PlayStation 5 - Next gen is expensive

[JPL]

6 minutes ago, JoeK said:

 

I know. And no doubt I'll buy one as soon as the thing is out in the open.

 

But I won't be happy about it

And I’ll do exactly the same, even though I’m determined to wait for a design revision.

[Steven]

1 hour ago, Bojangle said:

Sony's backend is really not made for this, it's an absolute mess.

 

Oooer.

[Uncle Mike]

Turns out the Miles Morales bit is Cross Save. So that bit's cross save and free upgrade at least. What a confusing mess.

[Hitcher]

So how can that be cross save and not Spiderman? Unless MM is just an enhanced PS4 game running on the PS5!

[Mr. Gerbik]

51 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

Although the way CDPR have been talking about it is “start playing the PS4 version on PS5 at launch, get a patch on that for better performance, then continue the game with the PS5 update next year”. Which has a good chance of not actually being how it works? Did CDPR know that when they were telling everyone they could just get the PS4 version?

Well, the first patch is most likely exactly like an Enhanced/Pro patch. With those you usually get a choice between 4k pretty at 30FPS or performance mode 1080p at 60. Presumably they'll add an option for 4k/60 which the next-gen consoles should have no trouble with.

 

On Xbox the next-gen upgrade is like a patch - it will simply download newer, better assets on top of the existing game thanks to the whole smart delivery thing. Which is why you could call it a patch. On PS5, whoever said that on PS5 you probably have to download the entire game again is probably right.

 

So, in that case of course the same PS4 save would still work with the enhancement patch - that's just an everyday patch for the current-gen versions. Still the exact same game. The question is whether the saves are compatible with the PS5 version - and my point was that buying the PS5 version outright or upgrading for free from the PS4 version, results in the same PS5 version right? So either it works or not at all, upgraded or otherwise.

[Steven]

I'm not all that fussed about saving between PS4 and 5. But if you begin a game on PS5 and they upgrade it and that stops your progress, that's weak and would need addressing. Let's see what they say on that front as It would be a bit of an own goal to overlook that.

[Alex W.]

I get that the Xbox and PS implementations are different, my point is that CDPR has been talking up the generation jump for both versions like they’d work the same way.

[Mr. Gerbik]

Just now, Alex W. said:

I get that the Xbox and PS implementations are different, my point is that CDPR has been talking up the generation jump for both versions like they’d work the same way.

Yes. You're right. But that doesn't make it less confusing or unclear.

[Capp]

1 hour ago, Bojangle said:

Sony's backend is really not made for this, it's an absolute mess to work with compared to Microsoft and there's absolutely zero sign of them changing it anytime soon, sadly. Every version of a game, (physical, digital, special editions, re-releases, GOTY editions etc) is a different Title ID and not only that it's also different for Europe, America and Asia and each submission is handled separately. So if you're lucky and you're "only" doing a digital release for your title in those three regions, that's still 3 submissions you have to go through. Add a physical release, now you're doing six submissions! Updates planned for your game? Yep, six submissions every time. Any one of these can be failed too, whilst you'll pass without issue in the other regions. Their system is bonkers. Saves is a mine field. When submitting you CAN include the feature to read saves from other Title IDs but you're limited to linking a single Title ID. So you can't say, release a physical GOTY edition down the line and have ALL saves work. You can link one existing Title ID.

Microsoft on the other hand, submit a single build for a digital release, available in all regions.

 

They've not improved this much in the 10+ years since I was in the industry? Bloody hell.

[Uncle Mike]

That's what Bojangle is saying above, isn't it? You link to a (single) ID as being identical. So CDPR can presumably link the PS4 to the PS5 version, (at the potential cost of breaking the physical to digital link?) Or implement their own logic.

[Steven]

Re Cyberpunk in particular. I trust CDPR to give players on both systems the absolute best scenario they can - they seem to genuinely care about their customers, even after they've got their money.

[Mr. Gerbik]

9 minutes ago, Capp said:

 

They've not improved this much in the 10+ years since I was in the industry? Bloody hell.

At some point Microsoft made a clean break with early Xbox Live exactly because of this. As they went on, the early design decisions held their Xbox infrastructure back. Sony patched a lot of PSN functionality in well after the release of the PS3 in response to what the 360 was doing. But they never made the same clean break away from the earliest design choices that were far from ideal - think the whole difficulty with allowing users to change their PSN id for example. They've definitely improved, but they're also held back by the comparatively shoddy foundations of PSN. God knows what's impossible or at least very difficult to implement. I'm sure a lot of things they've thought about and genuinely want to do, but it takes time or simply isn't possible.

8 minutes ago, Steven said:

Re Cyberpunk in particular. I trust CDPR to give players on both systems the absolute best scenario they can - they seem to genuinely care about their customers, even after they've got their money.

Exactly this. If there's one developer willing to go the extra mile it's CDPR.

[Majora]

12 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

That's what Bojangle is saying above, isn't it? You link to a (single) ID as being identical. So CDPR can presumably link the PS4 to the PS5 version, (at the potential cost of breaking the physical to digital link?) Or implement their own logic.

 

Is the issue not that digital and physical have different title IDs as well though?

 

Eg, if I'm interpreting correctly, let's say you have the European PS5 version of Yakuza and want to link the saves to the PS4 version you have to choose just one of 6 title IDs. Any of the 3 regions physical or any of the 3 regions digital.

 

Now it would make sense to link it to the European version. Maybe a little annoying if you have a copy from a different region for whatever reason but at least somewhat understandable. But then you have to choose whether you link it to the digital or physical version. Again, may make sense to link digital to digital and physical to physical but still far from ideal, especially if Microsoft's system is as seamless as it sounds.

[Danster]

IO Interactive have said that Hitman 3 will incorporate 2 & 1 including saves, so I'm hoping (fingers crossed) that my PS4 digital editions of 2 & 1 will download on PS5 and pick up the saves AND then when 3 is released I can use that on PS5 too... 

[Minion]

I'm going to be fucking livid if my Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 saves do not carry over, there is over 2000 hours of pure From joy in those 2 saves.

[Bojangle]

1 minute ago, Minion said:

I'm going to be fucking livid if my Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 saves do not carry over, there is over 2000 hours of pure From joy in those 2 saves.

If you're just running them with BC it should be fine, with some caveats. I wouldn't expect to play Bloodborne digitally through PS+ collection and it to pick up your save from a physical edition, for example.

[rafaqat]

1 minute ago, Bojangle said:

If you're just running them with BC it should be fine, with some caveats. I wouldn't expect to play Bloodborne digitally through PS+ collection and it to pick up your save from a physical edition, for example.

 

Yup. I've already run into that.  To the point that if you swap between them you also have to re-download the game as well as lose your save.  Well that's what I had to do anyway.  Might be because disc was GOTY edition and PS+ version isn't.

[Ferine]

7 minutes ago, Danster said:

IO Interactive have said that Hitman 3 will incorporate 2 & 1 including saves, so I'm hoping (fingers crossed) that my PS4 digital editions of 2 & 1 will download on PS5 and pick up the saves AND then when 3 is released I can use that on PS5 too... 

I imagine the Hitman stuff will be server-based, as the game is already set up for that. So you won't retain your actual mid-mission saves, but all the progress you've made regarding Mastery and Challenges will carry over.

[Parksey]

10 minutes ago, Ferine said:

I imagine the Hitman stuff will be server-based, as the game is already set up for that. So you won't retain your actual mid-mission saves, but all the progress you've made regarding Mastery and Challenges will carry over.

 

Not technically PS5-related but have they said if the cross-saves are hardware-based, or whether it's all going to be account-based (think we all had to make an Io account when we first played right?)

 

I'm looking at maybe switching from a PS4 to Xbox main this-gen (though will likely get both) so it would be nice if it was the latter and Io could somehow magic up the completion data from the air. 

[HarryBizzle]

1 hour ago, Bojangle said:

Sony's backend is really not made for this, it's an absolute mess to work with compared to Microsoft and there's absolutely zero sign of them changing it anytime soon, sadly. Every version of a game, (physical, digital, special editions, re-releases, GOTY editions etc) is a different Title ID and not only that it's also different for Europe, America and Asia and each submission is handled separately. So if you're lucky and you're "only" doing a digital release for your title in those three regions, that's still 3 submissions you have to go through. Add a physical release, now you're doing six submissions! Updates planned for your game? Yep, six submissions every time. Any one of these can be failed too, whilst you'll pass without issue in the other regions. Their system is bonkers. Saves is a mine field. When submitting you CAN include the feature to read saves from other Title IDs but you're limited to linking a single Title ID. So you can't say, release a physical GOTY edition down the line and have ALL saves work. You can link one existing Title ID.

Microsoft on the other hand, submit a single build for a digital release, available in all regions.

 

Is there a reason they can't just start using the same Title ID for all versions?

[FiveFootNinja]

It sounds like some people here know a lot more about the Sony backend infrastructure than I do so I may be being naive, but from the point of view of developing web apps I find it baffling that save files are such a big issue in this day and age of gaming. Are they not at their core essentially just a database of game variables that get updated as you progress? And if so - in principle - why can't one just be duplicated and mapped to a new structure for another version of a game, with default variables for any gaps and a new SKU, etc... That is what we would do if we did a big product update, etc... just run an upgrade script on the save files to convert them into the newer format and bob would be your mother's brother.

 

I saw last night they have said Miles Morales will work as you would expect, you can put the PS4 disc in a PS5, it downloads the PS5 version and you play the game where you left off (e.g. Smart Delivery) so it can obviously work, and I also believe CDPR are the most likely to make it work as well given their push on the game spanning the generations. But the fact this is even a thing we are talking about astounds me.

[Quexex]

2 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

 

Is there a reason they can't just start using the same Title ID for all versions?

The Title ID is the SKU ID so no sadly that wouldn't work. It's a shame during my time at Sony our team had a lot of influence over the OS team and managed to get 'cross save' issues resolved. However it's been a good few years since our team got disbanded, it would seem a lot has changed internally since then. No one can talk about PS5 unless it comes from head office in SF now. So we have to wait for Jim (the finance guy ffs) to tell us all what the plan is! 

[Alex W.]

It sounds like it’s kind of analogous to iOS’s sandboxing. If the standard edition is SCE-19372 it can only access the directories for SCE-19372 and not the directories for the deluxe edition SCE-23751. Is that about right?

[HarryBizzle]

1 minute ago, Quexex said:

The Title ID is the SKU ID so no sadly that wouldn't work. It's a shame during my time at Sony our team had a lot of influence over the OS team and managed to get 'cross save' issues resolved. However it's been a good few years since our team got disbanded, it would seem a lot has changed internally since then. No one can talk about PS5 unless it comes from head office in SF now. So we have to wait for Jim (the finance guy ffs) to tell us all what the plan is! 

 

It feels like the current Sony is very, very different to the one that launched the PS4. The level of transparency is night and day. They haven't quite gone full Mattrick, but it feels like a lot of the people who shaped the PS4 have left or been sidelined.

[Steven]

5 minutes ago, FiveFootNinja said:

But the fact this is even a thing we are talking about astounds me.

 

Which is why Sony need to pull their fingers out now, they have to be aware of questions people still have. I want to know about the VR games I've bought and if they all work off the bat. Want to get rid of my Pro but want to know if things like Astrobot can just be DL'd from the store again and played (still haven't started it yet).

[Quexex]

1 minute ago, HarryBizzle said:

 

It feels like the current Sony is very, very different to the one that launched the PS4. The level of transparency is night and day. They haven't quite gone full Mattrick, but it feels like a lot of the people who shaped the PS4 have left or been sidelined.

Yup things have changed internally massively at Sony, Shu has been effectively demoted (although I think that might have been his choice), Andy House has moved on. Cerny is the only guiding light in this. There was also a massive internal battle for leadership where we ended up with Jim the finance guy rather than Shawn (who is one of the industries best) the games guy. This move in itself shows the move of power from Japan to US. Jim has moved to SF to run things (into the ground).

[Parappa]

Just got an email from Shopto advising I won't get a launch day console .  I assume all launch day preorders are gone elsewhere?

[Mr. Gerbik]

Did Jim the Finance Guy also decide to design the exterior of the PS5 all by himself by any chance?

[DonRumsfeld]

Regarding the saved game thing, is there no way of sticking the save on a USB stick and running it through some computer program to manipulate it to the right version.  Bar the header on the thing wouldn't the rest of the save information be the same (progress, etc)?

[FiveFootNinja]

Jim the finance guy at Sony sounds very similar to Ed the finance guy at Man Utd.