have ceased to exist in 2014. 

 

As for Nebula, I assume she’s snapped back and repaired with no memory of what happened. 

 

In fact, this explains why Gamora is trying to steal the orb to double cross Thanos at the start of Guardians 1. In End Game she’s all for his plan, but meeting her future sister changes her mind. 

She’s not privy to the closed loop and Thanos needing to find all the stones and snap though, unlike every other Avenger. So she just sets out to try and prevent it the only way she knows how. 

 

Shit. That’s pretty clever writing. 

 

 

Edit:

Ah shit. And I just realised what gesture Dr Strange was giving Tony at the end. I was wondering what it meant. He was holding up one finger reminding him there’s just one way it will work so they’ll win.

My take on it any way. 

[NexivRed]

What I want to know is, not where did Loki go, but why did he come back? Only to then be carted off to Asgard in the final scenes of Avengers 1. Wonder what he got up to. 

[Thor]

13 hours ago, Benny said:

Agreed. Even more sad what puny Banner has done to him then. Valkyrie was right - I also prefer him one of either of the other two ways.

Just remembered something else to counter this. When Banner meets Valkyrie again, he calls her "Angry Girl". 

 

Furthermore, Banner in Endgame is confident, playful, has a sense of humour. He's markedly different to the fidgety, kinda socially awkward Banner we've had in all previous movies. 

 

Honestly I felt the handling of Banner/Hulk was really well done. 

 

 

[JPL]

4 hours ago, freezycold said:

Nooooo, from 2014 Thanos' point of view he suddenly gets this message out of the blue that this thing he's been trying to do for ages but has had difficulty with finally dose actually happen. This presented him with a tantalising opportunity, and emboldened by the evidence just presented to him seems to sew the seeds of him succeeding as his grade destiny/fate and motivates him to enact that fate.  He deecides to follow the lead fate has handed him and go where destiny is taking him. After all fate led him to collecting all the stones and a future where he dies but his work is done. That's a satisfactory outcome for him. 

 

So he's like yep, hit it let's go to 2014 and make sure I fulfil my destiny, fate has clearly shown me that I win. He then encounters the Avengers for the first time and is overwhelmed by them, surprisingly he loses but he actually just gets sent back to 2014 to now go hunt for the stones which he knows is definitely possible and what he will do. He also knows he'll have run ins again with the Avengers and others. Thanos has seen that he was successful and so he's just following fate, that's why in Infinity War he spouts so much about running from fate/him is pointless. He's much much more dismissive of everyone, like he isn't even worried because he knows he gets the stones and so seems to fight with much more confidence.

 

But what he doesn't know is that by getting the stones and succeeding, and then dying that he set off the later events that then lead to the 2014 message. The loop is closed every time. His choice to go to 2014 to ensure his destiny and fulfil his ambition even though he possibly didn't even have to ultimately what causes his downfall.

Some great readings of it in here now you’ve had time time absorb it. Especially this one above.

 

I’m going to keep mulling it over in my mind to make sure it all fits, but I definitely need to see it again.

 

What a brilliant ending.

[Mike]

If Tony sent them all back to 2014, wouldn’t he have needed to send Gamora back too so Thanos can sacrifice her for a stone?  She was with The Guardians at the end right?

[Super Craig]

No.

[JPL]

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

If Tony sent them all back to 2014, wouldn’t he have needed to send Gamora back too so Thanos can sacrifice her for a stone?  She was with The Guardians at the end right?

Nah. You might have missed it but Star Lord was looking for her on the map when Thor gets on the ship and he quickly swipes the screen away.

[MansizeRooster]

Oh my god, that original Ant Man helmet.

 

The pirates really didn't waste time in getting this on the high seas.

 

Going to see it again in the cinema on Saturday.

[Mike]

Ah of course!  Late night and early morning!  Then I’m all for the everyone sent back to 2014! 

[mdn2]

I enjoyed it a lot, but preferred Infinity War. It felt like there was too much going on and yet at times parts of it felt drawn out. I never got that with IW. 

 

Still, it was an incredible achievement and worked far better than it had any right to. 

[Stig]

4 hours ago, NexivRed said:

 

Kill them at which point? In IW? He doesn’t need to. He knows whatever happens he succeeds. He just doesn’t realise in 2014 that they undo it all. He only realised that in the End Game battle. That’s why he sits down so defeated. He realises the loop is closed. 

 

You and Freezycold are talking as if IW Thanos already fought the Avengers but he doesnt act like that in IW at all in my opinion. If somehow IW Thanos knew what was to come because he was send back by Tony, he knows hes doesn't succeed and they undo it and hes just in an endless loop where ultimately he loses. That's why he'd kill them, to stop them undoing it.

 

Banner even say that timetravel doesn't work like the movies and that changing the past doesnt change what their future. Rhodey suggest going back and killing Thanos but Banner says that won't change anything for them, so Tony doesn't need to send Thanos back.

[Super Craig]

Thanos knew who the Avengers were in 2014 because of what happened in 2012. That's also why he knows about Tony Stark in Infinity War.

[Stig]

4 minutes ago, Super Craig said:

Thanos knew who the Avengers were in 2014 because of what happened in 2012. That's also why he knows about Tony Stark in Infinity War.

 

Exactly. He's informed about them when we first glimpse him in the post credit scene of the first Avengers.

[Stig]

I wonder who has the stones now though? I'm guessing Strange and that Dr.Strange 2 will revolve around them being hidden. Ether that or Wander destroyed them.

 

*edit*

For some reason I forgot about Cap taking them back 

[linkster]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

Just remembered something else to counter this. When Banner meets Valkyrie again, he calls her "Angry Girl". 

 

Furthermore, Banner in Endgame is confident, playful, has a sense of humour. He's markedly different to the fidgety, kinda socially awkward Banner we've had in all previous movies. 

 

Honestly I felt the handling of Banner/Hulk was really well done. 

Isnt the appeal of these characters that fans relate to them because of their ‘flaws’ though? 

 

I was going to post it’d be like Bruce Wayne becoming his dad, but then I remembered the end of TDKR 

[Super Craig]

10 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

I wonder who has the stones now though? I'm guessing Strange and that Dr.Strange 2 will revolve around them being hidden. Ether that or Wander destroyed them.

 

Captain America took the stones and the hammer back to their original locations at the end.

[Stig]

Just now, Super Craig said:

 

Captain America took the stones and the hammer back to their original locations at the end.

 

Fucking hell, DOH of course he did. I've had very little sleep.

[NexivRed]

36 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

 

You and Freezycold are talking as if IW Thanos already fought the Avengers but he doesnt act like that in IW at all in my opinion. If somehow IW Thanos knew what was to come because he was send back by Tony, he knows hes doesn't succeed and they undo it and hes just in an endless loop where ultimately he loses. That's why he'd kill them, to stop them undoing it.

 

Banner even say that timetravel doesn't work like the movies and that changing the past doesnt change what their future. Rhodey suggest going back and killing Thanos but Banner says that won't change anything for them, so Tony doesn't need to send Thanos back.

 

Does he know he doesn’t succeed though. Banner clicks the vanished back before Thanos arrives, and he doesn’t know who’s gone and who’s not. 

 

If 2014 Thanos dies when he’s dust, as does Gamora etc, then that’s an enormous Paradox. Huge plot hole. 

 

He is completely different in IW. Philosophical. And some of his lines make more sense. He would continue his search for the stones regardless, as it’s his destiny. That’s why he gives his speech about it. 

[freezycold]

46 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

 

Exactly. He's informed about them when we first glimpse him in the post credit scene of the first Avengers.

 

Yes, he finds out about the Avengers in 2012 via the whole Loki/NY thing. That’s why the 2014 Thanos says he’ll honestly enjoy destroying Earth, because they had dared mess with his plans by fighting back.

 

Then 2014 Thanos gets smacked hard by them, and bested by Tony. This is why the second time Thanos encounters Tony in 2017 in infinity War he tells him he’s earned his respect. He’ll save half of earth’s population. Thanos knows just how hard they’ve tried to stop everything and how hard they fought him before. 

 

I think this is why Thanos doesn’t even fight them with his armour and his sword in Infinity War. He has evidence that with the stones he’s so much more powerful than pretty much all of the avengers that they pose no threat. That’s why he’s so arrogant and calm in Infinity War. Also it’s his second time wielding the stones. This time he knows how to wield them against the avengers much more effectively. Also probably why he’s so shocked by Thor’s strength at the end of IW. Thor was paradoxically weaker in 2021.

 

 

[Kodamarama]

So, uh, how does Captain America get the aether back inside Jane Foster? 

[SimonC]

RE: the SnapBack to 5 years earlier theory, pretty such that’s incorrect. In a scene right at the end ant man and wasp are sitting on the porch with his daughter and she’s still the 5 year older one rather than the younger one from the last ant man film. 

[And]

Re: The Hulk, 

I think bannerhulk is the best outcome for the character. Banner had become a bit whiny and pathetic in the last 2 films as he feared being the hulk. Hulk improves but still a bit one dimensional. 

Remember in AA when he comes out with one of the best moments of the film in his “I’m always angry”? 

The Bannerhulk allows the power of Hulk but the brains of Banner. Both of which are required for the plot, but it also means that he becomes a happier character, free from the rage and the fear of hurting people, and that’s his happy ending- he’s able to live with himself and the ‘other guy’. 

 

I love the Hulk so I’m glad he got some sort of resolution. Sailing into the sunset with Nat would have been better though. 

[Broker]

RE: Thanos being snapped back. It doesn’t work. Future Gamora is fully dead, which means the Gamora the Guardians are searching for is the past one who didn’t get snapped back so isn’t in the original timeline so it doesn’t work. Past Nebula is killed. Past Thanos literally changes his plans to killing everyone on earth. So what they defeated him and he decided instead of continuing with his new plan to kill them out of rage he would just wait five years and die? The time travel is a fun way to do this movie, it doesn’t make any sense and doesn’t really need to. 

[Super Craig]

3 minutes ago, SimonC said:

RE: the SnapBack to 5 years earlier theory, pretty such that’s incorrect. In a scene right at the end ant man and wasp are sitting on the porch with his daughter and she’s still the 5 year older one rather than the younger one from the last ant man film. 

 

Also, Hulk was specifically told to just bring back the dusted people back and nothing else.