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PlayStation 5 - Next gen is here!


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7 hours ago, David Kenny said:

This is not quite what they are doing though. Sony are testing the games, but if issues are found the original developer will have to fix them. They're not asking the original developers to ensure their older games work.

 

I'm sure they'll all be leaping to fix their old games so people are playing those and not their new ones.

 

Sony benefit, they sell hardware, it's hard to see that, other than as an attempt to sell a few narrative sequels, it's worth anyone else doing so.

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When Microsoft made their last big blog post about backwards compatibility in May, they said that they were spending hundreds of thousands of hours testing Xbox One titles to make sure they run on the new system, and that thousands of the games already released for the Xbox One are known to work. I'm not sure where this idea that the two consoles will be fundamentally different in this regard has come from.*

 

Maybe people got their wires crossed about the fact that the next-generation performance boosts on the Series X will be done automatically through BC rather than needing to be patched in, but that only applies to the games that will run in the first place. That's not to downplay how big a deal that latter factor is - that massively increases the scale of the job they're undertaking.

 

*Sony's statement on the same thing is that "the overwhelming majority of the 4000+" etc. etc. will run which seems like basically the same thing.

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24 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

When Microsoft made their last big blog post about backwards compatibility in May, they said that they were spending hundreds of thousands of hours testing Xbox One titles to make sure they run on the new system, and that thousands of the games already released for the Xbox One are known to work. I'm not sure where this idea that the two consoles will be fundamentally different in this regard has come from.*

 

*Sony's statement on the same thing is that "the overwhelming majority of the 4000+" etc. etc. will run which seems like basically the same thing.

 

I think because Microsoft already have a comprehensive BC software solution in place that allows you to play thousands of titles right from the original Xbox, whereas Sony have nothing in place at all yet beyond cloud streaming - and have typically resorted to hardware BC.

 

Sony's messaging is also mixed in that while they say thousands of PS4 titles will be available at launch, they have also said that they will mandate any PS4 game released post-july will have to run (which suggests it's not automatic) and they haven't said anything about about PS3, PS2 or PS1 games 

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You think there’s not a Microsoft requirement that Xbox One software launching from here on out will also work in BC? I get that they’ve been more proactive on the topic but Sony and MS are singing from the same hymn sheet on what their consoles actually do with regards to BC.

 

For PS1, PS2 and PS3 I really think there’s not much to say. It’ll run exactly as many as the PS4 does, for the same technical and licensing reasons. You can’t even get a PS1 Classic on the Vita without a publisher’s explicit approval to sell it on that platform.

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I don't think that there is a Microsoft requirement because I think literally every title ever released for Xbox One will work, with machine-learning based HDR and 4k/60fps support.

 

Sony are still being quite patchy on it.

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1 minute ago, Alex W. said:

But you don’t have to “believe” when both companies have literally said how it will work.

 

Well they haven't though, have they? MS have explicitly laid it all out, Sony have said that the 'majority' of games will work, although no details of whether they will take advantage of the new hardware, and no details yet about whether you'll get PS5 versions of multiplatform PS4/5 released games.

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33 minutes ago, Isaac said:

I don't think that there is a Microsoft requirement because I think literally every title ever released for Xbox One will work, with machine-learning based HDR and 4k/60fps support.

 

Sony are still being quite patchy on it.


Only a subset will have HDR and higher resolution or framerate support. Those which they’ve baked it into their planning, or where they didn’t lock anyway.

I suppose there’s generally more chance of 4K on recent games just because the 1X exists and that was often the target, whereas the Pro tended to target 1440p, but meh.

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41 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

You think there’s not a Microsoft requirement that Xbox One software launching from here on out will also work in BC? I get that they’ve been more proactive on the topic but Sony and MS are singing from the same hymn sheet on what their consoles actually do with regards to BC.

 

If they’re singing from the same hymn sheet, it’s about 8 feet long and Microsoft are somewhere near the bottom while Sony are still looking for their reading glasses.

 

The differences, to me, are:

 

  • Microsoft have already done all of this and solved this problem on Xbox One X, where as Sony have no real track record for this in recent generations. Even their PS4 to PS4 Pro back compat solution was to turn off half their GPU so that the hardware was identical and only benefitted from faster clock speeds on the CPU.
  • Sony initially said they expect the majority of the top 100 games to work at launch and this figure hasn’t changed. They’ve updated the BC blog post and said they’re testing thousands of games before launch but have not updated the figure which will work at launch.
  • Developers have to ensure PS5 forward compatibility if they want to pass cert from June, which doesn’t inspire confidence in Sony’s emulation layer. Meanwhile, Microsoft had so much confidence in their tools they demoed them to DF when the One X launched.

 

It feels more like the Xbox 360 BC programme, which Microsoft added to slowly and only reached a few hundred games, rather than the Xbox One > One X > Series X where all Xbox One games just work.

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1 hour ago, Isaac said:

 

Well they haven't though, have they? MS have explicitly laid it all out, Sony have said that the 'majority' of games will work, although no details of whether they will take advantage of the new hardware, and no details yet about whether you'll get PS5 versions of multiplatform PS4/5 released games.


Not to keep harping on about this, but Microsoft have literally said that “thousands of”, not all, Xbox One games currently work, and Sony have said that “the vast majority of” all 4000+ PS5 games are expected to work. And third party publishers are already announcing free upgrades for PS4 games on PS5, much as they have for Xbox Series X. Sony understandably haven’t because none of their announced firstparty games for PS5 run on PS4.
 

Am I more optimistic about Microsoft’s approach to this than Sony’s? Yes, of course. But that doesn’t override the simple facts of the situation.
 

This is more an example of Sony’s usual inability to frame something effectively than a serious technical difference between two consoles that are basically exactly the same, acting as sequels for two consoles that are basically exactly the same.

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I should also stress that there’s no “emulation layer” at work here - both consoles are running in hardware backwards compatibility modes, with the Xbox Series X explicitly running at a higher clock than the original hardware and the PS5 at least providing that option.

 

If you want to talk differences, Microsoft are clearly using the simplicity that offers to free up their Advanced Technology group to develop enhancements like machine learning HDR, while Sony are, let’s be honest, using that simplicity to bother being backwards compatible at all.

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38 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

Am I more optimistic about Microsoft’s approach to this than Sony’s? Yes, of course. But that doesn’t override the simple facts of the situation.


So your point is essentially that we should take them at face value for something you don’t believe yourself?

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Just now, HarryBizzle said:


So your point is we should take them at face value for something you don’t believe yourself?


I’m saying that there’s no basis to assume a night and day difference in PS4 to PS5 versus Xbox One to Series X, when nothing about either company’s public statements or the simple nature of the hardware supports such a view.
 

There’s going to be enough of a difference in terms of Microsoft’s enhancements and the simple existence of Xbox 360 BC. I don’t need to imagine that Sony has somehow broken the inherent hardware-level compatibility that exists in their console, and is directly lying to the public and press about it across multiple interviews and press conferences. That’s absurd.

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That’s ok, because no one is suggesting that they’re lying. Just that “we expect most games to run and we’re testing lots” is not an iron clad commitment to having extensive BC and we have plenty of reasons to doubt them. 
 

If their late in the day testing reveals that, oh, actually 20% of games need a lot of work to run, I don’t have much faith in them to put that work in. 

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It’s the same commitment that Microsoft have made, using almost the same language (both in terms of numbers and how it’s actually implemented at a hardware level). You don’t have to take anyone at their word, even the laziest approach by Sony (by all accounts the one they’re taking) will give the results they’re claiming.
 

Given the inherent similarities in the consoles underneath and Microsoft’s strong focus on the value-add they’re going to bring to the table beyond just running the games, we’re going to be talking a difference of degrees in terms of what proportion of games run.

 

Edit - Short version, Microsoft are going to completely outdo Sony on BC, obviously, but not through any fundamental failure of BC on Sony’s side. They’ll simply outclass them.

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Meh! who cares about backwards compatibility I do not have time to play the games I already own let alone go back and play games again I have already completed. Just give me the new games I am not buying a PS5 to play games released on the PS4.

 

Having said that it would be nice to have the playlink games work on PS5 because the kids like playing them.

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Backwards compatibility means your PS4 games don’t have to be discarded unplayed/uncompleted though. 
 

[edit]

 

xbox one owners seem to think it’s pretty important.

Edited by SeanR
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Just now, SeanR said:

Backwards compatibility means your PS4 games don’t have to be discarded unplayed/uncompleted though. 

This. I've got a backlog on my PS4 and being able to play them on PS5 is going to make the switch more appealling.

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That's the thing, though, isn't it? There's quite a sliding scale of commitment possible. On one hand I can completely applaud MS's huge effort. On the other it's absolutely not a selling point for me and I've very rarely touched older games on my One X. PersonallyI think Sony's approach sounds about right. I'd prefer the resource put into other things on the whole.

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Just now, SeanR said:

Backwards compatibility means your PS4 games don’t have to be discarded unplayed/uncompleted though. 

 

I don't have a large collection of games to play currently only 3 waiting to be played.

 

Just read about the Xbox Hardware Subscription service I think it is a good idea pay a smaller amount per month and get an xbox/live included. Wonder if Sony will do something similar?

https://www.vg247.com/2020/06/25/xbox-series-x-all-access-subscription/

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1 hour ago, Alex W. said:

I should also stress that there’s no “emulation layer” at work here - both consoles are running in hardware backwards compatibility modes, with the Xbox Series X explicitly running at a higher clock than the original hardware and the PS5 at least providing that option.

 

Where aer you getting that from - because as far as I'm aware, Sony have absolutely not confirmed that at all. There was that slide in the Cerny presentation, but the voiceover Cerny gave at that point distinctly did not say "hardware backwards compatibility" - he said (in summary) - we're testing as the software is expected to run at higher clocks". He didn't say, or confirm, any standard BC modes at that point.

 

I think you;'re probably right - but we should be clear here that MS have confirmed it (games will run), while Sony (again, as far as I'm aware) have not (we hope games will run, we're testing) - we're just assuming it from a slide that was shown but not clearly, officially, discussed.

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6 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

Where aer you getting that from - because as far as I'm aware, Sony have absolutely not confirmed that at all. There was that slide in the Cerny presentation, but the voiceover Cerny gave at that point distinctly did not say "hardware backwards compatibility" - he said (in summary) - we're testing as the software is expected to run at higher clocks". He didn't say, or confirm, any standard BC modes at that point.

 

I think you;'re probably right - but we should be clear here that MS have confirmed it, while Sony (again, as far as I'm aware) have not - we're just assuming it from a slide that was shown but not clearly, officially, discussed.


It’s there in the presentation. He even remarks about how this means PS4 BC is locked in regardless of any future hardware revisions or cost reductions.

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Does what Cerny day about running at higher clocks mean that if you out a PS4 game in the PS5 and run it at "PS5 spec" then it may not run correctly as the hardware is so much more advanced so, by slowing the PS5 CPU, they can get games to run 100% correctly.

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I can’t stress enough that since the start of this generation, Sony and Microsoft have been selling you the same damn box, and they’re continuing to do it through the next generation. That’s not good for Sony in a lot of ways given Microsoft’s services game but it sets a baseline feature parity.

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3 minutes ago, Alex W. said:


It’s there in the presentation. He even remarks about how this means PS4 BC is locked in regardless of any future hardware revisions or cost reductions.

 

I'm going to have to watch it again then - because I can't remember that at all. Christ, BRING ME A COFFEE.

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