PlayStation 5 - Next gen is expensive

[footle]

1 hour ago, Broker said:

but I genuinely think that ensuring that every lone individual playing on your console has a microphone that they don’t need a headset for is more important to them that letting the three local multiplayer games that come out a year have access to easier second controllers.

Fact: every lone individual will have a microphone in the DS5 that is shipped with the console.

[Vemsie]

Both are money-hatting. MS with it's console launch exclusives, Sony with Avengers and Bethesda's timed exclusives. And it's shit. End of. I really hope that one of them doesn't buy WB Games, so that we are not locked into one console ecosystem for whatever Rocksteady makes next.

[Alex W.]

1 hour ago, Peb Kacharach said:

It’s simple: I won’t own a Dualshock 4 once I buy a PS5, so it doesn’t affect me at all. I’m also happy with the new features the DualSense will bring.

 

MS are offering something nobody asked for at the expense of delivering a controller with new features.

Not to keep banging on about this, but the Dual Sense is already heavily constrained by the fact that it has to work as a Dual Shock 4 on PS4 games. It’s literally that set of controls, plus a microphone, plus HD rumble, plus force triggers.

 

Conversely, it would hardly have shattered cross-gen compatibility for Microsoft to have added HD rumble and a microphone to the Xbox Series X pad. Heck, they could’ve sold it as an upgraded pad for the Xbox One too.

 

It’s nonsense across the board.

 

Edit - From both platform holders I mean, not from you.

[JPL]

5 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

Not to keep banging on about this, but the Dual Sense is already heavily constrained by the fact that it has to work as a Dual Shock 4 on PS4 games. It’s literally that set of controls, plus a microphone, plus HD rumble, plus force triggers.

 

Conversely, it would hardly have shattered cross-gen compatibility for Microsoft to have added HD rumble and a microphone to the Xbox Series X pad. Heck, they could’ve sold it as an upgraded pad for the Xbox One too.

 

It’s nonsense across the board.

 

Edit - From both platform holders I mean, not from you.

What’s HD rumble? I think the Xbox pad has force triggers and standard rumble (SD?), but I honestly don’t think it adds much.

[Alex W.]

Actually, now that I think about it, it’s kind of dumb that Microsoft are really acting like the Dual Sense is a convention-shattering change to how games control and they wouldn’t dream of making your current controllers obsolete that way.
 

It is a buff Dual Shock 4 in a mankini with kinds of force feedback that Nintendo and Microsoft pads already have, and a microphone. Calm doon.

[Alex W.]

4 minutes ago, JPL said:

What’s HD rumble? I think the Xbox pad has force triggers and standard rumble (SD?), but I honestly don’t think it adds much.

It’s the rumble Switch pads have, using a linear actuator instead of a skinny weight. On the iPhone it’s called “Taptic” feedback. Basically you’ve got a more subtle and controllable rumble.

[footle]

@Alex W. I think that’s the point. Microsoft aren’t claiming that the DS5 is some earth shattering improvement...

[HarryBizzle]

I agree with most of Broker’s post. To be clear, I don’t think Microsoft are doing this because they love me. 
 

I just think it’s reasonable for us to support these amoral corporate entities in making more consumer friendly decisions by voting with our wallets. 
 

I don’t think the controller thing is enough for me to not buy a console from Sony in the same way the initial Xbox One reveal put me off that completely, but I think it’s crappy and I’ll happily moan about it on a forum. 

[JPL]

17 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

It’s the rumble Switch pads have, using a linear actuator instead of a skinny weight. On the iPhone it’s called “Taptic” feedback. Basically you’ve got a more subtle and controllable rumble.

Ah right. It must be a really subtle difference then. I can’t think of any Switch games that have made me appreciate that kind of rumble more than any Xbox or PS4 games.

[CarloOos]

2 hours ago, Peb Kacharach said:

It’s simple: I won’t own a Dualshock 4 once I buy a PS5, so it doesn’t affect me at all. I’m also happy with the new features the DualSense will bring.

 

MS are offering something nobody asked for at the expense of delivering a controller with new features.

 

Nobody will expect Joycons to work with the next Nintendo console. Nobody is losing their minds that Nintendo sell custom NES and SNES controllers for Switch rather than an adaptor which lets you use any originals you have lying around. Backwards compatibility with controllers isn’t an expectation, and whilst it’s nice for those who will use it, MS are only offering it score bit of positive PR.

 

Er, no. Lots of people complained their 360 pads weren't going to work on the Xbox One (which was annoying but did have a seemingly feasible technical reason, a completely different wireless standard). It's been a complaint before, and was one of many reasons 360 owners found it easy to make the switch to PS4.

 

Nintendo effectively completely redesign their controllers with each console, so that's not a like-for-like comparison. Sony have been selling the same pad for 20 years, with minimal modifications. You could probably play most PS4 games with a PS1 dual shock, that's how little the design has changed. Nothing they're adding to the Dual Sense is going to alter how it controls the vast majority of games. This is a nakedly arbitrary decision designed to shift extra pads.

[RubberJohnny]

Where's this idea that Nintendo don't allow you to use old pads come from?

 

The Wii supported Gamecube pads, didn't it? And the Wii U supported Wii controllers. It's only the Switch that's been different, because it's a handheld system.

[CarloOos]

7 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

The Wii supported Gamecube pads, didn't it? And the Wii U supported Wii controllers. It's only the Switch that's been different, because it's a handheld system.

 

It did, but only for BC games I'm guessing? Was it the same with the Wii U?

[Calashnikov]

7 minutes ago, JPL said:

Ah right. It must be a really subtle difference then. I can’t think of any Switch games that have made me appreciate that kind of rumble more than any Xbox or PS4 games.

Get in the Carbonated Sea

[Alex W.]

9 minutes ago, CarloOos said:

 

It did, but only for BC games I presume? Was it the same with the Wii U?

A lot of more “normal” Wii games like the Resi 4 port and SSBB supported them controllers. They’re not a 1:1 match for the Wii Classic Controller but they’re close enough, and generally nicer to use. I think a lot of the early WiiU games used Wii remotes as multiplayer controllers but that fell by the wayside.
 

I really just wish either company would call the other on its bullshit posturing but that would be M.A.D.

 

”It’s just a Dual Shock 4 with extra bits you obosolescence-hungry misers.”

 

”Well at least it has motion control, like every non Xbox pad since 2007, you hacks.”
 

“Well your boosts are stupid.”

 

”Your face is stupid.”

 

etc

[teddymeow]

I just wish the DualSense had rear bumpers like wot you can add to the PS4 with that peripheral.

[Broker]

It’s fascinating how consumer loyalty works. It seems to me, and I might be wrong here, that the Xbox platform actually has a lot more vocal fans than the PlayStation does. You’re much more likely to encounter someone online who actually likes Microsoft and genuinely wants to advocate for their Xbox and tell you why they like it. By most metrics, Microsoft’s marketing is working much better than Sony’s with regards to creating consumer advocates. And games are traditionally quite a fertile ground for these wars. But Sony don’t have many passionate advocates. Those of us who are regularly accused of loving Sony are much more likely to be people who don’t like Microsoft. It’s not that people don’t defend PlayStation stuff when it’s criticised, but that Sony seem way less likely to have garnered actual loyalty from people who buy their products. You don’t see a lot of PlayStation avatars around.

 

This creates a bizarre dissonance, where the Xbox advocates are a larger, more vocal group than the Sony ones. And of course they are, they have more to say, more to offer. If you like what they’re doing, it must be baffling to see such a large amount of indifference to it. And we’re all primed for passionate arguments, but there’s nobody in Sony’s side. I think that’s what makes Xbox people seem so zealous, they’re the only ones left who still believe. Sony fanboys are thin on the ground, replaced by Last of Us fanboys who have no specific reason to argue with Xbox fans.

 

We all obviously have biases based on our personal experiences with companies and their products. But there’s a strange dynamic now where the most popular console is most popular because it’s the least weird, which is totally uninspiring and creates very little passion or loyalty. I think maybe those of us left arguing are really struggling with the fact that the opinions and purchases of people like us aren’t very relevant to the overall success or failure of these things anymore. We want to shout the loudest and say that our favourite or least favourite thing is bad or good and then see that narrative carry through to the media and decide who wins. But it seems like the time when that was important might be ending.

[Stanley]

2 hours ago, Broker said:

I think what bothers people is the endless obsession with painting Microsoft as some virtuous and kind entity that is being pro consumer rather than acknowledging what they actually are, which is a company who aren’t doing very well in their marketplace. Xbox one controllers work with Series X because that makes it cheaper to buy series X, which it needs to be if they want people to buy one. Gamepass makes all their games free because that makes their offerings cheaper. They’re supporting cross play because they want their servers to be less obviously empty. We know Microsoft would be just as bad about these things if they were in a dominant position because when they designed a console from what they thought was a dominant position they were. These moves are about as pro consumer as the fact you could buy a Dreamcast so cheap the month before they stopped selling them. 
 

There’s a very real facet of this that can be good for consumers. And Microsoft are absolutely unique, as they can cut into their Xbox profits deeply as it’s not their primary revenue source. Having a company competing in an open marketplace who don’t need to profit allows them to push their competitors to lower prices, which is a great tactic for improving prices across the board. The danger is that everything is devalued, which is a real danger with Gamepass. Or that you’re trapped on outdated technology like a CPU that was designed when Limp Bizkit were still popular. 
 

These things could shake out well or badly for us as consumers, but whatever happens won’t be because either giant corporation were our friends. PS4 marketing had some friends, because they weren’t sure they would win. Rubber faced Cerny and that guy he handed a game to we’re a lot more visible last time. Because pretending to be your mate is another marketing strategy, and smiling Phil does that for Microsoft now. Their PR has been incredible for the last few years, and they’ve successfully convinced a large number of people that they’re some sort of Robin Hood figure, boldly saving the games industry, and numerous people seem to have fallen for that completely and now parrot the pro consumer line constantly, as though it’s anything other than a marketing slogan that they’re particularly fond of from a company who aren’t doing very well. 
 

I thought that having to pay money for online services was fucking bullshit when Microsoft invented that. It wasn’t standard practice. I wasn’t used to paying for it. It seemed cynical to me. But I was told quite frequently by the Microsoft faithful that it was a necessary price to pay for progress. Nobody took it seriously, but I genuinely think that ensuring that every lone individual playing on your console has a microphone that they don’t need a headset for is more important to them that letting the three local multiplayer games that come out a year have access to easier second controllers.
 

Is that forward thinking or anti consumer? I’m not zealously invested in either advertising campaign so I’m not sure. But there’s a lot of certainty about the long term value of a lot of unproven things from people who like Microsoft, which I think can be irritating if you don’t think those things sound valuable, and a lot of scepticism of the long term value of what Sony are doing, which can be irritating if you think it might have value. 

For Limp Bizkit alone, thank fuck they are no more. 

[Pob]

6 minutes ago, teddymeow said:

I just wish the DualSense had rear bumpers like wot you can add to the PS4 with that peripheral.

 

This is actually the main thing that'll ensure the XSX is my multiplatform console for the foreseeable. I'm so used to having two paddles on the back of the pad that it's like the PS5 pad has two fewer buttons than the XB1 Elite.

[Uzi]

I have zero doubt MS are currently the more consumer friendly company. This is not even up to debate. Gamepass ended that debate - the legacy controllers are just a bonus - I have four xbox one controllers but they honestly gather fucking dust anyway so might just sell them - the days of local MP are limited to two controllers at most with online play - it isn't the N64 era anymore. 

 

The only downside for me (after the HUGE upside of PC gamepass meaning don't need an xbox full stop ever) is that the legacy support does hold back MS to some degree for a little while (no first party series x only games for a while etc) - eventually let's say amazing new controller tech comes out - it hasn't happened recently but it did with analogue controllers/rumble/triggers etc and eventually you will need to dump legacy support as it will eventually hold you back. I don't think haptic is at that level personally but personally I'd rather devs have to worry about as few variables as possible - which is consistently why console outperforms pc's visually last gen (at the same hardware level - try running TLOU2 on a PC in spec with a PS4 - good fucking luck).

 

I think brand and tradition will be challenges for MS and this is a long game play and I wouldn't be shocked that early on despite all these moves - PS5 will still very comfortably outdo Xbox in both brand desirability and sales. People still heavily want the next Playstation and MS are in this transition phase of hardware flexibility and moving from the traditional model to service based. 

[robotattack]

54 minutes ago, teddymeow said:

I just wish the DualSense had rear bumpers like wot you can add to the PS4 with that peripheral.

 

I find it bizarre that they'd introduce a peripheral like that as the PS4 enters its twilight years (or rather months) and not make that functionality part of the next console. 

[Uncle Mike]

2 minutes ago, robotattack said:

I find it bizarre that they'd introduce a peripheral like that as the PS4 enters its twilight years (or rather months) and not make that functionality part of the next console. 

 

It truly seems crazy.

[Petrousgyre]

Yeah, you have to assume there's been a 180 somewhere at Sony HQ.

[Pob]

I wonder if the back-button add-on was as hard to find everywhere as in the UK? I sold mine for £85 on ebay which suggests a certain level of desirability!

 

The crap thing is, its add-on nature meant it was bulky and quite uncomfortable (for me, personally - I know others like it). Compare to the paddles on the XB1 Elite v2 which are very low profile and don't bulk out the back of the pad at all. I was really hoping the DualSense would integrate them like this.

[Quest]

37 minutes ago, Uzi said:

the days of local MP are limited to two controllers at most with online play - 

 

This isn't true. I play with friends every week and there are more games available with local 1-4 multiplayer than we'd ever have time to play.

 

Edit: I realise now you might have just been talking about your own gaming time, but the popular myth that local multiplayer is dead is a bit strange to me. 

 

 

[Uzi]

15 minutes ago, Quest said:

 

This isn't true. I play with friends every week and there are more games available with local 1-4 multiplayer than we'd ever have time to play.

 

Edit: I realise now you might have just been talking about your own gaming time, but the popular myth that local multiplayer is dead is a bit strange to me. 

 

 

Of course anecdotally people still play locally but I mentioned the N64 era as online play with friends is far more popular and I doubt anyone would dispute that. People huddling around a single TV with four controllers is likely a minority in comparison. 

[Stanley]

4 player local multiplayer is very expensive unless everyone brings their own pad, it’s still very much alive and well though, especially on Switch. I don’t think I’ve bought an extra PS or MS pad though since the PS2 and original Xbox days - obviously online gaming has changed things a lot. And yes I realise I am contradicting what I’ve just said 

[Kevvy Metal]

1 hour ago, Broker said:

It’s fascinating how consumer loyalty works. It seems to me, and I might be wrong here, that the Xbox platform actually has a lot more vocal fans than the PlayStation does. You’re much more likely to encounter someone online who actually likes Microsoft and genuinely wants to advocate for their Xbox and tell you why they like it. By most metrics, Microsoft’s marketing is working much better than Sony’s with regards to creating consumer advocates. And games are traditionally quite a fertile ground for these wars. But Sony don’t have many passionate advocates. Those of us who are regularly accused of loving Sony are much more likely to be people who don’t like Microsoft. It’s not that people don’t defend PlayStation stuff when it’s criticised, but that Sony seem way less likely to have garnered actual loyalty from people who buy their products. You don’t see a lot of PlayStation avatars around.

 

This creates a bizarre dissonance, where the Xbox advocates are a larger, more vocal group than the Sony ones. And of course they are, they have more to say, more to offer. If you like what they’re doing, it must be baffling to see such a large amount of indifference to it. And we’re all primed for passionate arguments, but there’s nobody in Sony’s side. I think that’s what makes Xbox people seem so zealous, they’re the only ones left who still believe. Sony fanboys are thin on the ground, replaced by Last of Us fanboys who have no specific reason to argue with Xbox fans.

 

We all obviously have biases based on our personal experiences with companies and their products. But there’s a strange dynamic now where the most popular console is most popular because it’s the least weird, which is totally uninspiring and creates very little passion or loyalty. I think maybe those of us left arguing are really struggling with the fact that the opinions and purchases of people like us aren’t very relevant to the overall success or failure of these things anymore. We want to shout the loudest and say that our favourite or least favourite thing is bad or good and then see that narrative carry through to the media and decide who wins. But it seems like the time when that was important might be ending.

 

The exact opposite was true 14 years ago, when the Xbox 360 was the place to be playing games and it was the PS3 that had plenty of issues and things to be critical about. Brand loyalist get very loud when they're favourite thing is on the back foot.  

[Jg15]

The Playstation brand has many things on its side, namely a larger legacy. Who here hasn't owned a PlayStation at one point in their lives? I personally have many happy gaming memories with Playstation, as an early OG PS adopter and especially the PS2 era, some fantastic games there.

 

That being said I agree with Broker regarding Xbox, it has a far more louder and passionate fan base that I think weathered things like the Xbox One Launch storm and became stronger for it. I also think MS did a better job of engendering that fanbase when first implementing Xbox Live with its freind lists, achievements etc on the 360 and continues to build and foster a community with things like the Xbox Ambassador program (which I dont believe Sony have an equivalent of).

 

I see Playstation as the everyman console, appeals to all. Everyone knows what a Playstation is, including my 90 yr old nan. Even during the PS3 era it still sold well, most of my non gaming mates gave the 360 a wide berth as they didn't know what an Xbox was or didn't care, the one with the PS branding was the safe bet. Sony doesn't need to engender a fandom like Xbox, it has the everyman in its pocket.

 

BTW, plenty of Playstation crackpot/loonies around, just go to Resetera or Twitter/YouTube, the usual places!

[Harsin]

It has nothing to do with any particular brand. People who already have an unhealthy amount of loyalty to a particular brand will always be even worse if they perceive they’re on the ‘losing’ side in the imaginary console sports league in their head. Go back to the PS3 launch on here and you’ll see exactly the same kind of small group making fanboy posts banging on about media bias and whatnot when everyone was lolling about giant enemy crabs and Lair (remember Lair?).

[monkeydog]

6 minutes ago, Jg15 said:

The Playstation brand has many things on its side, namely a larger legacy.

 

The sad part on that front is that Sony being behind MS on backward compatibility.  Playstation has a much richer back catalogue. Unless Sony can spring a lovely surprise on us.  The PS5 should be powerful enough to do good BC for everything.