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7 minutes ago, BarryL85 said:

If it isn't there at launch i'm sure Sony will add it in. Quick resume looks to be a really convenient feature for next gen.

 

That's really just wishful thinking at the moment. This kind of stuff takes time to develop/test/etc. The backbone network upgrade required for PS5 was done midway the PS4 cycle just to give you an idea of the timescale at play here. The HTML PS Store was introduced during the PS3 era and "served" us way too long. Even if they go ahead and 'patch it in' you're looking at a 2 years wait I reckon.

 

Sometimes, a console simply doesn't have a feature that its competitor does have. All these mental gymnastics to somehow claim parity are quite insane.

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At this point, I think it's more likely that the PS5 doesn't have the multiple suspend states Quick Resume. I don't think it's something Sony have considered. They've spent their money on a faster drive (which presumably means cold loads can be quicker in the first place - proof to be seen yet, obvs) and they've got these Activities and things to load you into bookmarks and playlists faster. There's less storage space for them to play with in the first place, so I'm not sure they're going to spend that on a selection of save states - I just don't think they've put that in.

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5 minutes ago, Quexex said:

Yup and technically speaking it's relatively easy to implement as it's just a RAM dump to the SSD. 

I think this underestimates how hard it is to dump from and restore a game to memory; given the low level hardware access developers typically enjoy on consoles, what do you do with CPU cache or in-progress GPU calculations? I'd actually love to read a breakdown of how it's done.

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I don't have any in depth knowledge of how this stuff works, but it has definitely seemed like there are things that you can't just fix mid-generation without putting a huge amount of effort in. If you look at the difference in install times on PS4 and Xbox One, Sony put a lot of thought into installing games quickly from disk, and this worked briliiantly (at least at the beginning), and Xbox has never really been able to fix this, or allow you to play your games while the update installs in the background.

 

Similarly, gameplay recording is just miles ahead on PS4, with no silly 2 minute limits, or whatever. It's constantly recording the last 15 mins and not even a hardware refresh or the One X got Xbox to the same level.

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10 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

I think this underestimates how hard it is to dump from and restore a game to memory; given the low level hardware access developers typically enjoy on consoles, what do you do with CPU cache or in-progress GPU calculations? I'd actually love to read a breakdown of how it's done.

Aye, my point was that it's not that hard to do. We discussed it on PS4 however the issue there was the speed at which it would take to dump a RAM image to the HDD then read it back. If it's not on the roadmap at this point then it would be march at the earliest 'if' sony see it as a priority. 

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11 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

I think this underestimates how hard it is to dump from and restore a game to memory; given the low level hardware access developers typically enjoy on consoles, what do you do with CPU cache or in-progress GPU calculations? I'd actually love to read a breakdown of how it's done.

 

Consequence of the underlying virtualisation infrastructure, presumably. I mean, I can suspend/resume a docker container *at any point* and it has no idea.

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Just now, Quexex said:

Aye, my point was that it's not that hard to do. We discussed it on PS4 however the issue there was the speed at which it would take to dump a RAM image to the HDD then read it back. If it's not on the roadmap at this point then it would be march at the earliest 'if' sony see it as a priority. 

 

I think the point is it might be exactly that hard to do.

March seems like an insanely optimistic idea of developing something like this from scratch.

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Just now, footle said:

 

Consequence of the underlying virtualisation infrastructure, presumably. I mean, I can suspend/resume a docker container *at any point* and it has no idea.

I hope there's some GDC talks about the details down the line, I'm really interested in how they can abstract away from the hardware without any big performance losses; I mean, how much direct low level access do you even have these days?

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I remember when the Xbox One was coming out and we all wondered why Microsoft was using a hypervisor and generally cluttering up the approach to the OS, is this that approach starting to pay off?

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7 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

I think this underestimates how hard it is to dump from and restore a game to memory; given the low level hardware access developers typically enjoy on consoles, what do you do with CPU cache or in-progress GPU calculations? I'd actually love to read a breakdown of how it's done.

 

I have no idea how any of it works but surely this is down to Sony to provide tools and not the developers?

 

17 minutes ago, Cyhwuhx said:

 

That's really just wishful thinking at the moment. This kind of stuff takes time to develop/test/etc. The backbone network upgrade required for PS5 was done midway the PS4 cycle just to give you an idea of the timescale at play here. The HTML PS Store was introduced during the PS3 era and "served" us way too long. Even if they go ahead and 'patch it in' you're looking at a 2 years wait I reckon.

 

Sometimes, a console simply doesn't have a feature that its competitor does have. All these mental gymnastics to somehow claim parity are quite insane.

 

With both being based on the same architecture I can't see a reason why something can't be implemented that the other has other than software constraints? Of course if it is an afterthought or being designed from scratch it takes time but if they realise something is worth having they could make it happen if it is a priority to them.

 

Anyway, I truly have no idea how any of this stuff is designed or implemented etc. I'm just hopeful it's possible if it does indeed become a feature that I enjoy on the XSX i'd like it on PS5.

 

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3 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

 

I think the point is it might be exactly that hard to do.

March seems like an insanely optimistic idea of developing something like this from scratch.

I imagine it could be dependent on some fundamental decisions about the system architecture too; it may be that it just can't be done.

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7 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

I don't have any in depth knowledge of how this stuff works, but it has definitely seemed like there are things that you can't just fix mid-generation without putting a huge amount of effort in. If you look at the difference in install times on PS4 and Xbox One, Sony put a lot of thought into installing games quickly from disk, and this worked briliiantly (at least at the beginning), and Xbox has never really been able to fix this, or allow you to play your games while the update installs in the background.

 

Similarly, gameplay recording is just miles ahead on PS4, with no silly 2 minute limits, or whatever. It's constantly recording the last 15 mins and not even a hardware refresh or the One X got Xbox to the same level.

 

As a counterpoint, the PS4 didn't have quick-resume at launch, but got it as a firmware update.

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1 minute ago, BarryL85 said:

 

I have no idea how any of it works but surely this is down to Sony to provide tools and not the developers?

 

 

With both being based on the same architecture I can't see a reason why something can't be implemented that the other has other than software constraints? Of course if it is an afterthought or being designed from scratch it takes time but if they realise something is worth having they could make it happen if it is a priority to them.

 

Anyway, I truly have no idea how any of this stuff is designed or implemented etc. I'm just hopeful it's possible if it does indeed become a feature that I enjoy on the XSX i'd like it on PS5.

 

 

Because running on even exactly the same hardware doesn't mean they are similar at all in terms of features. These are features provided by some combination of bios, drivers and operating system (on top of hardware capabilities). So whilst yes it could be done on either, if Sony haven't coded their system (lets say OS for want of a single term) this way from day one it might simply be impossible without a complete rewrite.

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Just now, Spacehost said:

I imagine it could be dependent on some fundamental decisions about the system architecture too; it may be that it just can't be done.

It maybe, but given how the profilers and crash reporting worked on PS4 it's not in the realm of impossibility - both of these systems allow you to dump all the data from the relevant caches, RAM etc. The crash reporting system has been in place since PS3 and was developed by RJ they guy who designed the amiga (iirc)

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1 minute ago, BarryL85 said:

I have no idea how any of it works but surely this is down to Sony to provide tools and not the developers?

It would be entirely down to Sony, I'm just spitballing about architecture. Used to be you could get down to the metal and do operations on specific registers of the CPU, but if you can't sanely do that if the CPU also has to move a running game in and out of memory. I think.

 

I've not touched an actual devkit since the PS2 so I'm well out of touch on this stuff.

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1 minute ago, Quexex said:

It maybe, but given how the profilers and crash reporting worked on PS4 it's not in the realm of impossibility - both of these systems allow you to dump all the data from the relevant caches, RAM etc. The crash reporting system has been in place since PS3 and was developed by RJ they guy who designed the amiga (iirc)

You're talking about on a devkit though, right? You can't do full crashdumps on a retail unit I thought, because it doesn't have the resources spare to do so?

 

Anyway, the bit I'm having a hard time imagining is loading everything back in and kicking off execution exactly where it left off. I'd love a deep dive on that.

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14 minutes ago, SozzlyJoe said:

 

As a counterpoint, the PS4 didn't have quick-resume at launch, but got it as a firmware update.

 

Yeah. Both consoles have had lots of features added. It just seems certain things are harder to sort. I've got no idea what it would take to implement multiple quick resumes but I imagine turning it on would reduce the available storage for users, which might be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

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9 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

You're talking about on a devkit though, right? You can't do full crashdumps on a retail unit I thought, because it doesn't have the resources spare to do so?

You can and Sony have been doing it since late era PS3 - mostly OS crashes rather than game crashes on PS3. I believe that tech was part of the system level stuff for PS4 as well. Which is why when a game crashes you get the option to upload the core dumps.

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23 minutes ago, BarryL85 said:

 

I have no idea how any of it works but surely this is down to Sony to provide tools and not the developers?

 

 

With both being based on the same architecture I can't see a reason why something can't be implemented that the other has other than software constraints? Of course if it is an afterthought or being designed from scratch it takes time but if they realise something is worth having they could make it happen if it is a priority to them.

 

Anyway, I truly have no idea how any of this stuff is designed or implemented etc. I'm just hopeful it's possible if it does indeed become a feature that I enjoy on the XSX i'd like it on PS5.

 

 

The OS architecture/design is very different.  Something that is easy on one might be very hard on the other.

It's possible that MS's hypervisor approach has meant that resume stuff is much easier. It's kind of a built in thing most hypervisors and docker containers give you.

It's also meant BC can just be a cleaner implementation too.

 

The hypervisor approach might be why the OS was seen as a bit clunky at the start while PS4 was lean and fast.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

 

Yeah. Both consoles have had lots of features added. It just seems certain things are harder to sort. I've got no idea what it would take to implement multiple quick resumes but I imagine turning it on would reduce the available storage for users, which might be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

Absolutely, you are looking at a minimum of 14GB per state (depending on the OS memory footprint) so 5 could easily eat up 70GB in a worst case scenario obviously it may take less if some of those games are not filling all the RAM.

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Out of interest, how many games do you all have "on the go" at any one time that you would realistically want to quick resume between? 

 

I was mulling it over and actually I think 3 would be the absolute max I would get use out of as habitually I tend to have one big game, one indie game and rocket league that I would potentially move between. I can't ever see myself having, for example Spider-man AND God of War on the go at the same time, it just isn't the way I play. I suppose if quick switching was easier that my change my habits, I dunno.

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2 minutes ago, FiveFootNinja said:

Out of interest, how many games do you all have "on the go" at any one time that you would realistically want to quick resume between? 

None. I turned that feature off on the PS4 because it caused problems in some games. I can't believe there are pages in this thread dedicated to it.  

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15 minutes ago, Quexex said:

You can and Sony have been doing it since late era PS3 - mostly OS crashes rather than game crashes on PS3. I believe that tech was part of the system level stuff for PS4 as well. Which is why when a game crashes you get the option to upload the core dumps.

I knew the console could upload "crash data" but I assumed it would be a small subset of stuff- logs etc. If it's proper dumps that's pretty great.

 

Anyway; the only game I'm 100% interested in quick resume for is Destiny 2, but since it kicks you back to the main menu when you suspend the console anyway, it won't make a big difference. Would be great if I could fast load straight to the Tower though.

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It does 4K120. But it probably only does 480p, 720p, 1080p, 4K as the resolutions given Sony’s previous decisions. So if your monitor doesn’t take a 4K signal then you’d get 1080p at best.

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11 minutes ago, FiveFootNinja said:

Out of interest, how many games do you all have "on the go" at any one time that you would realistically want to quick resume between? 

 

I was mulling it over and actually I think 3 would be the absolute max I would get use out of as habitually I tend to have one big game, one indie game and rocket league that I would potentially move between. I can't ever see myself having, for example Spider-man AND God of War on the go at the same time, it just isn't the way I play. I suppose if quick switching was easier that my change my habits, I dunno.

Maybe that’s just it. You’ve built up that habit due to game switching being a bit clunky so far. I’m generally the same. One big single player game, one indie and one multiplayer, but since I’ve started using Gamepass, my habits are slowly changing, so I’m keen to try it out.

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  • gospvg changed the title to PlayStation 5 - See OP for link to Ultimate FAQ
  • Eighthours changed the title to PlayStation 5 - Next gen is here!

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